|
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
70 members (anotherscott, AaronSF, apianostudent, beeboss, brdwyguy, benkeys, Abdulrohmanoman, 16 invisible),
2,221
guests, and
426
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 81
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 81 |
Yes, I really want to try to do this. It will be fun. Many of my friends will be there and there is not much supervision. meaning the students run everything or almost. As for my lessons, well I am putting in teh time and effort. no less than 3-4 hours a day including the day of the lessons, which are planned late in the day. The lessons themselves are suddenly longer and I feel totally drained afterwards. He is assigning me brand new pieces mostly Debussy stuff, sometimes nameless.. and expects me as is his "rule", to be "performance ready" all the time. with only 3 days between lessons, it can be hard. But I think I can do it and I am motivated to do the other "opportunity/crisis/whatever.. If things go well on thursday, I shall inquire.. and may be live to tell...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678 |
SanteFePlayer - again there is no disagreement between us though you probably see it that way. Essentially we're saying the same thing: I just wanted to bring the facts to light. Taking on more responsibility can lead to tighter focusing rather than being scattered: it depends on how much of a handle you have on it and what you do with it. "Watering down" happens if you try to do a lot of things at once so that your efforts are all over the place, but if you know how to be in one thing at a time and you have organized your time that won't happen. Prioritizing does not mean bending to someone's will, it means being dead sure what your values and goals are, because that makes decision making much easier. Elise, you've weighed things and made your decision. Do let us know how it goes.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 81
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 81 |
well.. just back..a mix of a demoralizing and interesting lesson. Despite having memorized and played technically well, I am apparently totally lacking in the art of interpreting Monsieur Debussy.. but I mean totally ignorant. and my teacher made it clear to me at the rate of seventeen "absolutely NOT"s per minute (give or take). It did not help that I do not have any books about Debussy and his times yet.. I did read plenty on the internet but that did not qualify.. OH and the idea of playing at that "opportunity",, well the answer was also a "No. Absolutely NOT!.." ON the other hand, now I know that Debussy and Saint-Saens were enemies, that Debussy used non western scales, that someone thought he copied from them (?Ravel.. I forgot what he said here).. part me thinks well Manhattan is a big town and that gig may technically be in the Bronx, practically in the town next door.. so may be I can still get away with it..
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678 |
So, (curious), did your teacher tell you how to interpret Debussy? Was that within the 17 notes per minute as a demo? Anything specific that you could catch from that? Have you been taught how to go about interpreting a composer? Debussy? Did you know you were supposed to interpret him? Are you asked to interpret other composers, and have you been taught how to go about this?
Like, there are certain things which are in the "d'uh factor" we should not ask because it is assumed we will know how to do them. Others that have an approach or two so I'm curious about this.
No idea about "the opportunity". Best of luck coming to a decision.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 81
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 81 |
that's funny KS.. he did say a lot of things but he would not play for me. In fact he said that I should not be listening to anyone's interpretation at this time.. (does that make sense?) I need some time to digest all that was said, but what I remember now is that i should be approaching his music very differently from the "romantic" sonata and that Debussy "does not sing".. Ok it was not 17 times but there were a lot of interruptions, so much that I lost track of how to resume (I can't 'start from measure 16 "off the top of my head, without the score).. you can imagine how things can spin downwards then.. I am sure there is a lot of wisdom to all this.. I just need to be able to "see" it..(Impressionist paintings is another thing I am supposed to be looking at). the thing is I had planned to listen to some different interpretations of Debussy ( I can use my dad's rhapsody account)but i am a bit confused about the recommendation that I do not..
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678 |
(Summarizing a way too long post from before) It sounds like you are used to listening to good pianists in order to understand the interpretation, and your teacher's idea now is that you should not listen to anything at all this time. This idea seems new and a bit confusing to you. It seems as if your teacher is trying to bring you into a new kind of musicianship - he's already indicated that he wants push you forward this summer. In fact he said that I should not be listening to anyone's interpretation at this time.. (does that make sense?) Yes - because he wants you to learn to create your own interpretation. When we hear others' interpretations, our hearing of it can stay on the surface. Creating your own means you go deeply into the music, your understanding of it, and it comes from within the music and yourself. When you've learned to do that, then listening to the interpretation of the greats also becomes more meaningful, because you have an inside view. Impressionist paintings is another thing I am supposed to be looking at) If you google "Debussy + Impressionism" you get over 1 million hits. The first article describes Debussy's work in terms of Impressionism, while in the second Debussy is insulted by the idea and declares what he's trying to do. I could imagine as a student, becoming immersed with the idea of impressionism - what do these colours and "suggestions of a picture" mean - experimenting at the piano with the idea of colours - and ideas starting to mesh with the piece. Maybe your teacher is thinking of such a process. Probably the "16 interruptions" contain 16 clues, if you could go back through the piece to each interruption and find what advice is hidden in them. Well, those were yesterday's thoughts, but a bit more succinctly, in case they are of any use.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 81
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 81 |
Great KS.. why don't you explore and tell me more!!! I am already gearing up to memorize monday's piece while re-doing this one since I "massacred" it so horribly. It feels like there is barely enough time to get this stuff to sink in.. Thanks for the analysis though.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678 |
Fine, I do your homework, and you do mine. I don't think our respective teachers would be thrilled, though.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678 |
I must admit that I got fascinated by your teacher's angle of visual art etc. and lost time on the computer. As a violin student primarily, I found myself listening to Heifetz play "Maid with the Flaxen Hair" - what struck me is that this piece could have been very lyrical, "singing", Romantic, but it wasn't. Instead, it was like splashes of colour, impressions .... erm, Impressionistic painting. There it was, your teacher's "Dubussy is not sung - impressionism". I bet your teacher wants the next piece to be treated the same way. I'm curious about one thing: while developing a piece does he want this "artistic understanding" (Impressionism, intent etc.) to be done first before tackling the piece, or added on after you get the basic correct playing? It's intriguing - of course I don't have to do the work - I'll butt out now.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 81
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 81 |
Originally posted by keystring:
I'm curious about one thing: while developing a piece does he want this "artistic understanding" (Impressionism, intent etc.) to be done first before tackling the piece, or added on after you get the basic correct playing?
NOT!! I am supposed to have all that taken care of during my practice, and show up memorized and playing it pretty well. Then during the lesson, we work on interpretation and other errors of mine.. He has very little tolerance for pure technical mistakes (thunderstorms ensue).. We quickly sight read the new piece at the end of the lesson and then "I am on my own". The problem with this system is that it takes alot of preparation and at twice a week lessons, it is exhausting to me. It also feels pretty lonely.. "solitary piano boot camp" is what I call it in my mind .. I have to say that I do enjoy the learning part, the moving forward and the more complicated approach.. I am also hearing my teacher talk more than before. It used to be more like giving me instructions and drills. Now he can "spin" for a while (break for my hands and my concentration!- oops I forget that we are on some kind of teacher forum) and he looks sort of interested in what we are doing.. which is good I guess.. But keeping up will be difficult for the whole entire summer.. In other sad news, he is having me work with a substitute, while he makes his much anticipated (by both of us) summer vaca... although if the sub is who I think it is, it won't be half as bad.. I never heard a violin rendition of fille aux cheveux de lin (she is on my list for later on). I will look it up. wonder if the violin version is covered by the ban!! I also wonder if other teachers approach this the same way.. Gotta go. i have been needing giant breakfasts lately..
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678 |
I can see the difficulties in this - exhaustion doesn't sound good. Hang in there and keep us posted.
It might have been a different "fille" - it was late and I was tired - but I remember listening for "impressionism", hearing it, thinking "This could be played like a romantic and lyrical song, almost as though the romance was missing, yaddayadda..." and then his rendition made sense.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 81
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 81 |
Oh KS. if in your explorations, you find out about these non-western scales, would you please let me know.. Tahnks
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678 |
I had a Saint Saens last year which "sounded funny" in places - or rather I was inclined to play something different than written until I learned of this. Two things: just being aware of it helps you make sense of what you're playing. Different scale arrangements (modes?) create moods, colours, shades - the crude example of this is major and minor.
The only way to get a handle on it is by playing, observing, maybe analyzing parts of your music - the act of practicing & developing the music with understanding. There is no shortcut and it can't be transfered. Are you taking theory? Have you gone past the usual majors and minors?
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 81
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 81 |
Theory is not exactly my forte but of course I learnt about the majors and minors. But I think he meant scales that are totally different, like for example in Arabisch music where the steps are less than a semi-tone? (I hope I am not saying something totally stupid here). Any references from the teachers here as to Debussy's use of unusual scales?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678 |
Ok, here goes. The major and minor scales are actually two "modes" which each create a distinctive mood - major tending toward happy & sunny, minor being sad and blue. The intervals of tones and semitones are arranged in a consistent order for a major scale, and for a melodic or harmonic minor scale. In a melody without accompaniment that gives a mood. With harmony the moods are even stronger. There is your first "tone colour" if you will. There are a lot of other scale types. Each has the order of tones and semitones arranged in a certain way. That gives "colour" or "mood", and lends itself to particular harmonies. Some, such as the whole tone scale, are modern inventions. Examples: - blues scale - whole tone: 7 notes, all a whole tone apart. Example: C D E F# G# A# C. (B would be B# but that is C enharmonically.) If you play this you will hear the mood or colour of this strange scale. - octatonic: WT ST WT ST repeatedly (WT = whole tone, ST = semitone), or ST WT ST WT Then you have all the "church modes" which preceded the modern scale. Each mode has a different arrangement of tones and semitones creating a different colour or mood. You can discover the arrangement easily as well as hearing their mood by playing ** white keys only ** as follows: Ionian - C to C (modern major scale) Dorian - D to D Phrygian - E to E Lydian - F to F Mixolydian - G to G Aeolian - A to A (modern natural minor) Locrian - B to B (rarely if ever used) Some or all of these would have been Debussy's pallette. At least if you find these scales being referred to you'll have an idea what they're about. The best is to play them to get a feel of what they're about. The music you were thinking of is typical of India and China and I don't know where else. They use microtones which are tiny intervals less than a semitone in size. But they would not be meant here. For one thing, as a tuned instrument, the piano cannot play microtones (unless it's badly out of tune )
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 611
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 611 |
Hi, Elise The scales used in the Arabic (and I think Indian) music are actually much finer than our own twelve-toned scale. They actually divide into quarter tones and finer. To our western-trained ears, it almost sounds like they are just off-pitch, but the wonderful, wandering melodies they achieve are really wonderful to listen to. Of course we cannot play these scales on a piano, which is hardwired to the 12-tone chromatic paradigm. There are indeed different scales used even in the music we are more familiar with. I don't recall their names offhand, but it's a question of the whole-half relationships and their order. For instance if you played all white notes but started on D - that's one. Playing all black keys would be the Pentatonic Scale, which we tend to think of as being Oriental. Wind chimes are often tuned to this scale. I'm at work and therefore am surrounded by geophysical theory books rather than music theory books - but if you did a Google search on musical scales or musical modes, you'd probably get some good information on this question. Alas, I have not had the priviledge to play any Debussy yet, but I know he does invoke some creative scalar and harmonic relationships. As for getting the impressionistic musicality / feel, I would suggest (in all your "spare time" - ha!) you try to listen to a lot of Debussy. This of course goes for other composers as well, whomever you have been assigned. Debussy, being impressionistic, was often trying to actually evoke a specific image to come to your mind with his compositions. In some ways this can make it easier - if you can dig up just what it is that 'most' folks imagine in the music, you can use these images to try and shape your own interpretation. Alternatively, you could just try to get your mitts on several different recordings of the same piece, listen to them all and try to decide which appeals the most to you. This will inspire you to treat the piece in a certain way artistically. (I did this with great success with my own teacher, whose recording was the one I chose to be a bigger influence on me. When I brought the piece to the lesson the next week and played it for him, he said "Oh, very nice, I really like the way you're approaching this part and that part!" )
SantaFe_Player Heels down, and tickle the bit.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 81
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 81 |
Thanks for your responses. I obviously need to read up more about this some day.I want to mention that the use of non western scales as it was being discussed does not necessarily refer to D's piano music- if taht makes any more sense ? either that or I completely misunderstood. ..My attention span expires every now and then.. definitely by minute 50 of the lesson.. we were on 75 I think during that discussion..
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678 |
Elise, you'll probably get most of your answers by googling Debussy + Impressionism. I think the scales are discussed. These are NOT non-Western scales - they are extremely Western scales for the most part. Here's a start: "Debussy's String Quartet in G minor .... In this work he utilized the Phrygian mode as well as less standard scales, such as the whole-tone , which creates a sense of floating, ethereal harmony." [Wikepedia] 5 minutes of playing through some of these scales might give you a feeling for scale types and mood. Wikepedia The rest is yours.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,896
4000 Post Club Member
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,896 |
Does anyone think you can play well and absorb the lesson while walking a tightrope?
In another thread the word belittlement came up.
Teaching and providing a list of the Debussy resources he wants you to read, see, or hear, would be helpful to his students.
Since he's not providing it, perhaps you should make that list for yourself like a term paper outline - and over time (not at once) you would pursue information of things Debussy.
Your list will get longer as you learn more and more. It is not something to do overnight - it is a long term, in depth study.
Best wishes, again and again.
Betty
|
|
|
|
|
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,408
Posts3,349,457
Members111,637
|
Most Online15,252 Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|