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Are you suggesting that piano teachers actively deceive the government and do so on a regular basis?

Them's fightin' words!

Edit: Agreed with Morodiene. Obama and politics have nothing to do with the topic at hand, and mentioning him just makes you sound like a frothing Republican.

Mildly sarcastic? Rod, I intended my post to be extremely sarcastic. Apparently I failed!

It is extremely difficult to teach what you yourself cannot do. Ray seems to feel that it is right and proper that he hang out a shingle to teach, because he can now belt out (poorly) a few tunes out of a primer level book. Caveat emptor.

I smell a troll.

Please don't feed the troll.

There's one exactly like that near where I live. Maybe we're talking about the same one! I used to get transfers from that place. Every student is stuck in "hand positions" and can't read notes if their lives depended on it.

I'm in California, but not LA. I guess my situation is not unique.

I say we all should just quit teaching and go on the road like Elton John and then we'll see who really knows how to play that piano!

If the bucks don't start rolling in, go back to teaching!

Must pick up on some of rodmichael's coments.

"So John, should I interpret from your mildly sarcastic note that you would prefer having piano teachers regulated by the government"

Definitely regulated in some way. Especially if they are working with children. School teachers have to be registered with the GTC (General Teaching Council) and are police checked.

"that all piano teachers should pass a board exam of some sort"

I think this would be a good idea. There should be testing of teaching ability in particular. Performing ability can be proven by diplomas and certificates etc.

"that all should have to pay for some kind of liability insurance in case a student gets some kind of tendinitis that's debilitating or to protect against some other piano "malpractice;" that there should be an annual $350 license fee to teach piano; that there should be periodic re-qualification boards for piano teachers; and on and on...."

I have liability insurance through the ISM (Incorporated Society of Musicians). The annual fee is £120.

I used to teach people to drive. I was required to complete a check test every couple of years to ensure my skills were up to standard. Music teachers should undergo the same testing IMO.

"Then we could all pay for piano lessons that would cost about $350/hr and then piano teachers really would have to declare their income (all of it) and pay quarterly FICA and all the rest."

I run a business as a piano teacher. It is how I make my living. All my income from teaching is declared and I pay my taxes. Despite this I don't feel the need to charge the kind of fee you suggest.

"Of course they would have to sertify that their pianos are always in tune. Wouldn't it be wonderful for piano teachers to be regulated."

My pianos are tuned 2 or 3 times a year. Since I have more than one piano it is not cheap but it would not be professional to teach on an out of tune piano.

Yes it would be wonderful for piano teachers to be regulated.

It's not only my personal connection with her. She really is good at what she does, always totally on top of things. We used to have a selection that pulled in people from many places who could not find so much to look at, but some priorities were changed due to reorganizing the store, leaving less room not only to display things but also to store them, and the economy has also made the store more conservative about keeping anything that does not sell quickly.
Exactly. I've carefully examined so many methods over the years that I almost instantly recognize anything that is in more than one book. I looked at a method yesterday. Almost immediately I saw that it used the same tune called "Moravian Waltz", from one of the Diller-Quaile books. However, a very nice arrangement was dumbed down until there was nothing left. The melody was left unchanged, but the LH was simplified until it removed what was essential. My point remains that there are probably a thousand tunes that could have been used there, instead, and by introducing the same tune in a later book, simplification would have been unnecessary.

I still think that a huge part of teaching is simply know when to teach something, and that is another thing that takes years of experience to get really good at. In fact, I hope to see more discussions in the future about more unusual books or sheet music that we all teach, to swap ideas about adding things.
Our store will stock anything that any teacher uses regularly.
We will never know for sure, but if she was just helping a friend, in which I really would not criticize her even though she may do a lot of harm, many others come into the store, claiming to be teachers. They are more than a handful of students.

There are also a few knowledgeable, dedicated teachers who come to the store, and I'm sure there are others whom I've never met!

Not every piano teacher who piano is a second instrument is a bad teacher. To me a bad teacher is a bad teacher, no matter what they teach. I find that I'm teaching the same principles and concepts between my clarinet and piano students. Think of some of the great school music teachers, some who may not have majored on the instrument most students are learning, but the teacher produces truly fine results with knowing how to teawch concepts such as rhythm, sight-reading, and ear training--in fact only one of my school music teachers was a clarinetist, (my major instrument). Even some of the physical principles of playing are similar between instruments--a few years ago my piano teacher (a professional pianist himself with a Masters in Piano and an ARCT in Piano--he also has Grade 10 Trombone) pointed out that I was lifting my shoulders while playing, and the fact that he discovered that also made playing clarinet easier.

And most of my students achieve marks in at least the 80s (they don't if they don't practice or don't care), some have even achieved 90s. So I think I know what I'm doing, even though piano is not my main instrument--though I put in a good amount of practice on it most days, I actually practice piano a lot more than clarinet, since I learn the clarinet stuff really quickly!

Meri

I'm not a member of MTNA or any other professional music organization.

My high school teacher was not only a member of the dominant organization here but also had a lot of power in that organization.

I would respectfully point out that although being connected to groups and systems may be an equalizer, filtering out people who are incompetent, it does not necessarily mean that someone who does not take part in them is not an effective teacher!
I think the store itself is "driven" by the teachers who use the stores. If many innovative buy their music in a store, the quality of the music offered there will improve. And if it doesn't, they will move their business elsewhere.

Because of my situation, I get to see anything that comes in. Much of it might not be kept (not my decision), but I will immediately examine anything new and buy it for myself if I like what I see.

The important thing, whether you are a member of an organization or not, is to stay open, never stop investigating, and be ready to change things at any moment if you see a better solution!

I also teach voice, but I can never tell which instrument is my "main" one...I love them both equally! But I agree, just because one can play an instrument well does not qualify them as a good teacher, but it sure helps.

Can't exactly agree with you here. Most music stores that I support have my name on their list so when there is a seminar or workshop, they contact me by email or letter. So I have been exposed to all the new music that comes out.

And I did belong to piano teacher organizations and soon discovered that some of them have razor sharp teeth! All they did was complain about all the teacher who didn't belong to their organization/groups. At the same time talking down about each other that did belong to the group. So I left out the back door never to return. The competition between these teachers could be cut with a knife.

So I have piano teachers who I respect (some registered and some not, but who I can call upon at a moments notice, so I have all the support I need. And enough workshops and seminars to keep me out of trouble.

Pick your friends carefully. Just because they belong to an organization, doesn't always mean they want to support you!

I don't think we should make automatic assumption about the teaching ability of people who are either in organizations or not organizations. I think such generalizations are unfair and even dangerous.

Quote: "I would respectfully point out that although being connected to groups and systems may be an equalizer, filtering out people who are incompetent, it does not necessarily mean that someone who does not take part in them is not an effective teacher!"


I wasn't saying that only quality teachers are members of professional organizations and those who are not are not competent. What I was saying was that teachers who are members tend to have more opportunities to be introduced to new materials, new methods, etc.... because of the activities their branch will offer.

There are over 130 piano teachers in my town. 25 are members of MTNA/MTAC. One music store recently sponsored a workshop with a well-known clinician, promoting it to all piano teachers. 15 teachers were in attendance, 2/3 of them MTNA members.

There certainly are great teachers out there who are continually educating themselves on new methods, new music, innovative new ways of teaching. Likewise, there are teachers who hold membership in various organizations yet are still stuck teaching the same music the SAME way as they did 30 years ago.

In Canada, becoming a registered music teacher requires a University degree or Conservatory Diploma.

I make an automatic assumption that a registered music teacher has relevant education.

I agree with you Gary that education does not make one a good teacher automatically, but it does help to weed out those who should not be teaching due to imcompetence. For many, this weeding out process is an important step in choosing a teacher. Others don't care at all.

There are some good accountants that do not belong to professional organizations. Myself being a non-informed purchaser of accounting services would always choose one who is a member because the organization's reputation demands that they adhere to standards. It is the first filter that I use to weed out the bottom feeders.

Is is dangerous to assume that a Chartered Accountant is better than someone who has not bothered to jump through their hoops? I may be missing out on a great non member, but I don't feel that danger.

Of course, there are many different music teachers organizations, and some may experience a higher level of community respect than others, and hence provide more of an incentive to teachers.

I'm not sure I would qualify though, for registration. Yes, I have a degree, but it is a performance degree. I have no formal background in teaching. On paper, I don't know how to teach.

Having said that, I'm sure at least some people on this forum will now decide that I'm not a good teacher and may not take anything I say seriously in the future, because I don't have "credentials".

I hope this doesn't happen here, but I fear it.

Yes I think because you have a performance degree, that qualifies you.

But being a registered music teacher (Canada anyways) doesn't make you well rounded in all teaching styles of piano playing.

Okay, I'm just going to vent if you don't mind.

I went to a registered music teacher to take jazz, and she couldn't teach it because she had not been taught jazz chord voicings. She was trying, but she had no knowlege of this.

So I compare registered music teachers to ballet teachers. Do I have to become a registered ballet instructor before I can dance the tango, salsa, cha cha, jive, etc. Let's hope not!

The piano is so multifaceted, that to lump all of us piano teachers into one mold seems outrageous! And the thought of monitoring teachers is just ridiculous.

That said, Ray Charles should not have played the piano then! Shame on his teacher for teaching him! Because his teacher probably wasn't a registered music teacher!

Not me. I think you are good teacher because in my opinion, you know what you are talking about.

I agree and share the same experience. I also happen to be the jazz teacher in town, so I know that being a classically trained RMT does not prelcude me from teaching other styles as well.

I specialize, as do most of the other members in my organization.

All I said before is that I assume that an RMT has relevant education.

Did we come up with a number of how many piano teachers know anything.

Is this like guess how many M&M's are in the glass jar?

What's the prize for knowing the number?

Actually, I find the title of this topic a little insulting and antagonistic.

Are we being judged by our least common denominators?