Hi.

I've found several piano teachers in my area, all charging different rates. I plan to call them, but what should I ask them on the phone? If I sit in on a lesson, what do I look for? Thanks.

First of all, it depends on what type of music you want to play: classical, jazz, pop, a variety of different types. Some teachers can only really teach one style, so make sure you know what you want, and whether your teacher can really teach it.

(Assuming you're an adult) I would also find out a.) if they're experienced teaching adults, and b.) if they have any prejudices or "problems" with adult beginners (I'm assuming you're a beginner). I'm aware of some teachers out there (ahem) who don't enjoy dealing with adult students, and I suspect that makes the experience most unpleasant for both teacher and student...

Also, you should probably err toward someone with strong training in music theory, as well as at least a reasonable amount of experience performing. Find out what their educational background is.

Other questions:
How long have they been teaching? Maybe ask how many students they have. Do they have a studio, come to you, flexible...? Do they work within a free-form curriculum or "grades"? Do you, as their student, have the opportunity to play in recitals? Do you have the opportunity to play with other musicians? (more likely if you go to a music school, I guess)

That's a start, anyway... Good luck.

Hi,
Kat gives you very good advice. Be sure to send her a check for the good suggestions.
I suggest you sign up for an introductory lesson with each teacher you are interested in, pay them their full rate and then choose the one you like best and sign up for a three month committment. Few teachers will balk at a one time full rate lesson, and most will be happy to do one lesson first to see if they have the kind of information that you need and to see if they can deal with your personality (and you theirs). I always allow myself the out of deciding on whether or not to take a student by telling them I will get back to them on whether or not I will teach them regular lessons so that if they seem problematic I can choose not to take on their problems by seeing them every week.

Good advice kat!

This is generally because the teacher is less skilled as opposed to having some weird "predisposition" towards children. The ability to teach an intelligent, motivated, inquisitive adult is what separates the good teachers from the not-so-good ones.

The teachers that I have experience with in my area give the introductory lessons for free. Do you refund the cost of the introductory lesson if you decide not to take the student on?

Well, I'm an adult (almost). I moved here a few years ago and thus had to drop my piano teacher. After a 3-year break from the piano, I would really like to get back into playing. I've been able to teach myself the intermediate songs, but I would like the help of a teacher to bring me up to the more advanced level.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Hi,
Horace-refunding money for a music lesson that was given? I think all teachers would go broke if they did that. Is there a way to un-take a lesson?

Well, I'm sure they get their money's worth. But a one-time lesson is probably not something that most prospective students would willingly pay for if they knew ahead of time that it was only going to be the one time. But of course they don't know it's only going to be one time, so it's a gamble. The teachers in my area take that gamble upon themselves by doing the introductory getting-to-know-you lesson for free, but if the market bears otherwise for you, then that's ok too!

Hi,
Just for clarification's sake:
As a mutual courtesy to prospective students coming into my program, I always allow them and me an out in case we don't get along. That way, if they don't like my style or personality or I don't like theirs, we don't continue the lessons. I still reserve the right to not teach someone even if they have applied to the program just like any college or pro teacher would. Often, there is no room in the schedule for new people here as well.
I would have to say the market does bear otherwise for me here and I realize it is not the same in all areas.
I make it a known fact with my prospective students when they apply that one thing I don't do is try and keep them coming week after week after week to take their money. I give them the information and training they need as fast as they are able to absorb it. I had some lessons when I was younger where it was obvious to me that the teacher was slowing my progress in order to keep me paying them, and it made me pretty mad. Students that come into my program for specific short term needs do pay a higher rate for special training but they are comfortable in knowing that once I feel they have achieved their goals and they feel so as well, they can move onto their professional careers without me badgering them to keep showing up.

Rob, I think that's a very fair and honorable teaching philosophy!

I don't think it's right to give a free lesson, it's the student's call to take a one-time lesson, and usually one-time lesson doesn't really make any difference in your progress, but the time that you spend with that teacher is a time that he or she can schedule another person in, so the teacher has every right to ask to be paid for, in addition, she or he still gave you knowledges within that one time, so the knowledge is what you are paying for...not to even mention the time.

Right or not, if I were a teacher without a full studio, I would most eagerly give free introductory lessons, as they're probably a good way to increase the number of long-term students. It's just market forces, with both parties entering into it eyes wide open. I'm not sure where right vs wrong ever enters into it. (Note: the free introductory lessons I'm familiar with are never more than a half-hour in length.)

Anyone who finds a good teacher who makes such a generous offer should consider themselves extremely fortunate and be respectful of the equation. Would you expect your physician to offer you an initial appointment and not expect payment for their time and skill? Would an accountant file your income taxes for you for free the first time you utilize their services? Many teachers teach long days full of lessons, then try to find a little time for working on their own playing, and also trying to reserve a small portion of their day for the other demands of home and family. Most teachers are not being paid at premium rates. Good teachers usually love what they do, but that is no reason to expect them to give away 30-60 minutes of their limited time in order to accommodate someone's decisionmaking process. In my opinion, you can't always make an immediate assessments of the viability of a teacher/student relationship based on an introductory lesson. I think most veteran teachers can certainly orchestrate an initial lesson that is helpful, articulate, and can be fairly pleasant--even if over the long haul they prove to be less than a good match. I've certainly had that experience with teachers (AND doctors). The suggestion to request an introductory lesson for which the teacher would be paid is a very good one. When looking for a teacher, get good recommendations if that is possible, budget what you can for your "hunting" expedition, pay them for their professional time and use your best judgment and intuition about which teacher is the best for you. If a teacher has been highly recommended to you by people you respect and that teacher indicates your introductory lesson will be gratis, express your gratitude. I would also encourage you to plan to pay them whether or not they offer a free lesson.

I appreciate the impassioned defense of piano teachers' valuable time, but let's take a step back here please. I'm referring to as-advertised, long-standing studio-policy free 30 minute introductory lessons in this thread. I did not recommend that people request free introductory lessons if they are not normally offered. I was just interested in how one particular teacher who didn't give free introductory lessons handled situations in which he chose not to continue with that student. I then responded that it was perfectly fine and ok!

Every decent studio should have firm policies about this, so requests or haggling should never enter into it!

Here's a thought experiment for you: Identical twin teachers move into the same town, which had no teachers to start with. One offers free introductory lessons and one doesn't. Which teacher will make the most money in the long term, assuming there's not so much demand that both will fill up their studios immediately?

Hi,
It is nice to see teachers and pianists standing up for their value in this thread. To answer the question put by Horace, the answer is simple: the teacher with the best policy agreement wins.

I'm not sure what you mean by "best policy agreement", Rob. But the point of the thought experiment was to make it obvious that free introductory lessons are offered as an act of self interest.

I would say no free lessons period...that doesn't mean that a teacher is not good, nor offering free lesson will sure pulling long-term students.

I agree with derkerli, why when it comes to music that people are thinking about free-trial, and nobody even come close to try to test out their doctors, dentists, or lawyers.

I think there are some respect issue agaist teachers in general, and particularly music teachers.

Again, why?

The simple answer is "market forces". It's very seductive to think that people deserve to be able to make a high standard of living for being good at something (such as teaching piano).

But that money has to _come_ from someone. And if those someones have other higher priority uses for their money, then they aren't being "disrespectful". They are being perfectly normal.

Piano lessons are already priced out of the range of a huge percentage of people. I'm looking at $240/month (plus $50/month transportation fees) for lessons if I pursue the teacher I'm currently most interested in. And yes, I do realize full well that he's still not making a king's ransom at that rate.

The important point to remember here is that nobody ever put a gun to anybody's head and forced them to become a teacher. And most teachers for some reason don't seem particularly eager to hang up the Alfred's All In One books to get a regular job like the rest of us schlubs. It's almost as if they'd rather teach music than push paper and climb the corporate rat ladder. Shocking.

Let's take teachers down from the cross now please.

Where do you live Horace? $240 a month? so that means$60 per lesson for one hour? Transportation fee is not teacher's fault by the way. That seems to be reasonable rate if you live in cities, or there is a shortage of private teachers.

and how do you know that the pirce is out of the range of a huge percentage of people? based on what?

because we love music, and love to teach music, doesn't mean that we have to function like charity workers, you pay us to give you knowledge, and that is not measures by time, or any sort of free lessons.

and don't think a lot of teachers are begging people to come and take lessons, if music is not their priority, then be it, no teachers want to take on a student who is not interested in music anyhow, it will be a pain for both of us.

you message seems to be saying that if we want to make a living, then we just have to take on whatever people feels like giving to us, otherwise change our career?

hell, no...I am sure there are teachers are be abused like that out there, and I feel very sorry for them if that true.

What? You mean market forces can be expected to play a role in pricing? Well then. I guess teachers who give free introductory lessons might be acting out of self-interest after all, and in so doing make more money in the long run and find more good students and enjoy their careers more.

Your diatribe about charity cases and people heartlessly taking advantage of teachers who happen to give free intro lessons as a matter of policy, is insulting to both the teachers and the students.

This is kind of an interesting discussion. I think that Horace makes a good point--offering an introductory, trial, free lesson *can* be a good business decision. It's not charity. It's a way to attract potential students. My guess, and I could be totally wrong, is that a lot of potential students don't put a whole lot of time into choosing a teacher. You see who's local, who fits your schedule, who has a reasonable price, and you sign up. If there are five teachers who fit this description, and you don't want to try out all five or conduct lengthy interviews, you'll try the free one and maybe one or two others.

In a single half hour session, or even an hour, it's unlikely that a student who doesn't return got a great deal of knowledge, which is what teacher's are selling. You talk for a while, assess background, skills and goals, and the time is up. It's not the same thing as going to a doctor or dentist, where there are likely going to be other costs such as lab work and x-rays. These cost a lot of money, and no one should expect these to be free. However, when we were looking for pediatricians for our kids, meeting and interviewing doctors *was* free.

And as for lawyers, many who do civil work do so on a contingency basis. They can work a whole lotta hours on a case, and if they lose, they get nothing.

So, I'm not saying that teachers are obligated to offer a single, free lesson, nor should they if they don't want to. However, since teachers are running a business, it just *might* be prudent to do so, particularly if the teacher is really trying to attract students.

look, free lesson doesn't lead to more money and more students, it happens but not 100%. For doing so, I think it puts the teacher in a bad position, it can be sening out a message like: hey try me out, it's not like buying a car, if you are a teacher, I think at least you would think yourself as a good one, good enough to get paid.

lesson price are entirely up to the teacher, but I do think it need to increase as our daily living cost goes up, also it can be based on your qualification, I would image if I am a DMA, or MM, I will have the right to charge people more.

For not giving a free lesson policy, is a protection to both side, it can protect teachers being taken advantage of, also protect students not being cheated, have you ever thought that a free lesson will include nothing valuable to the students? and just been used to attract people who are looking for something just 'free'?

Hi,
Before the mods yank this thread because it is getting ugly, remember that some valuable info has been shared on this thread and it deserves to be seen by the readers of the forums.

Both the princess and horace make valid points. A lot of variables go into teachers deciding their rates and students deciding what they can afford to pay for music lessons. I will respond to the comment of "free music lessons being offered out of self interest." I think that any teacher offering a free lesson promo is doing a community service. A teacher's time is their time, and most students don't realize the giant amount of administration associated with a teaching program but they will if they ever become teachers. A free lesson is a great way to attract clients in hopes of getting a regular client, but the point still remains that the lesson does get taught, expertise is tranferred from the teacher to the student and the student is the one who benefits most from the experience.

I doubt that my studio is completely representative of all teaching studios, but I run a tight ship simply because of the enormous number of experiences I have had as a teacher with students trying to get something for nothing-hence the strong policy agreement I referred to earlier. I think every teacher needs one to protect themselves, and I applaud any teacher who has the guts to stand up for themselves and be strong about what they do. Princess is right in saying that a lot of teachers are misunderstood, not just music teachers though. It is an across the board situation from public to private institutions to private teachers. I'm sure Horace can site examples of teachers who are coasting, lazy, or have other issues, and surely there are those types in the teaching business as there are in any business, but most teachers in all fields have a hard time, especially in the private sector.
My main point here is to hope that you both take a broad view and see that you are both right in some ways, and that deciding on a teacher is the topic of this thread. I hope that some light was shed on the topic by all posters.

Rob, Good post.
I do think more teachers should stand up for themselves, and get what they deserve, and I am very much one of those.

When I teach, I teach....I don't put a fancy cover, I know a lot of hard working private studio teachers who are doing the same, and we all deserve what we are working so hard for.

Getting back to the OP's question, this is from the Adult Beginner's forum. Maybe it'll give you some ideas.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/32/382.html

Then charge as much as you want. Where's the problem? As long as you're that much better than the next teacher who charges less, and I'm sure you are, you should be able to make exactly as much as you feel you're worth.

that's what I have been doing, I charge what I deserve, don't need to be reminded.

if a teacher feels that she/he should charge less becuase she/he isn't sure about themselves if they are good...then they are not qualified to teach at all, and shouldn't be charging people at all.

All the teachers I'm familiar with who do the free intro lesson have degrees in music performance or education. One is the chairman of the local music teachers association. They give the free lessons because they've decided that it's a good way to advertise, for want of a better word. It is not philanthropy nor a lack of self-confidence. It is common business sense, when operating under certain market forces, that apparently many teachers in this thread do not operate under.

that's good, that's how they do business, and I have my way of doing business which doesn't include free stuff.

This is the kind of stuff that the Piano Forum has problems with. So many people with emotional and financial biases about the subject matter, it is difficult to have reasonable discussions.

Anyway, I claim stupidity and ignorance. Even though I knew the forum was called "piano teachers" it never quite dawned on me that that's largely who I'd be talking to. I won't bother y'all again.

A suggestion for anybody who wants to discuss piano teachers from the student's perspective, do so on the Adult Beginner's forum.

Hello.
I am new at this forum, so I do not know how to use it well yet. I want to write a reply for Horace post. He wrote about theacher who do not like to teach adults:"This is generally because the teacher is less skilled as opposed to having some weird "predisposition" towards children. The ability to teach an intelligent, motivated, inquisitive adult is what separates the good teachers from the not-so-good ones." I am the one who do not like to teach adults, and not because I am not skilled enough! I can teach on any level including professional, but I prefer to teach chidren simly because they have a potentional future to be on professioan level! And I can lead them to that. Actually it is much more difficult and much more responsible to teach children, than adults. Unfortunally not too many piano teachers understand that or they just do not want to understand that.

My two cents, from the perspective of the father of a family of four, taking five lessons of various instruments:

I have never heard of a first time freebie. Nor would I expect the first lesson to be free. It's a service I expect to pay for, and if a teacher offered a free initial lesson I would wonder why they feel the need to give away a valuable service, unless they are young and just starting to built up a student base.

OK, I stop and think: Didn't my younger boy have a free initial lesson (or two) from his new cello teacher? (He plays piano too.) And hasn't she turned out to be a fantastic teacher?

Strike the above. Different strokes for different folks. Whatever works. Go with the flow.

I'm agnostic on this one.

I see... so if adults "missed the boat" as kids (like if they didn't have parents who pushed them to play piano by a certain age), then to heck with 'em! It's stupid, and a waste of time, for adults to study piano, and for teachers to spend their precious energy instructing them...

What a horrible attitude for an educator to have! Honestly...

~kat
proud adult beginner who's a pretty good pianist

P.S. My teacher gets great satisfaction out of providing adults with a connection to music, and he doesn't limit himself by concerns about whether they'll ever be able to go pro. He's also a phenomenal pianist, arranger, composer, and well-degreed educator (not to mention a really likeable guy).

Well, I wouldn't totally agree iwth Anna G. as if they didn't learn the piano, then they can never learn the piano, and since they never will be a concert pianist, so teachers shouldn't be teaching them since it will be a waste of time, however, in the past 4 years of teaching about 10 adults, most of them started with great motivation, then gradually it descents, the most commands I heard:

1. I am too busy (with whatever)to practice
2. I am too busy with kids so I don't have time to practice
3. I am too busy with work to practice
4. I have been travelling in the past 2 weeks, so I didn't practice
5. I know I haven't practiced, but can we move on to the next piece?
6. I will work on p. 32-40....3 weeks go by, I am still on p. 32
.....

I completely understand the real life, I also do admire their interests, and attempt to be devoted, but a lot of time, I just learned not to except anything, nor I feel very full filling with the outcome, I feel I can't really plan much for them, since all of their excuses are excusable, what can I do if they have to travel, have to be with kids, have to help out the family, and also what can I do when they come in totally unprepared? there is nothing for me to talk about as music, but rather, act like a note correction officer and describe how to play HT.

I don't like to arrange adults to have weekly lessons, I would like to see them bio-weekly, or for more advanced played, once a month, that way they can get better preapred, and I can really teach them something.

Great thought, if I am a parent, I would think the same, since I am a teacher, if I heard someone is giving free lessons out of their valuable time, I would question why, I don't even think young graduates that are starting their studio should give out free lessons, logically, young and new graduates is not necessaily equal to questionable, is it? in fact, most young graduates teach far better than old-fashioned teachers.

Clara, I can definitely appreciate the concerns you voice regarding the logistical difficulties in taking on adult students...

The two things that disturbed me about Anna's post were, first of all, the implication that people who start as adults cannot ever hope to become professional. I agree that the odds are against them, but I wouldn't say it was impossible. Second, and actually much more importantly, I think it's sad to write someone off as unworthy to instruct based solely on the perception that the only merit in studying/teaching piano is if it leads to a career as a professional pianist. Music is an artform that heals and breathes life into all who partake of it. We can't all be professional musicians (not even all of the millions of kids who study diligently will realize that privilege--it's too competitive a market), but does that mean there's no worth in availing it to all willing parties as a pursuit with the purpose of personal enrichment? I would hope not.

Piano makes me happier than just about anything else in world. I am grateful to my teacher for helping me realize my potential as a musician, even though I'm an adult. To me, that shows that he has a very sophisticated understanding of the power and importance of music as something that feeds the soul--not just as a money/reputation maker reserved only for the privileged few. He has given me more than he'll ever know.

Well, I am not saying that adults should not take piano lessons at all. It is just that I am not interested in teaching adults myself. I do not think this is horrible attitude. There is plenty of other teachers who are willing to teach adults, I am just not one of them. I have The Music School Of Anna Gentle - the professional children's music school. It uses my own program for several years of study with several subjects each week, that every student must attend, and I am pretty busy with it. I am teaching music theory/solfeggio and choir as well, and I am a director of this school, as you could understand.

A little information about me. I came to the USA from Russia, Moscow, 8 years ago. I have a teaching experience more than 17 years including university level. But my passion is teaching kids. My students were winners of several piano and choir competitions both in Russia and in the USA, and performed in National TV programs. So I will stick with it, ok? :-)

By the way I am expecting my 4th child. :-)