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#943453 - 11/12/08 04:28 PM What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4801
Loc: South Florida
I wonder what the purpose of the teacher's forum is, or what it might be.

Of course it might be many things to many people, but lately something has disturbed me so much that I have seriously considered leaving. Not leaving as in doing anything official, just leaving because of lack of interest.

So much time is spent debating how to teach certain concepts that to me are basic and rather self-explanatory that it seems as though we rarely have any creative, thoughtful discussions about how to use these concepts.

Over the last week or so the whole subject of "tetrachords" has been rather hotly debated, yet it seems to me that any attempt to talk about how to use this concept creatively has been ignored, while fights have nearly broken out over whether or not to use an asterisk before the first "W".

I mentioned to one person in PW that "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" (Micky and the brooms) ends with the C# D# E# F# tetrachord. To my young students, I have mentioned that "The Adam's Family Theme" gives you two of them, for instance:

C D E F click click
D E F# G click click
D E F# G , D E F# G
C D E F click click

And showed them that using F and G as starting points works equally, so they get four of the 12 instantly.

Now, if all of you are already teaching these exact same ideas, or if such ideas are useless to anyone else but me, then the silence is understandable and explains to me why when I attempted to start a discussion about actually associating tetrachords with what we know, intuitively, I did not even get one response. Or perhaps someone though I was trying to start a fight, which was absolutely not my intention.

It just seems to me that teachers want to hammer away at what we should teach but welcome little or no feedback about how individual teachers use these concepts. With the debates about "appliances vs real pianos" and "asterisks or not asterisks" before letters mapping out tetrachords, almost everything that is important to me as a teacher trying to pick the brains of other fine teachers has gone out the window.

(returning to fix typos…)
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#943454 - 11/12/08 04:35 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
You really think so Gary?

Are you saying you are finding no fine teachers with brains for you to pick here?

I might intrepret that to mean your peer group is not here, is that what you mean?

I'm sorry the asterisks bothered you so much, I wondered why something so legitimate was so grossly unobserved by other teachers. It made me wonder if most of us do not understand our subject material.

So, I'm having the same dilemma, I must admit.

Criticism is one thing, constructive criticism is another, insults are still another thing - all within the content of communication or lack of it.

Who's next?

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#943455 - 11/12/08 05:10 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4801
Loc: South Florida
 Quote:

You really think so Gary?

Are you saying you are finding no fine teachers with brains for you to pick here?
No. I'm saying that we are not communciating well. In my opinion.
 Quote:

I might intrepret that to mean your peer group is not here, is that what you mean?
No.
 Quote:

I'm sorry the asterisks bothered you so much, I wondered why something so legitimate was so grossly unobserved by other teachers. It made me wonder if most of us do not understand our subject material.
Betty, you are misinterpreting everything I tried to say. You are missing the point.

The point is that the whole tetrachord idea is so simple, so elegant, so useful in a thousand ways that it is all but destroyed by over-analysis. To assume that any of us don't understand tetrachords or don't know how to teach them is, to me, ridiculous. And this is not the only subject that seems to be debated as if there is only one way to teach it, or one way to use it.

I am incapable of reading any discussion on *anything* without paying attention to new ideas, and I try to use *anything* new, if it might work.

Now, for the record, I don't teach what you teach. It's too blasted complicated for my little kids. I teach them to count keys, one for each note. C-2-2-1. Start with a note, move 2 to the right, 2 more to the right, 1 more. That's it. I can teach this to a five year-old, no problem. I MAY replace the "C" with an asterisk, or with an "X marks the spot X":

X-2-2-1

Very little kids will not worry about what the first symbol is. Older kids might prefer one symbol or the other, but honestly, they all DO it long before we worry about HOW. And I believe that is lost in these discussions. Do you understand?

We begin to worry more about the *method* than if the *method* WORKS.

The same thing happens in discussions about scales. People start arguing about what is the right way to teach them, when to me the only important thing is they become absorbed, used and understood.

I was also totally ignored when I mentioned that scales, to me, are in 7 notes sets, with repeated patterns of 3 and 4. Again, it is as if by simply mentioning that my mind processes this information a bit differently than what is most often presented in books, my ideas are inherently flawed or evey useless, even if they work *for at least* a minority of people.
 Quote:


So, I'm having the same dilemma, I must admit.

Criticism is one thing, constructive criticism is another, insults are still another thing - all within the content of communication or lack of it.

Who's next?
I'm not interpreting ideas that conflict with mine as insults. I disagree strongly with some of your conclusions (lately) about how things *must* be taught. That does not mean that I am insulting you, Betty.

I do shake my head at times when I write something that I think might be interesting, and I get no response, but if I interpreting every idea that strongly contadicts mine as an insult, let me tell you, I would fell highly insulted all the time. \:\)
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#943456 - 11/12/08 05:22 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7366
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Gary, I suspect this forum is different things to different people.

I discovered the forum 2 1/2 years ago, and thought that perhaps it would be a great way to help younger, less experienced teachers especially with the mechanics of teaching. Many teachers don't live in an environment like Betty and I are fortunate to live in, where we have literally hundreds of peers to meet with and discuss issues.

I would love to discuss students, but as this is a public forum, it could prove disastrous. We discussed the "teacher's lounge" concept some time back, and a number of us long for such a capability.

In these two and a half years I've been here, we've discussed almost every conceivable topic, sometimes more than once. I'm open to revisiting them, because we change and/or we may have had new ideas on the subject.

I find the announcements useful for myself, which is why I post them from time to time. I hope it helps other teachers.

My pet peeve, however, is students coming here for advice. It seems to me that the proper place for that is either on the Adult Beginner forum or the general piano forum. I understand why they often do come here, however, as when I first started, I offered advice there, and found that totally inexperienced pianists would contradict you in a heartbeat. I'm not a charity, and as my going rate is $45/hr, I don't need to be insulted on top of providing a free service.

As for the concept of tetrachords, I kind of smiled when you brought it up. I used to teach it, but for the past six years or so, I've been introducing students to one octave scales almost immediately and by the end of their first year, they can play all the white key major and minor scales. I still do cover the basic concept, but just as flavoring as I teach the students the scales.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#943457 - 11/12/08 05:32 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Highlander One Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 111
Loc: Texas
Gary....the reason I didn't respond to your tetrachord/adams family theme, is that I agree with you, and when I talk about tetrachords, I use the adams family theme to demonstrate.

One thing for sure is that every student is different, and it might take different ways of presenting the material to get the student to understand.

H1
_________________________
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Piano study since 1969
Piano teacher since 1992
Touring musician since 1985
Studio musician since 1996
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#943458 - 11/12/08 06:01 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4801
Loc: South Florida
 Quote:

Gary, I suspect this forum is different things to different people.
Of course!
 Quote:

I discovered the forum 2 1/2 years ago, and thought that perhaps it would be a great way to help younger, less experienced teachers especially with the mechanics of teaching. Many teachers don't live in an environment like Betty and I are fortunate to live in, where we have literally hundreds of peers to meet with and discuss issues.
Well, I have been other forums for two or more years, and there is a tendency for the same old "pearls" to come up again and again.
 Quote:

I would love to discuss students, but as this is a public forum, it could prove disastrous. We discussed the "teacher's lounge" concept some time back, and a number of us long for such a capability.
I am aware of that danger, which is why I only talk about students very generally, and even so I may say too much. On the other hand, the parents of students who have treated me very unfairly are rather unlikely to be reading this forum, and if they did, frankly I would not care!
 Quote:

In these two and a half years I've been here, we've discussed almost every conceivable topic, sometimes more than once. I'm open to revisiting them, because we change and/or we may have had new ideas on the subject.
I'm sure I would abstain if the same topic came up again and I had nothing to add and felt that simply referring to an older topic would get the job done.

I think that what interests me the most is how other teachers are evolving. I keep redefining what I do. One of my former students, a teacher, told me that I keep challenging myself more than any other teacher she has met, and this is because I *will* try something that I'm not sure will work, just to be sure that it is a dead-end. In addition, because most of my students are very young and because I lose so many due to people moving again (thereby losing some of my best students every year), I have been *forced* to explore ways to accelerate the learning of new music for people who have not played long. For me this has been a matter of financial survival, but the efforts to survive have vastly improved what I do. Because I am a maverick, using my own materials, doing a lot of research and investigation into everything, it was my hope that I could share some of the things that may not be standard but that work for me.
 Quote:

My pet peeve, however, is students coming here for advice. It seems to me that the proper place for that is either on the Adult Beginner forum or the general piano forum. I understand why they often do come here, however, as when I first started, I offered advice there, and found that totally inexperienced pianists would contradict you in a heartbeat. I'm not a charity, and as my going rate is $45/hr, I don't need to be insulted on top of providing a free service.
Your view is understandable. The flip side is that anyone who comes here thinking that a forum will replace a good teacher is, in my opinion, in for a great disappointment.
 Quote:

As for the concept of tetrachords, I kind of smiled when you brought it up. I used to teach it, but for the past six years or so, I've been introducing students to one octave scales almost immediately and by the end of their first year, they can play all the white key major and minor scales. I still do cover the basic concept, but just as flavoring as I teach the students the scales.
This is exactly what I do. \:\)
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#943459 - 11/12/08 06:38 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Betty, you are misinterpreting everything I tried to say. You are missing the point. (Gary D)

Gee, Gary, I am not doing that intentionally.

I've become very aware of us not being on the same page, and just how irritated you seem to be with me over several things. I am not trying to misunderstand you, in fact, what I write back to you is what I am understanding you to say, and I ask those questions of you so you can help me understand if I'm missing something.

It wasn't necessary for you to go into the tetrachord dilemma again....we've really beaten that to death. I wasn't trying to annoy people, I was trying to complete a thought so that I could be understood in why I thought it was so important to also see it in a different way. So, I've found out that many teachers don't care about tetrachords....I understand that....as once upon a time I thought they were a detail that didn't have much importance in the scheme of things. But then you find the complete linkage and it really does make a difference.

If I have a serious student quick on the uptake, I am going to make sure this part is understood. Some don't make a point of tetrachords, I do. That is the difference between us. Choice.

I agree with John that I would like for teachers to have some privacy in posting to other teachers for the very reasons he mentions. And, those people who feel so welcome and post so often in the piano teachers forum about their findings and needs and insights, have their own private tutoring services going with us as the tutors. Just chatting away compulsively about whatever is of interest to them at the moment. Exchanges are better in my mind than are dissertations, we have a lot of that too.

Are we as piano teachers to be available 24/7 for this service that is being demanded of us? Lately we are being trolled and we don't recognize it.

People do not become piano teachers just by parroting the pages of a book back - and there is a lot of that going on.

I think piano teachers are at a disadvantage not being able to link with other experienced teachers whom we have many things in common with. That's who I'm looking for when I post on the Piano Teacher's Forum.

Does any of this relate to you as a teacher, Gary? What about other teachers, would some kind of a dividing line for serious teacher only conversations be desirable?

Where do you go to find it?

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#943460 - 11/12/08 07:13 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5478
Loc: Orange County, CA
Gary:

I stayed away from the tetrachord thread because I don't teach it. I go from five-finger positions (all the major and minor keys) directly to C Major scale.

I think there's a fair amount of ideas being exchanged on this forum. There are probably more visitors lurking around than you realize. Our ideas are being shared around the world. Isn't that great?? \:\)
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#943461 - 11/12/08 07:15 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5929
Loc: Down Under
 Quote:
Originally posted by Betty Patnude:
I agree with John that I would like for teachers to have some privacy in posting to other teachers for the very reasons he mentions. [/b]
I know some teachers do want this - but this is a public forum. Even if you were to make a rule that no-one who wasn't a teacher could post (and I don't know how you'd enforce that), you couldn't stop anyone, anywhere in the world, reading it. So you would only have an illusion of privacy. Maybe what you really want is some sort of email newsgroup setup - I don't know how they work exactly, but it may be more what you are looking for.
You and John both use your real names, which means you can't be too specific about your students. I have a forum name, but even though I couldn't be easily identified, I'm still careful when posting about students. I would be mortified if one of them read something on a public forum where I'd been talking about them, as they could very easily do.

Betty also said: And, those people who feel so welcome and post so often in the piano teachers forum about their findings and needs and insights, have their own private tutoring services going with us as the tutors...Are we as piano teachers to be available 24/7 for this service that is being demanded of us? [/b]

Of course not. Just don't respond. I don't know about you, but there are far more posts on PW than I have time to read, let alone respond to. So I'm selective. It's only a demand if you let it be.

We had this discussion some months back, and my view hasn't changed. I welcome the perspective of students here, as long as when relevant they make it clear they are not teachers. Our regular student posters do this. I don't in any way feel obliged to be their private tutors! I have however certainly learnt things from students, both in my teaching and in forums like this one.

Gary, you've probably noticed that some of us come and go. We might be very active for a few days, then vanish for another few. I know I do. It's just because of the way my work goes. So if you don't get responses to a post, it may just be that we're all busy, or even that your post was so good that we felt it warranted a lot of thought, which we didn't have at that time. That's what it usually is in my case, anyway \:\) .
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#943462 - 11/12/08 07:21 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5478
Loc: Orange County, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Betty Patnude:
I think piano teachers are at a disadvantage not being able to link with other experienced teachers whom we have many things in common with. [/b]
Betty:

That's true in many of the chapters/branches of professional organizations. Speaking for my own branch of MTAC, our meetings are always poorly attended. It is embarrassing to put on a concert or workshop and have 9 people show up. That happens every year.

What's worse, some of the more "respected" and "experienced" teachers in my branch are actually the most aloof and impersonal when it comes to professional development activities. Most of the time, they don't even bother to show up. They think they got it all right and thus have nothing else to learn. Plus, if they share with us their "trade secrets," then they'll probably end up losing students to joe schmoes like us.

Yeah, really sad if you ask me... \:\(
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Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#943463 - 11/12/08 07:39 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11674
Loc: Canada
.

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#943464 - 11/12/08 07:47 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Piano World Offline



Registered: 05/24/01
Posts: 5585
Loc: Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
I could easily create a "teachers only" forum, which would require proving you are a teacher (of course, that would quickly become a slippery slope).

And, as a "private" forum, only approved members would be able to access or post there.

But...
First I question just how much it would be used, second I question why.

The reason I chose to leave the Teacher Forum public (as I did with the piano tuner-technicians) is BECAUSE I knew the general public would want to peek, and possibly participate.

And while they are at it, they just might learn something that will make them appreciate their teachers (and tuners) a little more.

And, their teachers might learn some things about how their students viewed their teaching, or what they might want, or what concerns them.

Sure, you have to put up with those annoying amateur questions occassionally, but guess what, they are your customers, and they want to learn too.

Now if enough of you really would like a private forum, let me know. But please keep in mind that the "public" sections of our forums are not just for the participants, but also for the "public" to learn.

With well over 1 million posts, we now come up in any number of searches on the major search engines. This means more people are finding us, and in turn, finding you.

And I hope, those who choose to stick around a while enjoy themselves, are inspired to own and learn to play piano, and have some fun!
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#943465 - 11/12/08 08:06 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
William A.P.M. Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 554
Loc: Ecuador
Gary D, my friend, your point I believe and hold to be loud and clear if not directly aimed at the avid readers of the forums.

What I feel bothers you, as much as it bothers me, is that many times I will come across a topic where scales and all this beginner stuff is being discussed in such a way as if we were discussing the structure of a whole symphony! I was most curious when the whole discussion of tetrachords showed up in that thread, but never commented because these things are supposed to be known by teachers. Yet we find that these discussions as in the 'whole tone' thread are being over-analyzed in my opinion where, honestly speaking, and in agreement with what you said, there are many ways to view scales and all this whole tone stuff, but much of this information actually is useless because many are already figuring these things out by themselves. However, we are not in these forums to actually teach, or at least I thought it was to share our teaching experiences or discoveries. Not to be bombarded with questions of supreme boredom in many cases.
As mentioned about the METHOD, it may not always work. If teachers all around are teaching just one thing in relation to let's say 'tetrachords' then there is a great possibility that many students will not understand. It's like giving every student the same fingering for a certain piece disregarding each of their particular likings to the fingering or hand span. There's always more than 1 way!

We really should be focusing on IF THE METHOD WORKS OR NOT. My most beloved students, in this case the male student became obssessed with playing octaves faster and faster without tension. I tried teaching him right from Hanon first, then Ganz' ideas on symmetrical inversions but really nothing seemed to work for him. I had to look around my books until Cesi's studies for piano proved much better. My female student learned to relax her wrists with Hanon and that worked. So here, I was more concerned with what actually worked, proving to be of great benefit for my 2 pupils.
However, what I just mentioned is something that could be shared in a "PIANO TEACHER'S FORUM" in order to learn from one another and teach all our students with fresh new ideas. We cannot disregard what we all share, because many other things we know actually work for us and could work for all of you. Books are not the definitive source in teaching anything, passion and practice will prove more successful.

I do hope however that people are coming to this forum to ask us everything because as was mentinoed, a huge disappointment lies ahead. A formal instructor will always be better. These forums can help with certain things, but I do in fact find it ridiculous when someone asks, let's say fingering for the C major scale. Am I really going on a forum to answer that question? I always come here in hopes of finding people at least knowledgeable of the fundamentals of music or music playing. I do like what I read from other teachers even if I disagree, but I would like that to be exclusive to teachers only , this way we are not interrupted in lively discussions by questions we really should'nt be answering.

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#943466 - 11/12/08 08:06 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5929
Loc: Down Under
Frank,
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Du holde Kunst...

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#943467 - 11/12/08 08:13 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5929
Loc: Down Under
 Quote:
Originally posted by William Penafiel:
... I would like that to be exclusive to teachers only , this way we are not interrupted in lively discussions by questions we really should'nt be answering. [/b]
As I said to Betty, there is no obligation on you to answer anything. If you feel you "shouldn't" be answering the questions, then don't.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#943468 - 11/12/08 08:59 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4801
Loc: South Florida
I want to make my own position clear. I wrote:

 Quote:

It just seems to me that teachers want to hammer away at what we should teach but welcome little or no feedback about how individual teachers use these concepts.
This was aimed at teachers, not at students. My point was and remains that it is easy to fall into the trap of believing in systems or theories because they are supported, over and over again, as if they were the Holy Grail.

I picked the subject of tetrachords only as an example.

I am not a bit in favor of censoring anyone. I was making an appeal for more open-mindedness, viewing other views with more tolerance.

For the record, I have one little course on my official transcript, from about 40 years ago, that says I know something about teaching. In an official site for piano teachers only, who is to say that *I* would not be admitted? I might not qualify for the "club".

There is no clear line between students and teachers. All teachers should still be students, at least in the larger sense, ready to learn new things, and many students are indeed teaching, on some level.

I joined this forum to share what I know, and if students are afraid to state their views about whether or not the things I say or recommend are valid, in my opinion I have not accomplished anything except to bully them, at least on some level. I can only relate what works for me, as a musician, and what I believe has worked for my students, but just because something has worked does not mean that I can't find something even better.

Bottom line: I'm totally AGAINST a forum that excludes people. I think it's a bad idea.
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#943469 - 11/12/08 09:08 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5929
Loc: Down Under
I'm glad you clarified all that, Gary. I couldn't agree more.
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Du holde Kunst...

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#943470 - 11/12/08 09:22 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4801
Loc: South Florida
Betty,
 Quote:

It wasn't necessary for you to go into the tetrachord dilemma again....we've really beaten that to death.
That is the problem for me. I don't think we have even *begun* to explore this whole area. I don't teach the whole tetrachord "thing" the same way you do. We have not even started to understand our differences in thinking. Are you interested in what works for me and my students? Or have you already made up your mind?
 Quote:

I wasn't trying to annoy people, I was trying to complete a thought so that I could be understood in why I thought it was so important to also see it in a different way. So, I've found out that many teachers don't care about tetrachords....I understand that....as once upon a time I thought they were a detail that didn't have much importance in the scheme of things. But then you find the complete linkage and it really does make a difference.
But what *is* "the complete linkage"? If I, as a musician, don't use them, what am I missing?
 Quote:

I agree with John that I would like for teachers to have some privacy in posting to other teachers for the very reasons he mentions. And, those people who feel so welcome and post so often in the piano teachers forum about their findings and needs and insights, have their own private tutoring services going with us as the tutors.
Who are "those people"? *I* am *interested* in the needs and insights of people who are learning. If their ideas are not useful to me, I don't have to do more than skim. The only person who bothers me is Gyro, but not because his opinions are not mine, but because he copies and pastes the same views, over and over. To me this is more misleading than any contribution by any other member, because new members are often confused by his posts.
 Quote:

Just chatting away compulsively about whatever is of interest to them at the moment. Exchanges are better in my mind than are dissertations, we have a lot of that too.
That's rather nasty, isn't it? What is to keep you from labeling my posts as disseratations? Or anyone else you disagree with? Is it OK for me to "post long" because I'm a teacher? What if tomorrow you decide that I don't know enough to make that claim, of being a teacher?

What if someone tomorrow decides *your* posts are dissertations? Or that you don't really know enough to give advice? Where does it end?
 Quote:

Are we as piano teachers to be available 24/7 for this service that is being demanded of us? Lately we are being trolled and we don't recognize it.
*Who* is demanding *anything* from us? Did someone make you join this forum? Did someone make me join it? I am under zero obligation to answer anyone, either in public or in private. If we are being trolled, then who are the trolls? It's cowardly and mean to make vieled accusations in this manner.
 Quote:

People do not become piano teachers just by parroting the pages of a book back - and there is a lot of that going on.
Who has done that? Name one person. I have seen people share what they have learned, and how they have learned it. While I may not find what I read of use for teaching, it gives me valuable insight as to how we, as teachers, are perceived, and it shows me the thought-process going on while people are absorbing new skills.
 Quote:

I think piano teachers are at a disadvantage not being able to link with other experienced teachers whom we have many things in common with. That's who I'm looking for when I post on the Piano Teacher's Forum.
I'm looking for that too, but not *only* that. The moment a worthwhile connect is made, PMs and emails give us all the opportunities we need to communicate, in private. A forum is by definition not a private place, at least one such as this.

I personally welcome questions or challenges from anyone, students also. If I feel, for any reason, that I am being asked for help with no appreciation for the time I give, I have the option of no longer replying.
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#943471 - 11/12/08 10:17 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Piano*Dad Offline
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Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10362
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
 Quote:
I would like that to be exclusive to teachers only , this way we are not interrupted in lively discussions by questions we really should'nt be answering.
Nor would you be 'interrupted' by anyone else, like parents or annoying pianists who might offer insights that disturb the holy temple of teaching.
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#943472 - 11/12/08 10:28 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17777
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gary D.:
I am not a bit in favor of censoring anyone. I was making an appeal for more open-mindedness, viewing other views with more tolerance....

There is no clear line between students and teachers. All teachers should still be students, at least in the larger sense, ready to learn new things, and many students are indeed teaching, on some level.

I joined this forum to share what I know, and if students are afraid to state their views about whether or not the things I say or recommend are valid, in my opinion I have not accomplished anything except to bully them, at least on some level. I can only relate what works for me, as a musician, and what I believe has worked for my students, but just because something has worked does not mean that I can't find something even better.

Bottom line: I'm totally AGAINST a forum that excludes people. I think it's a bad idea. [/b]
Beautifully stated, and I agree completely, Gary.

The idea of kicking non-teachers off the teacher's forum was dealt with rather exhaustively not long ago, and if memory serves me correctly, I think pretty much everybody except Betty felt that excluding nonteachers was not a good idea in general (though there was sentiment expressed that a thread that was entitled or explicitly directed toward "teachers only" should be respected as such). I personally think making the entire forum for teachers only is a lousy idea and impractical to enforce, for all the reasons articulated here and in the earlier thread.

To the extent that nonteachers' opinions matter on this, I personally would also be opposed to Frank starting up a private forum for teachers only. As far as I know, there are no other such "private" forums here (other than one for moderators only, for the purpose of discussing pain in the butt posters ;\) ). I am troubled by the philosophical implications of a "private" sub-forum on an internet forum, as it seems antithetical to the entire notion of openness and transparency that is the hallmark of the internet.

Betty, you've been pretty vocal about your dissatisfactions with this forum. Perhaps you would like to set up a teachers-only forum of your own, or an email listserv? Then you would be able to run it exactly as you think it ought to be run.
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#943473 - 11/12/08 10:54 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Betty Patnude Offline
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Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
I think I'm being said to, "Here's your hat, what's your hurry."

I am somehow totally out of line because I think something that says "Piano Teachers Forum" might actually mean a forum for, now this is the difficult part, for piano teachers.

As far as running something exactly as I think it ought to be run, I have no desire to "run" anything other than my business which for 38 years has been my occupation - piano teaching.

What is antiethical to me is posting on a forum specified for piano teachers when that is not your work area or knowledge area. It is primarily for piano teacher use and interest is it not?

So what does being dissatisfied with something get me here? It feels like caveman tactics of being clobbered with a club because my view point is not popular with yours.

So much for openness and transparency.

Let me say that I appreciate Piano World Forum and Frank Baxter and having this vehicle to participate in. This is a creation for piano enthusiasts that we owe completely to Frank and his foresight and ambitions.

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#943474 - 11/12/08 11:38 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5929
Loc: Down Under
Originally posted by Betty Patnude:
I think I'm being said to, "Here's your hat, what's your hurry."[/b]
No, we're simply saying we don't agree with you.

I am somehow totally out of line because I think something that says "Piano Teachers Forum" might actually mean a forum for, now this is the difficult part, for piano teachers.[/b]
And some of us are saying that though it is primarily for piano teachers it is not exclusively so because, amongst other reasons, even piano teachers can learn something from those who aren't, and many of us actually welcome the input.

As far as running something exactly as I think it ought to be run, I have no desire to "run" anything other than my business which for 38 years has been my occupation - piano teaching.[/b]
If you have no desire to run a forum you'll probably have to defer to those who do run it.

What is antiethical to me is posting on a forum specified for piano teachers when that is not your work area or knowledge area. It is primarily for piano teacher use and interest is it not?[/b]
As you say, primarily. But in the previous discussion it was determined that no-one be excluded. I believe that's still the rule (actually, having read Frank's post, I'm sure it is).

It feels like caveman tactics of being clobbered with a club because my view point is not popular with yours.[/b]
I think we all should be tolerant and accepting of differing viewpoints, don't you?
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#943475 - 11/13/08 12:22 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4801
Loc: South Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by Betty Patnude:
I think I'm being said to, "Here's your hat, what's your hurry."
[/b]
No. But are you sure you are not saying that to someone *else*?

People have many reasons for being here. I come here to share my experiences. I get hungry for contact with other musicians, because even my most advanced students (at least at this time) are not able to follow all the thoughts that are going through my brain. If I lose the hunger to continue investigating, I will lose something terribly important when I teach.

Some of the students I have met here, in this particular forum, are hungry for music in a way my own students are not. It thrills me to see this kind of passion. It thrills me to see students also teaching others, because the fact is that there are many people around the world who, believe it or not, can afford to continue a monthly charge to remain connected and who have a computer, but who don't have the resources for piano lessons. I wish some of these people lived in this area and had money for lessons and came to *me*, but they are scattered around the world. For the record, I could not afford myself now. Ironic…

Sure, there would be advantages to talking only with other teachers, although I'll mention once again that I could not stop someone from locking me out. What if membership in some teachers' group was demanded? Who gets to make the decision about who is worthy, and who is not?

And what about the other side: don't you see how dangerous it is when teachers *only* communicate with each other? Don't you see how easy it is to assume that what we teach is the best way because we are all in the same "ghetto"?

Here I use "ghetto" figuratively, not as someplace that is poor, but someplace that is restricted and "poor" in the sense of no longer fertile, through the thoughts of "outsiders".

If anyone was pushing you to leave, I'd fight for your right to be here. I think others would too.
 Quote:

So what does being dissatisfied with something get me here? It feels like caveman tactics of being clobbered with a club because my view point is not popular with yours.
Again, isn't the person with the "club" the person who is trying to drive other people out? Or exclude them? Or belittle them, because they know less, and take more words to describe what they know?

No one is asking you to leave. But when you insist that you would prefer to have people excluded, you are asking them to leave.

Gary
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#943476 - 11/13/08 01:42 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keyboardklutz Offline
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I can't think of many (if any) student contributions I've valued here but there have been plenty from teachers. I'd rather an additional 'Teachers and Student' forum for the two parties to interact. Though we're all learners, we're not all at the same starting position. Still, I realize I can vote with my eyes.
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#943477 - 11/13/08 01:47 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
I think everyone is missing Gary point.
Gary is simply pointing out how useless is paralysis by analysis. People might get so stuck with the most irrelevant details or with the attempt to follow strict standards rather than finding their own way, that what is truly creative and thought-provoking gets ignored in favours of nit-picking over meaningless form.

Gary is not claiming that we should find new topic to discuss, or that we should non-spontaneously force certain discussions to happen. He is not lamenting the lack of original posts. What he is lamenting is how the freedom to discover infinite different perspectives over the same arguments, are curtailed by a chronic attempt to lead everything to the same "proper" trails.

We've been taught a path to follow in the wood in order to find the way to home. This doesn't mean we must militarily remind everyone to follow the same path and must be horrified by the idea of setting a foot outside of it. We know how to find the way, should we miss it. Now it's time to freely explore the whole thing, the most secret and dark places, to go uphill and not just stay in the flatland, to wet our feet in order to cross the stream, to scratch our skin in order to pass through the rocks. Gary frustration, I believe, is with seeing a straigh queue of little obedient scouts who keep following the only limited path they have been taught to walk, repressing their innate curiosity and risk-taking instinct; which are the only things that can provide innovative and creative ideas and discoveries.

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#943478 - 11/13/08 01:47 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Gary D. Offline
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Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4801
Loc: South Florida
Creating a new forum is not going to change anything other than to make mods more busy.
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#943479 - 11/13/08 01:51 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keystring Online   content
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11674
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
I can't think of many (if any) student contributions I've valued here but there have been plenty from teachers. I'd rather an additional 'Teachers and Student' forum for the two parties to interact. Though we're all learners, we're not all at the same starting position.
I suggested that this summer, and it was roundly rejected by all. Rather than teacher and student, it would have reflected a place of exchange of the three parties that can be interacting: teacher, student, parent, which could be between all three or any two of the three.

There are two kinds of questions that come into this forum: students asking advice from teachers; things involving the interaction among any of the above.

I am posting only because this is an idea that I had once put forward.

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#943480 - 11/13/08 01:53 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keyboardklutz Offline
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I doubt mods would be a problem. Hell, you could volunteer Gary.
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#943481 - 11/13/08 02:00 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5478
Loc: Orange County, CA
I actually welcome the perspectives of parents and students on this forum.

Of the few things I learned from my university's Department of Education, I learned that I should always hold up a mirror to my own teaching. When teachers reflect upon the effectiveness of their teaching, they teach better! This forum provides a great place to test teaching ideas and get feedback from parents, students, and other teachers.
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#943482 - 11/13/08 02:08 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4801
Loc: South Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
I doubt mods would be a problem. Hell, you could volunteer Gary. [/b]
I'd rather be crucified!

Being a mod is a HARD job… \:\)
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#943483 - 11/13/08 07:43 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Piano*Dad Offline
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Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10362
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
 Quote:
I'd rather an additional 'Teachers and Student' forum for the two parties to interact.
... and perhaps also a "Teacher and Parent" forum

... and a "Teacher and Pianist" forum

... and a "Teacher and Adult Student" forum

... and a "Conservatory Teacher" forum

... and a "Conservatory Teachers teach non-conservatory Teachers How to Teach" forum

.... \:D


Somehow, just a plain 'ol Teachers Forum seems to catch it all, and more. Much more. Cosmopolitanism seems more conducive to creativity than compartmentalization.
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#943484 - 11/13/08 07:52 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
 Quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
 Quote:
I'd rather an additional 'Teachers and Student' forum for the two parties to interact.
... and perhaps also a "Teacher and Parent" forum

... and a "Teacher and Pianist" forum

... and a "Teacher and Adult Student" forum

... and a "Conservatory Teacher" forum

... and a "Conservatory Teachers teach non-conservatory Teachers How to Teach" forum

.... \:D


Somehow, just a plain 'ol Teachers Forum seems to catch it all, and more. Much more. Cosmopolitanism seems more conducive to creativity than compartmentalization. [/b]
You hit the nail on the head.
How about a simple "Teaching Forum"[/b]?
After all even the description of the forum (discuss lesson plans, teaching techniques, etc), seems to suits a "Teachings Forum" more than a "Teachers Forum". It's about discussing teaching stuff not who teaches the teaching stuff.
As you point out the variations and shades could be infinite, "teaching" inglobes it all.

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#943485 - 11/13/08 08:00 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
I can't think of many (if any) student contributions I've valued here but there have been plenty from teachers.[/b]
I think you might be too biased and preconceived to even recognize a good contribution from a student. I would do a boudle blind test where you must indicate contributions you value without knowing whether they come from teachers, students, children or guitarists. I bet you would suddenly choose many contributions that don't come from teachers. Besides you might as well failed to value many things that deserved to be valued. A lot of great ideas are rejected and ridiculed. Actually according to some, being rejected is the first stage of every great revolutionary idea.

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#943486 - 11/13/08 09:10 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
 Quote:
Originally posted by Danny Niklas:
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
I can't think of many (if any) student contributions I've valued here but there have been plenty from teachers.[/b]
I think you might be too biased and preconceived to even recognize a good contribution from a student. I would do a boudle blind test where you must indicate contributions you value without knowing whether they come from teachers, students, children or guitarists. I bet you would suddenly choose many contributions that don't come from teachers. Besides you might as well failed to value many things that deserved to be valued. A lot of great ideas are rejected and ridiculed. Actually according to some, being rejected is the first stage of every great revolutionary idea. [/b]
Not to pick on kbk, but I would add that based on following this forum now for a while, what might be valued by one person one day might then be rejected by the same person the next, and sometimes all in the same thread. These subjective judgments have tended to shift over time (depending on whether you believe in that concept today) and/or follow the way the wind is blowing.

IMHO teachers who aren't open to listening to students or other (less experienced) teachers risk not learning themselves or not finding out how good or bad they really are.

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#943487 - 11/13/08 09:13 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
theJourney Offline
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Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
I actually think that this is a pretty good teaching forum compared to some of the others out there where 95% of the threads seem to be devoted to contracts and locking students in a year in advance, student penalties for scheduling issues, setting and raising rates, moaning about terrible parents, lazy kids, etc. At least the piano and the learning process is mentioned if not detailed in a great many of the threads on this teaching forum.

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#943488 - 11/13/08 09:52 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Piano*Dad Offline
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Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10362
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
 Quote:
moaning about terrible parents, lazy kids, etc.
Here the terrible parents can counterattack!

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#943489 - 11/13/08 10:14 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
jotur Online   blank
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5525
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
I chime in here occasionally when I think I have some experience/insight into a question. I don't teach piano, but I teach/have taught many other subjects, both in the classroom and one-on-one. (The idea that my teaching experience has no relevance if I don't teach piano *has* been floated in this forum, though, by one person. I don't agree, of course.)

But I agree with those who say - if you don't want to answer questions from students - don't. If a particular thread seems irrelevant to you, don't read it. I take those responsibilites on myself, and expect that others are mature enough to do so.

I agree with those who prefer this to be an open forum, as are all the forums here. We don't keep teachers out of the ABF, or beginners out of the piano forum, or non-classical questions out of the piano forum. Sometimes posters are referred to another forum if it seems they will get more responses there. Pretty much it's self-regulating, and I like that. I learn from many many people, not just those I might *think* I can learn from.

And I, too, will reiterate - even if this were closed to comments from others, it is *read* all over the world. Google your user name. If you don't want prospective students who are internet savvy to read what you have to say here, then don't say it here. If you want a non-public readable forum so you can say whatever you want without repercussions, and you want to regulate in some way I can't fathom who is on the forum, then you need a different vehicle than a teachers-only forum here. Perhaps, as someone suggested, a list-serve, or a yahoo group or something. Those options are available, but I like having PW as a group of open forums.

Thank you to all who have voiced support for open forums. We all learn from each other.

Cathy
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#943490 - 11/13/08 11:36 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2911
Loc: UK.
Come on guys, we all know this is the best forum going. Don't mess with it.
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#943491 - 11/13/08 04:16 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Highlander One Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 111
Loc: Texas
I think everyone needs to relax a bit.......


H1
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Piano study since 1969
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#943492 - 11/13/08 08:54 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Jotur, I'll own that thought. (The idea that my teaching experience has no relevance if I don't teach piano *has* been floated in this forum, though, by one person. I don't agree, of course.)

There are several teachers of other subjects in the forums, I'm sure. I know of some.

The problem is that the piano needs both a physical and mental stimulation from a human in order to be played. The study of touches, techniques, histories of composers, their lives and the era they lived in, the quality of their instruments, the person you are teaching as an entity in a private lesson, in half of an hour to an hour each week, is supposed to make progress by showing or demonstrating their ability to perform back (the "test") of what is covered in lessons.

A piano teacher teaches physical movement as well as thinking skills, time management for the task, priority setting, in detail how to practice suggestions, helps the student stay motivated, the list is long and unfinished here.

Just knowing about a subject does not a teacher of it make. Having some experience in teaching yourself you feel that you know how to teach someone piano. Chances are you don't. You can teach only to the place that you can play, and then the success of that is not guaranteed. It really isn't.

I am a fine piano teacher or I wouldn't have students study with me for 8 years, parents paying a half year lessons fee or a year's in advance. I would not have lasted for 38 years of teaching is I could not produce.

Exactly why do you choose to pick on my teaching, or on my thoughts, philosophies, or most things I express.

My most severe critics in PWF are 1) a math teacher, self taught pianist and other instruments, I believe, 2)a psychology teacher, self taught pianist, new age, 3) a teacher with 2 years experience in the class room and then a change of careers, self employed, studied a different instument, learning piano by self teaching. I'm sure you are happy in the way you have become musicians and in what you do musically.

What IS the problem please. I am so tired of receiving come-uppances from these adult piano students who think their classroom experiences in one subject matter, transfers to discussing the teaching of a musical instrument. And, another source of amazement to me, is, people who play piano but do not teach either at all, or not much, very as verbal in the teaching forum as they are.

When there is lots of posting from people other than piano teachers, it changes the slant, the contents, the objectives, the outcome of a topic in development. Diversion. Staying on topic becomes hard to do.

Misinformation that will possibly harm another beginner in piano because they don't know what is good information and what is not, are impacted.

I don't think new forums are the answer, I think that knowing who you are and what you can do as a musician is more important, and if you post as freely as if you were a piano teacher, you should ask yourself why you post here with most of your topics here being to provoke me and put me in my place.

I think the term "Piano Teachers Forum" should be explicit enough to show that primary usage is for piano teachers.

I've said it clearly. This is the problem that I have been having. I'm not proud of having this problem, but it is surely about time the problem stopped. It feels like harrassment, it must be harrassment.

As people have been saying, if you don't like it, don't read it. I don't think that works very well either.

Out of ideas.

Betty

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#943493 - 11/13/08 09:27 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Piano*Dad Offline
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Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Wow, what a defensive blast! Who is the math teacher, I wonder? The Psychology teacher is obvious. \:D

Nobody is picking on you, Betty. This is not about you. Many of us simply disagree with your reasoning and your exclusionist viewpoint.

By my count, the number of teachers actively posting who would rather exclude non-teachers (however that is defined) seems to be a tiny minority. The rest think that such an exclusion would impoverish the forum itself and/or be impossible to implement as a practical matter.

Whether or not you are a fine teacher is immaterial. Insights can come from all quarters, and fine teachers usually have the intellectual curiosity to appreciate that.

Most threads here are NOT about the class of problems that involves the truly fine points of teaching the piano that ONLY a piano teacher would care about or have the requisite expertise to discuss. When such threads appear, guess who dominates the discussion? The teachers, of course. The rest of us simply ignore the thread entirely because it either holds no interest for us or we realize we have little or nothing to offer.

Now, if you are talking about the virtues or vices of having a parent in the room during lessons, a parent perspective might very well inform the discussion. I frankly don't understand why that is so difficult to appreciate.

This is not a private clubhouse on whose door you can tack a "parents stay out" sign. And as many teacher posters have argued, why would you want to?
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#943494 - 11/13/08 09:40 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17777
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
 Quote:
Originally posted by Piano World:
I could easily create a "teachers only" forum, which would require proving you are a teacher (of course, that would quickly become a slippery slope).

And, as a "private" forum, only approved members would be able to access or post there.

But...
First I question just how much it would be used, second I question why.

The reason I chose to leave the Teacher Forum public (as I did with the piano tuner-technicians) is BECAUSE I knew the general public would want to peek, and possibly participate.

And while they are at it, they just might learn something that will make them appreciate their teachers (and tuners) a little more.

And, their teachers might learn some things about how their students viewed their teaching, or what they might want, or what concerns them.

Sure, you have to put up with those annoying amateur questions occassionally, but guess what, they are your customers, and they want to learn too.

Now if enough of you really would like a private forum, let me know. But please keep in mind that the "public" sections of our forums are not just for the participants, but also for the "public" to learn.

With well over 1 million posts, we now come up in any number of searches on the major search engines. This means more people are finding us, and in turn, finding you.

And I hope, those who choose to stick around a while enjoy themselves, are inspired to own and learn to play piano, and have some fun! [/b]
Betty, what part of Frank's post did you not understand?

I hear your message that you do not want me, and other non-teachers, to post on this forum any more. You are one of the very few people on this forum, if not the only person, expressing that opinion. The vast majority of others voicing an opinion, including the *only* person whose opinion on this issue counts, and that is Frank Baxter, the founder of this forum, welcomes the contributions of non-teachers.

I'm sorry, Betty, but you don't get to decide who posts here or not. It's as simple as that.

[oops. Freudian slip edited out. ;\) ]
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#943495 - 11/13/08 10:07 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
jotur Online   blank
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
Wow, what a defensive blast! Who is the math teacher, I wonder? The Psychology teacher is obvious. \:D [/b]
Where is that "waving-your-hand-in-the-air" icon when you need it \:D

Also freshman composition, folkdancing, skiing, management and organizational behavior, introduction to business, Sunday school, et al. Some of which have physical components \:D All of which have critical thinking components. All of which have individual learning style components. And other components which, to me, are applicable to learning/teaching/playing piano.

 Quote:
Most threads here are NOT about the class of problems that involves the truly fine points of teaching the piano that ONLY a piano teacher would care about or have the requisite expertise to discuss. When such threads appear, guess who dominates the discussion? The teachers, of course. The rest of us simply ignore the thread entirely because it either holds no interest for us or we realize we have little or nothing to offer.[/QB]
I agree. I don't get in on the threads about fingering for scales, unless we get to the point where we point out that some fingering in a piece, even for scale-like passages, depends on what comes before and after the passage, sort of like running gates in a ski race \:\)

As far as I can tell, the subjects I have taught have components which are applicable to learning to play piano. IMHO, learning basic math for adults is every bit as much a life skill requiring commitment, organization, maturity, etc, as learning to play piano. I could be wrong, of course - I have been more than once in my life.

So, most of my comments in this forum are on things that I might have experience teaching in freshman composition, or lapses in logic, or a statement that not everyone learns the same way - often with myself as counterexample, or a statement of how I learned a particular skill. Others seem to be able to ignore my comments quite well if they don't seem relevant to them \:D

And no, I don't teach piano. I do, however, pass on to other piano players ways that I approach playing for dancing, or riffs I use in the left hand for accompaniment, or anything else they might learn by looking over my shoulder. And I learn a lot from other piano players the same way. Music is a community event for me.

Cathy
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#943496 - 11/13/08 10:57 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
currawong Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
Wow, what a defensive blast! Who is the math teacher, I wonder? [/b]
I was wondering the same thing \:\) . Thanks for clearing that up, jotur.

But this seemed directed at me (or do I flatter myself?):
And, another source of amazement to me, is, people who play piano but do not teach either at all, or not much, very as verbal in the teaching forum as they are. [/b]

Well, Betty, if this is referring to me I'm sorry that you don't appreciate my contributions. But at least I've been a source of amazement \:\) . I wonder how many hours you need to teach per week to be a Real Teacher? Or for how many years? I know you've been teaching for 38 years. I may not have a large number of piano students at the moment, but I've actually been teaching piano pretty well continuously for 41 years. I haven't mentioned it before because, frankly, I didn't think it was necessarily all that relevant.

Let's get back to "creative exchange of ideas" and not stress so much about who is qualified to join in the exchange.
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#943497 - 11/13/08 11:10 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Gary D. Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by currawong:
Let's get back to "creative exchange of ideas" and not stress so much about who is qualified to join in the exchange.

\:\)
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#943498 - 11/14/08 01:09 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
William A.P.M. Offline
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^ Could not agree more.

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#943499 - 11/14/08 09:32 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Knabe26 Offline
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As I've said before, I don't typically post much because I don't have much free time (yes, too busy teaching piano!). I often feel guilty for just reading and not contributing more, but by the time I get here, others have already said whatever I might have.

Here, now, though, I must speak out. I am amazed at the recent uproar over who might be welcome (allowed?) to post. I feel this forum would be greatly diminished without the contributions of everyone. I have learned so much from students, parents, and non-teaching pianists (self-taught and otherwise). I think the input of people with experiences in other fields is invaluable, and I would greatly miss it if it went away. Please stay and contribute (and ask questions!) and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
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#943500 - 11/14/08 10:31 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
theJourney Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Monica K.:

[oops. Freudian slip edited out. ;\) ] [/b]
Darn. I missed the Betty Bloop.

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#943501 - 11/14/08 11:07 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
rocket88 Offline
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I think that Betty is correct in saying that teaching piano correctly is a unique body/mind/endeavor, unlike anything else. It also includes ancillary teaching such as time management skills, keeping motivated skills, goal-setting, facing your insecurities, etc.

I have posted before that the only thing I can think of that is similar to teaching piano is teaching golf, in that a successful golf learning experince involves very similar body/mind control, and the ancillary skills touched on above. (perhaps being a surgeon is also very similar).

Therefore, having a gift of teaching, and knowing a bit of piano, does not make a qualified piano teacher.

I have been told many many times that I am a very good teacher...but I would never even think of taking what essentially are amateur golf skills and trying to teach golf, although I know I could bluff my way through for a while simply by using my teaching skills.

But I would misteach people, and/or leave out some small but important ingredient.

That is why, when I have a piano teaching question/problem, I want to hear from a well-qualified piano teacher. Sure, the opinions of others such as students and parents is potentially helpful, but I want to hear first and foremost from the experts.

Its like having a legal problem/question, and asking for advice from someone who's hobby is reading about law, or asking the parent of someone who reads about law, rather than asking a real practicing lawyer.

As for the forum, it should be left as is. The input from students and parents can be helpful and valuable, and often is very insightful, but I want to hear first from the working teachers.

And, trying to police the forum to exclude non-teachers is a big can of worms best left shut.
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#943502 - 11/14/08 12:20 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Blackbird Offline
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Just for the record.

I’m an adult student. A new and probably very poor self taught one.

I have never posted on this forum.

I don’t know anything really about piano teaching.

I am not an academic.

But

I feel very sorry for a minority of this forum who want to potentially lose insight, variation of viewpoint on subjects under discussion etc, etc. On the basis that another person doesn’t quite fit a predefined standard.

I don’t teach, I professionally tend to see humanity at it worse and have been a student of that behaviour for the last 25 years. Strangely the biggest lesson I ever learnt was not imparted by a peer, a theorist in my field or a psychologist.

It was “taught” to me by a previously unknown 11 year old girl. What she taught me I’ve valued in my professional and private life more than any other single insight over the last 10 years.

But hey, I could have not listened or shut the door in her face. She would not have been any the poorer for it.

I most certainly would have, and in total ignorance I wouldn’t have realised it.

Now, back off to the beginner’s forum.
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#943503 - 11/14/08 12:23 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keyboardklutz Offline
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Good sense rocket.
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#943504 - 11/14/08 12:27 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Blackbird:


It was “taught” to me by a previously unknown 11 year old girl. What she taught me I’ve valued in my professional and private life more than any other single insight over the last 10 years.

But hey, I could have not listened or shut the door in her face. She would not have been any the poorer for it.

I most certainly would have, and in total ignorance I wouldn’t have realised it.
[/b]
I seem to have missed the bit where you say "and what she taught me was..."
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#943505 - 11/14/08 02:09 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
ProdigalPianist Offline
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I certainly hope none of my posts come across as being "know it all" or trying to tell piano teachers how to teach.

I have said before that I did not have the greatest experience as a child piano student, and I hope that others might learn from what I went thru (parents, that it's important for a child to have good quality teaching and a good quality instrument; teachers, that not everyone is as good as you are and don't make assumptions about what your transfer student knows, even if they play relatively well).

Also, I am aware that someone who has been successful as a piano student, a piano performance or pedagogy major, and a piano teacher (which is, I am assuming, the path many of the teachers here took), might get some insight from someone from a very rural area who had poor instruction at first, was a music ed major, and is now a returning adult amateur and piano student. To be...I guess...a "friendly native guide" for teachers who are interested, into the world of rural students, or failed students, or adult students...

When, for instance, I posted on the 'befriending students' thread, it was to share my experience, which seems to differ greatly from the majority of teachers.

Also, in the interests of full disclosure, it is incredibly frustrating to hear people make pronouncements that "adult students are ___" "adults always ___" "adults never want ___" when these pronouncements are generally negative and, in my experience, pretty inaccurate. I'm not saying the teachers' own experiences are invalid, that would be a ridiculous thing to assert. I just want people who are thinking about teaching adults not to get turned off before they start.
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#943506 - 11/14/08 02:53 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Gary D. Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Blackbird:
I think that Betty is correct in saying that teaching piano correctly is a unique body/mind/endeavor, unlike anything else. It also includes ancillary teaching such as time management skills, keeping motivated skills, goal-setting, facing your insecurities, etc.
I think that is a reasonable statement.
 Quote:

Therefore, having a gift of teaching, and knowing a bit of piano, does not make a qualified piano teacher.
I don't think anyone said it does.
 Quote:

That is why, when I have a piano teaching question/problem, I want to hear from a well-qualified piano teacher. Sure, the opinions of others such as students and parents is potentially helpful, but I want to hear first and foremost from the experts.
I want to hear from people who can give me answers. There are questions that can only be answered by other teachers. However, others are answered better by students.

It depends on the question…
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#943507 - 11/14/08 04:24 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
rocket88 Offline
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Just for the record, Gary, you quoted me, not Blackbird.
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#943508 - 11/14/08 04:28 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
rocket88 Offline
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Gary, I am not trying to pick a fight, but am interested in what questions about teaching are better answered by students rather than teachers. Could you give some examples?
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#943509 - 11/14/08 04:49 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
theJourney Offline
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I can:

- How do you find the time and structure to practice with focus and concentration at the beginning or end of busy work day with other family responsibilities?

- How are lessons every two weeks instead of every week better for some adult students?

- How can you best communicate to your teacher what you want/need to learn in a given lesson and keep the dialog positive and constructive versus judgmental and fault finding?

- How can you tailor your interview with a new teacher to get a fair evaluation of their abilities and the potential match between you two?

- How can you work out ways to learn the "invisible" and that which "only can be felt or experienced" from a teacher relationship which is principally verbal or auditive?

- In your personal experience, what parts of learning the piano are best left unquestioned in a "grasshopper" Zen master relationship style and on what aspects can a student take more of the lead?

etc.

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#943510 - 11/14/08 04:56 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Danny Niklas Offline
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You're overcomplicating and overnanalyzing the whole issue. Arguments stand by their own merits not by the credentials or labels or those who promote them. Anyone might have a valid argument about teaching or teaching methods in spite of who he/she is, and teachers can often learn from non-teachers. I can't think of anything more irrational than judging what makes sense and what doesn't, by the identity of the writer. You never know where insight might come from the next time, you can only be confident that you'll recognize it when you see it.

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#943511 - 11/14/08 05:02 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
theJourney Offline
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Not true. If this were true no one would have believed the ridiculous and vacuous presentation which Colin Powell gave to the security council and hundreds of thousands of innocent people would still be alive. But, because of his position, his "arguments" were believed.

It is irrational to believe that we can separate rationality from more emotional, subjective and personal factors. The identity of the person or institute making an argument is an implicit part of evaluating the argument in many or most settings. Someone's reputation is shorthand enabling our ability to make integrative and timely judgments. Human beings are not merely symbolic logic executing automatons.

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#943512 - 11/14/08 05:16 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Danny Niklas Offline
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It's a common habit in our society, but that doesn't make it less irrational. I'm not an automaton, and actually I don't believe in inhibiting spontaneity. And yet it is natural for me to judge a person for his/her true merits and not irrelevant factors related to social stereotypes, limiting labels, fictional status quo and other bad ways to lump people together and create fake categories.

To judge the identity of the writer/speker instead of his argument might lead to believe him arbitrarily even when you shouldn't, or not believe him arbitrarily even when you should.
A fallacious argument doesn't become less fallacious when you find out its promoter is a professional and viceversa a valid argument doesn't become less valid when you find out its promoter is an amateur. At least, this is how it should work.

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#943513 - 11/14/08 05:24 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
theJourney Offline
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Only Spock would believe it could ever work that way.

80% of the populous couldn't recognize a fallacious argument if it were staring them in the face. If they had to reduce this thread to an "If A then B..." structure and solve it they wouldn't be able to codify it let alone be able to consistently and correctly apply rules of logic in a purely rational fashion.

They/We rely on proxies to make determinations, such as the reputation of those making an argument. It simply isn't smart or effective (or as piano*dad has pointed out efficient) not to do so.

Actually, it has also been proven that humans can only take decisions because we experience emotions. Persons with brain damage who are unable to experience emotion become unable to make fundamental choices and decisions because they don't have their gut to pull the trigger.

In problems that are not discrete or possible to be well defined (such as something as complex and nebulous as piano pedagogy) there will always be a gray area which needs to be processed somehow by your gray cells. They tend to run through the gut. Ignore your gut and risk your own peril.

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#943514 - 11/14/08 05:44 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keystring Online   content
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 Quote:
I am interested in what questions about teaching are better answered by students rather than teachers. Could you give some examples?

- What do adult students want to learn?

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#943515 - 11/14/08 06:02 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keystring Online   content
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I have gone through a dozen posts, and I cannot find anyone quoting a book in discussing pedagogy, re:
 Quote:
People do not become piano teachers just by parroting the pages of a book back - and there is a lot of that going on.

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#943516 - 11/14/08 06:03 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
rocket88 Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by keystring:
 Quote:
I am interested in what questions about teaching are better answered by students rather than teachers. Could you give some examples?

- What do adult students want to learn? [/b]
I don't see that as a question "about" teaching, but rather what to teach.
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#943517 - 11/14/08 06:23 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Danny Niklas Offline
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Just few examples. A question about how to reach proper effortless coordination to students who seems to be to tense and tight might be best answered by a non-teacher with a knowledge on Alexander Technique and body mapping than a teacher without such knowledge. A question about how to deal with a certain student on a family situation, might be best answered by a non-teacher having passed through a similar family situation, than a teacher. A question about pieces that students might like, might be better answered by a non-teacher which collects sheets and know several alternative contemporary composers for young pianists, than a teacher without such knowledge. A question about teaching courses might be best answered by a non-teacher who attended not well known but revolutionary courses, than a teacher who doesn't know about their existence. A question about answering students question about the mechanics of piano, might be best answered by a non-teacher with a deep knowledge of piano making and acoustic. Question about how to deal, from an human point of view, with certain students, might be answered by non-teachers who might have insight into dealing with people. Questions about studio policies, might best answered by the recipients of the teaching themselves. Question about sight-reading might as well be best answered by practicing sight-reading who have revolutionary insight on the topic or method to suggest, that worked for them. Ideas on how to propose active listening and concerts attending to student, might be answered by whatever person who might have interesting thoughts about motivating other or might have experience in motivating others (even if in a different field) or might remember how he/she has been motivatedin similar situations. The list of how everyone could benefit from different point of views, different perspectives and unique insight, could be infinite. It doesn't make sense to limit such resources.

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#943518 - 11/14/08 06:47 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
DeepElem Offline
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It doesn't make sense for there to be a private forum here, this is a public internet forum.

A private "teachers only" forum is what I'd expect to be provided by some piano teachers professional society. That way you know the people there are serious because they presumably had to pay dues to get access.

The only thing I don't like about non teachers arguing with teachers in the threads is that it often derails the thread. But that doesn't have anything to do with teachers and non teachers in the same forum, that's just the nature of internet forums.

Betty, I hope this doesn't diminish your participation here.
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#943519 - 11/15/08 02:29 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by rocket88:
Gary, I am not trying to pick a fight, but am interested in what questions about teaching are better answered by students rather than teachers. Could you give some examples? [/b]
There was that thread about the smelly teacher, but I'd say that really belonged elsewhere anyway (notice we have no student's forum). Even with that, you need to recognize that teachers were once students but that isn't the case the other way around. tJ's examples can and should be answered by teachers.
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#943520 - 11/15/08 02:57 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Gary D. Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by rocket88:
Gary, I am not trying to pick a fight, but am interested in what questions about teaching are better answered by students rather than teachers. Could you give some examples? [/b]
If I am teaching something, I may use several different ways to explain it. The concept remains the same, the explanation is different. I need feedback to find out which explanation works best.

This is precisely why I always ask, "Which way connected best with you?"

I don't change what I teach, but I do continue to refine HOW I teach. I am often shocked at what does work, and what does not…
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#943521 - 11/15/08 03:11 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keyboardklutz Offline
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It's pretty rare we get that type of response (the helpful 'this how you helped me understand the concept' type) on this forum. Usually, from non-teachers, it's 'no, it's like this' kinda response.
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#943522 - 11/15/08 04:50 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by theJourney:
They/We rely on proxies to make determinations, such as the reputation of those making an argument. It simply isn't smart or effective (or as piano*dad has pointed out efficient) not to do so.

Actually, it has also been proven that humans can only take decisions because we experience emotions. Persons with brain damage who are unable to experience emotion become unable to make fundamental choices and decisions because they don't have their gut to pull the trigger.

In problems that are not discrete or possible to be well defined (such as something as complex and nebulous as piano pedagogy) there will always be a gray area which needs to be processed somehow by your gray cells. They tend to run through the gut. Ignore your gut and risk your own peril. [/b]
So, so true. As a teenager my heart sank when I discovered there was such a thing as rhetoric. I just couldn't believe it! I had to elucidate it for a 15 year old earlier this year. His face! Teenagers discover the rational and think they hold the power of truth in their hands. They do, but nobody wants to know.
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#943523 - 11/15/08 05:11 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keystring Online   content
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 Quote:
It's pretty rare we get that type of response (the helpful 'this how you helped me understand the concept' type) on this forum. Usually, from non-teachers, it's 'no, it's like this' kinda response.
Do you ask your students which of several approaches helped them?

In regards to your different example, I have from time to time told my teacher if a particular thing he did was especially helpful. Would you welcome that kind of thing from your students?

In posts I often see a teacher saying that they cannot tell whether a particular thing was helpful to a student. If this is so, would it not be helpful for students to let them know? If they are excluded, how can that happen? Then teachers will keep wondering.

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#943524 - 11/15/08 05:16 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keystring Online   content
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 Quote:
Even with that, you need to recognize that teachers were once students but that isn't the case the other way around. tJ's examples can and should be answered by teachers.
A couple of questions about that. TJ's examples involve the situation of adult students with adult responsibilities. Is it likely that teachers were once students carrying adult responsibilities if they began lessons at age 7? Will they, in fact, be able to draw on any experience if that is not the case? Therefore, can it help a teacher guide an adult student by having heard experiences and what works from other adult students?

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#943525 - 11/15/08 05:19 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keyboardklutz Offline
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Loath though I am to be anecdotal - I say to my students "I try loads of different ways to help you reach an understanding, that's why you need to let me know when you've 'got it'." then lots of "now, you explain it to me" or "Can you illustrate what I've just said" or "What's important about this? To what does it relate? And why?" and so on and so on until I'm convinced the point is got across.
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#943526 - 11/15/08 05:22 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Danny Niklas Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by theJourney:
Only Spock would believe it could ever work that way.

80% of the populous couldn't recognize a fallacious argument if it were staring them in the face. If they had to reduce this thread to an "If A then B..." structure and solve it they wouldn't be able to codify it let alone be able to consistently and correctly apply rules of logic in a purely rational fashion.

They/We rely on proxies to make determinations, such as the reputation of those making an argument. It simply isn't smart or effective (or as piano*dad has pointed out efficient) not to do so.[/b]
And yet your anecdote by Colin Powell proves otherwise. I think we rely on irrelevant social-mediated factors like reputation, age, gender and even skin color in order to judge, when we have no other information to base our decision on.
But as long as we have actual merits, rather than epheral often meaningless labels, to compare, then that's what we would naturally use to make an informed decision. Human nature resorts to labels and stereotypes and symbols when better basis for a choice are lacking. It's only in this society that most of us have lost a critical spirit by default in favour of total submission to government, experts and institution.

Should I choose whom to hire for a job in an hypothetical comics publishing studio, I would never choose according to his/her look, height, age, popularity, curriculum, diplomas. I would simply ask them to show me what they can actually do on a sheet. The better one, not the one collecting more "institution medals" deserve to get the job.

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#943527 - 11/15/08 05:22 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by keystring:
TJ's examples involve the situation of adult students with adult responsibilities. Is it likely that teachers were once students carrying adult responsibilities if they began lessons at age 7? [/b]
Yes in my case. I will admit I always think teachers, both class and individual, have missed out if they've not done a 'real' job (said as he ducks).
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#943528 - 11/15/08 05:38 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
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 Quote:
Yes in my case. I will admit I always think teachers, both class and individual, have missed out if they've not done a 'real' job.
This should be to your advantage when teaching an adult, I would think. Does it help?
I imagine though that if the adult does not carry the same amount of dedication that you did, you might be more impatient about it than a teacher who studied as a child and shrugs his shoulders saying "Oh well, adults are too busy."

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#943529 - 11/15/08 05:47 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keyboardklutz Offline
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I never complain about an adult student's lack of practice. Merely point out how much a certain task requires.
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#943530 - 11/15/08 06:00 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keystring Online   content
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 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
I never complain about an adult student's lack of practice. Merely point out how much a certain task requires. [/b]
I would find that helpful in planning my practicing. Thank you.

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#943531 - 11/15/08 06:07 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
theJourney Offline
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One of the most useful things one of my teachers said to me in the past was "What you want to achieve takes a minimum of 2-3 hours / day, 6-7 days / week of mindful, focused effective practice. There are no shortcuts. You either want it or you don't."

Students should never have to excuse themselves to their teacher, just to themselves.

On the other hand, there is nothing more forcful like having the piece you thought you really wanted to learn ceremoniously set aside during the lesson and having something "easy & beneath you" placed on the music stand by the teacher with the remark "I think this piece is more realistic based on the amount of time and effort you are willing and able to put into your practice right now." Oops.

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#943532 - 11/15/08 06:17 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keystring Online   content
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 Quote:
- What do adult students want to learn?
---------------------------------------------

I don't see that as a question "about" teaching, but rather what to teach
Sorry, you were asking Gary specifically so I shouldn't have put my two cents in.

However, I realize that my answer could be understood two ways. If "what we want to learn" is seen in terms of repertoire or genre, such as particular pieces or classical/folk/jazz then this does not involve teaching. In case that's how you took my answer:

I was thinking in terms of some of the things that came out in recent surveys. Many adults wanted more structure, theory, technique, reading - the formal harder stuff. But only yesterday a teacher advised that many adults want the opposite of that: playing a few "songs", fake books and no reading, working relatively superficially through a sense of lack of time. This is not just repertoire, but also the entire approach to teaching itself. If the mindset of a large number of adults is different than generally supposed, would it be helpful to get this across? Or will it not make a difference?

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#943533 - 11/15/08 09:19 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
rocket88 Offline
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 Quote:
If the mindset of a large number of adults is different than generally supposed, would it be helpful to get this across? Or will it not make a difference? [/QB]
Sure...and those are questions I always ask my students.

Perhaps I misread yours and others focus...teachers do need much input as to what a student wants to learn, what their time commitment is, and certainly what teaching approach works.

That is all very different from having the student tell the teacher what and how much to study regarding scales, theory, technique, etc, which I thought some were advocating.
_________________________
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#943534 - 11/15/08 09:30 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Danny Niklas Offline
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Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
 Quote:
Originally posted by rocket88:
[QUOTE]
That is all very different from having the student tell the teacher what and how much to study regarding scales, theory, technique, etc, which I thought some were advocating. [/b]
The idea was to promote open communication. The student doesn't have to be always the passive clueless recipient of someone else arbitrary instructions. The learning path can be discussed and developed openly together.

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#943535 - 11/15/08 09:55 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keystring Online   content
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 Quote:
That is all very different from having the student tell the teacher what and how much to study regarding scales, theory, technique, etc, which I thought some were advocating.
I see what you're saying, Rocket. I think it's more that many want these things, while some teachers seem to assume the opposite. I have some other thoughts, but it would be too long. Suffice it to say that I have seen the role of a student who is doing well acting as a kind of bridge, allowing a less experience student to understand this new world and then be able to mesh with lessons and his teacher. It is like initially we speak a different language and come from different planets and another adult or teen student is more - um - biworldly? This has seemed to work well. I'll leave it at that.

Ultimately we have to learn the language of the studio and the teacher, even if a teacher tries to adjust to us.

(Um, back to Gary's original question - which was teacher to teacher?)

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#943536 - 11/15/08 11:03 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Betty Patnude Offline
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Danny, I think you like to incite riots!

When you say: "The student doesn't have to be always the passive clueless recipient of someone else arbitrary instructions", are you saying there is a victim and a perpretrator involved?

I'd like to think that we, as teachers, are more civilized than that.

Can't people just be themselves at their piano lessons, no issues, no hidden agendas, no personality conflicts - having a good time collaborating together, getting some work done, empowering each other, enjoying a musical experience together.

We're not supposed to warp them, and they are not supposed to allow themselves to be warped, and vice versa. Can't we all play nice to each other whether we are teachers or piano students, we are all human being.

A little bit of manners and self respect goes a long way toward avoiding disturbances, anyone's aggressive behavior, and embarrasing our mutual reputations.

I really like people! I think friends are former strangers.

Piano teachers are not beasts.

And, what is this...."even if the teacher tries to adjust us" about? I'm afraid to keep reading! And all this in the Piano Teacher's Forum!

Tell me again, please, how badly I misunderstand things. I can't wait to be told.

Not so, so not so!

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#943537 - 11/15/08 11:41 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Gary D. Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
It's pretty rare we get that type of response (the helpful 'this how you helped me understand the concept' type) on this forum. Usually, from non-teachers, it's 'no, it's like this' kinda response. [/b]
I have seen posts here and there by students of different ages telling how their teachers helped them, and what "clicked".

The problem in this medium is that communication is limited to text, with some graphics now and then and links to sound files.
 Quote:

Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
I never complain about an adult student's lack of practice. Merely point out how much a certain task requires.
I do the same thing, but I would extend this idea to high school students.

However, there are degrees of "lack of practice". For some it turns into no practice at all, most weeks. I'm not willing to continue teaching anyone when that happens.
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#943538 - 11/16/08 01:19 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Gary D.:
The problem in this medium is that communication is limited to text, with some graphics now and then and links to sound files. [/b]
When I joined PW I thought if any good is to come it would be through videos. I'm still of that persuasion.
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#943539 - 11/16/08 05:34 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Danny Niklas Offline
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Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
 Quote:
Originally posted by Betty Patnude:
When you say: "The student doesn't have to be always the passive clueless recipient of someone else arbitrary instructions", are you saying there is a victim and a perpretrator involved?
[/b]

I'm saying "there could be".
My tense was hypothetical.
I wanted to elaborate on the fact that no one has ever claimed the student should tell the teacher what and how to teach. What has been claimed is that there can be collaboration between the students and teacher, so that many choices are made or discussed together. This would avoid the "hypothesis" of being a passive recipient of the teacher arbitrary instruction.

This has happened to me, this has happened to others. There are "teachers" of every flavour and you shouldn't feel belittled just because that is acknowledge. You is you, other teachers are other teachers.

You're lumping teacher together and getting personally offended by association. But being a teacher doesn't say much about someone's personality and humanity. Believe it or not there are very cruel, imcompetent, inhumane teachers out there. Like there are very cruel, inhumane, incompetent lawyers. Like there are vert cruel, incompetent, inhumane doctors. And so on. Your job doesn't say anytning about the person you are. You know for example that they found out a dentist who used to abuse his female patients while they were sedated for a teeth operation?
He also filmed them. A friend of my mother was literally killed in a clinic. She was beaten, tied and negated her medications for asthma. She suffucated while begging for water. Everyone knows what happened there, but it was impossible to find an unbiased coroner and an unbiased doctor, that would admit the sin of a collegue. They protect each other, just because the reputation of one might decrease the reputation of the whole category. This is sick and insane, in my opinion.

 Quote:
I'd like to think that we, as teachers, are more civilized than that.
[/b]

Some are and some aren't. Why do you want so strongly to lump everything into one category and make broad judgement about it? I had teachers who were not civilized at all. And I had teachers who were fantastic people with an extra-human kindness.

 Quote:
We're not supposed to warp them, and they are not supposed to allow themselves to be warped, and vice versa.
[/b]

But it happens. ("it happens" means that such scenario do happens, not that it happens in every teacher-student relationship) And so people here are entitled to talk hypothetically about how they envision a better teacher-student relationship. Why you take offense from this it's what I don't understand. You're Betty and you represent your teaching and your ethics. You don't represent all the teachers and the huge variety of competence, respect, humanity and even sanity there's among them.

 Quote:
Tell me again, please, how badly I misunderstand things. I can't wait to be told.
[/b]

You're taking it personally, that's your misunderstanding. People here are talking about a category which encompass every flavour of human behaviors (including abusive ones). That's why being a teacher is nothing but a label, it doesn't define anything else about the person.

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#943540 - 11/16/08 06:08 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keystring Online   content
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 Quote:
Can't people just be themselves at their piano lessons, no issues, no hidden agendas, no personality conflicts - having a good time collaborating together, getting some work done, empowering each other, enjoying a musical experience together.
That would be very nice indeed. In fact, that is how I see music lessons. It is how I have experienced music lessons.

The bottom line is trust. Trust of the teacher. And also trust of the student!

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#943541 - 11/16/08 10:49 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Betty Patnude Offline
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Registered: 06/11/07
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Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Danny,

This is just too much information, and it seems to me that you post these kinds of things telling us how piano teachers and the world is to you. Are you not a young man who has seen about 2 decades of life so far? Why are you consumed with talking about the worst of situations and being the bearer of doom?

It's sad to me that this is your opinion through experiences you have had, and things that capture your attention, making drama of these things goes against my taste. It might be tolerable if it were an occasional happening, but to me, your perception is that you are in the know about "how the world turns", or maybe I should say "how the stomach turns". Diabolical. Negative to extremes. Focusing on the downside, too much explanations, too many details!

Danny said above: "This has happened to me, this has happened to others. There are "teachers" of every flavour and you shouldn't feel belittled just because that is acknowledge. You is you, other teachers are other teachers. You're lumping teacher together and getting personally offended by association. But being a teacher doesn't say much about someone's personality and humanity. Believe it or not there are very cruel, imcompetent, inhumane teachers out there. Like there are very cruel, inhumane, incompetent lawyers. Like there are vert cruel, incompetent, inhumane doctors. And so on. Your job doesn't say anytning about the person you are. You know for example that they found out a dentist who used to abuse his female patients while they were sedated for a teeth operation?
He also filmed them. A friend of my mother was literally killed in a clinic. She was beaten, tied and negated her medications for asthma. She suffucated while begging for water. Everyone knows what happened there, but it was impossible to find an unbiased coroner and an unbiased doctor, that would admit the sin of a collegue. They protect each other, just because the reputation of one might decrease the reputation of the whole category. This is sick and insane, in my opinion."

Danny, do you have students and teach music yourself? Has your education prepared you to teach piano? Do you talk in this authoritative voice in your private life, or is this your "writing style" speaking?

If you don't mind, I'll quote you one more time, as I feel the same way about what I've expressed in this posting: "This is sick and insane, in my opinion."

Enough of the "warp"!

What happened to the "creative exchange of ideas"? It can't exist in the nether world.

We are a composite of what we think, say, and subscribe to, personally and publically. We each have to find our own best way to "be" in this world. We reflect our "being" out into the world, and hopefully, it is for the betterment of both our inner world and the outer world of society.

That's all for now! Sermon over!

Betty Patnude

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#943542 - 11/16/08 11:35 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Danny Niklas Offline
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I don't understand Betty, so I'm not sure what to reply. I just wrote an anecdote, a true fact which can be read on newspapers as well. I don't understand how that makes me negative. It is an important fact to me, because it, more than ever, taught me not to lump people together by their professional categories and also the reality of how people within the same category might protect each other in spite of what they did. My opinion is to judge every person and situation individually, and I can't understand why this is sad to you. I have shared a lot of positive experiences and encouraging words and I'm actually an optimistic person. Diabolic? I can't even watch horror movies! Getting sick to your stomach because of sad and unfair things that happens everyday to people is understandable, hiding the head in the sad and pretending they don't happen or feeling disturbed by someone mentioning them, is not. I post those "kind of things" when they're needed (or I think they are) and I post other kind of things, when other kind of things are needed. I'm not consumed with anything. I respect you Betty and it's unquestionable you love and respect your students (from the wise and tender words you have often used in describing your relationships with them) and I liked your last sentence - I really like people! I think friends are former strangers - because it's what I think too and I agree with.
But I'm politically incorrect and outspoken to the core, and come from a lower class life mentality and I'm afraid I will keep getting on your nerve, no matter what.

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#943543 - 11/16/08 12:58 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Betty Patnude Offline
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Danny,

When you say: "But I'm politically incorrect and outspoken to the core, and come from a lower class life mentality and I'm afraid I will keep getting on your nerve, no matter what", you bring to mind some things of mine that I have spent my life trying to rise above.

I had few privileges in the family I was born into, and I considered myself a financial burden to them. I had a spark of intelligence in a home challenged with every day necessities being too much to handle. Sadly, fear, indifference, and ignorance dominated the minds of the people who raised me from childhood. Things showing me daily what I did not want for myself.

One of the best opportunities in our lives is for us to shape our lives to our own satisfaction. To determine what is worth talking about, how to spend our time on relevant things.
How to forget our pasts that haunt us.

Sometimes the thing that was the biggest handicap to us in our early lives, is the thing that saves us from continuing to behave in the world the way that we were brought up.

Today's habits and truth might be replaced with something better.

You have a lot of potential, Danny, but you can't be truly happy when most of what is your perception has a certain amount of misery to it. Transferred to you by other people, the newspapers you read, the television you watch.

I loved my family dearly, but they were through circumstances trapped into a mindset which was very, very limiting, and from which they could not escape.

I could and did. I think you have to have a dream to aspire to because there are so much mundane distractions that would keep us from our purpose in life.

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#943544 - 11/16/08 01:19 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13787
Loc: Iowa City, IA
I've read all four pages of this topic and I still can't figure out what you people are talking about.

:rolleyes:
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#943545 - 11/16/08 01:33 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keystring Online   content
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I think the original idea was along the lines of an exchange of creative, original, innovative, unusual, interesting thought among teachers. It seems to have morphed.
;\)

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#943546 - 11/16/08 05:44 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
DeepElem Offline
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Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 366
Loc: USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kreisler:
I've read all four pages of this topic and I still can't figure out what you people are talking about.

:rolleyes: [/b]
Ditto
_________________________
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------
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#943547 - 11/16/08 06:48 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Danny Niklas Offline
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Loc: Switzerland
Betty,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I appreciate it. What you said rings so true and liberating to me. You're right. Rather than regretting the past, we might consider it the best thing that happened to us, making us conscious of the need of a better present, we can build. I'll think about what you said, and will try to wipe away some of that misery in my perception.

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#943548 - 11/17/08 02:24 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
theJourney Offline
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Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Group hug! Now, how about getting back to Gary's important question again?

"Whatever happened to creative exchange of ideas here?"

Apparently, based on this morph/hyjack, that is not what brings and keeps some/many/most (teachers) here. Having a place to vent, argue, find fault or take personal offense is not the same thing as sharing content meaningfully.

Perhaps a sub-forum could be better renamed "The Middle School Teacher's Lounge" and could have these threads as stickies:

"Bitter Coffee", "Smoky Clothes", "Stale Doughnuts", "Personal Vendettas, "Repressed Romances", "Nit Picking" and "B&M" (not standing for Band & Music), etc. \:D
Then the rest of the threads could be reserved for relevant content and posts that go off topic could be moved by the moderators to one of the above named stickies...

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#943549 - 11/17/08 05:45 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
lotuscrystal Offline
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Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 304
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
 Quote:
Originally posted by DeepElem:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kreisler:
I've read all four pages of this topic and I still can't figure out what you people are talking about.

:rolleyes: [/b]
Ditto [/b]
roger that

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#943550 - 11/17/08 05:55 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keystring Online   content
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What The Journey said, two posts up. I would love to sit back and lurk, and watch the teachers take off on Gary's idea. I would love to see that happening without a digression on blaming outsiders. I have seen several innovative ideas fall flat in the water. Nobody cared to respond. There was not a non-teacher in sight. In fact, there was nobody in sight. I think that I understand that this is what Gary is talking about. Is it in fact a discussion on "why we aren't posting" or is it a call to post and respond to posts? (Gary?)

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#943551 - 11/17/08 06:28 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
lotuscrystal Offline
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Loc: Melbourne, Australia
With all due respect, being approx. 16 hours difference to most of you, due to time zones, it's quite often hard to be 'present' when ideas are taking off...when I log on...so many threads have gone off-course from their thread title, that I'm overwhelmed as to what to respond to! lol \:\) Don't know about you, but when I log on, their are usually only about 7 logged in members.

Anyone else suffer this 'creative exchange' dilemma? \:\)

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#943552 - 11/17/08 06:32 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keystring Online   content
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Well, that might answer part of the question that was originally asked. Perhaps it's not lack of interest, then. \:\)

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#943553 - 11/17/08 06:35 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keyboardklutz Offline
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No, there just isn't much imagination out there. Blame the school system.
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#943554 - 11/17/08 06:48 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Danny Niklas Offline
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Loc: Switzerland
I think Gary said what he needed to say. The lack of a only-teachers forum was partially blamed. From there the discussion followed its natural course and exhausted itself.

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#943555 - 11/17/08 07:23 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keystring Online   content
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 Quote:
From there the discussion followed its natural course and exhausted itself.
Was that its natural course, or did it get directed there by choices made? Can it redirect? Is it done?

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#943556 - 11/17/08 07:30 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
rocket88 Offline
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Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3160
 Quote:
Originally posted by keystring:
 Quote:
From there the discussion followed its natural course and exhausted itself.
Was that its natural course, or did it get directed there by choices made? Can it redirect? Is it done? [/b]
Given the meandering "focus" of this thread, lets have a discussion about whether or not it followed its natural course, can it redirect, etc, etc!! :p
(just joking....no offense Keystring!)
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#943557 - 11/17/08 07:35 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keystring Online   content
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Well, you can't say I didn't try. :p

Love your sig, btw.

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#943558 - 11/17/08 03:28 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5929
Loc: Down Under
 Quote:
Originally posted by lotuscrystal:
With all due respect, being approx. 16 hours difference to most of you, due to time zones, it's quite often hard to be 'present' when ideas are taking off...when I log on...so many threads have gone off-course from their thread title, that I'm overwhelmed as to what to respond to! lol \:\) Don't know about you, but when I log on, their are usually only about 7 logged in members.

Anyone else suffer this 'creative exchange' dilemma? \:\) [/b]
Oh yes \:D
Everything has happened overnight, from my perspective. I fall into bed about 10.30 my time, and all you lot get going ("good, she's gone, now we can talk"). When I log on in the morning I'm mostly just reading to catch up on what's been said, and the place is deadly quiet most of the day. So unless I spend far more time here than I really should, I'm often amazed at where things have gone while I slept...
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#943559 - 11/17/08 04:05 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keyboardklutz Offline
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Presumably you guys are out of bed sometime before me? Though I am up, drinking coffee and reading the latest posts by 6am!
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#943560 - 11/17/08 04:22 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Gary D. Offline
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Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4801
Loc: South Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by lotuscrystal:
With all due respect, being approx. 16 hours difference to most of you, due to time zones, it's quite often hard to be 'present' when ideas are taking off...when I log on...so many threads have gone off-course from their thread title, that I'm overwhelmed as to what to respond to! lol \:\)
I'm aware of this time distance between here an "Oz", because I chat with a friend in Australia. I'm a late night person, so people in the US start to go to bed about the time I just get started. When I type now (afternoon), it is between students, short breaks. I am often wide awake and in a talking mood at 3 AM, but that's already midnight, even in California, so I'm also out of sync.
 Quote:

Don't know about you, but when I log on, their are usually only about 7 logged in members.

Anyone else suffer this 'creative exchange' dilemma? \:\)
If you are talking about this forum (teacher's), I think so. I should check how many people are online. I never did that before. \:\)
_________________________
Piano Teacher

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#943561 - 11/17/08 04:24 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
currawong Offline
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Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5929
Loc: Down Under
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Presumably you guys are out of bed sometime before me? Though I am up, drinking coffee and reading the latest posts by 6am! [/b]
I often am, too \:\) , on weekdays, anyway. (It's 8.20am here now)
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#943562 - 11/17/08 05:45 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keyboardklutz Offline
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It's 10:44pm here. Is this a creative exchange?
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#943563 - 11/17/08 05:49 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
John v.d.Brook Online   content
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Registered: 03/18/06
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Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Are we still discussing "creative ideas?" \:D

Actually, the topic is: What happened creative exchange of ideas here? [/b]

I guess the ideas don't need to be creative, just how we exchange them! \:D \:D
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
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#943564 - 11/17/08 06:14 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4801
Loc: South Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by John v.d.Brook:
Are we still discussing "creative ideas?" \:D
I don't think so!
 Quote:

Actually, the topic is: What happened creative exchange of ideas here? [/b]
And much to my embarrassment, since I posted it without some words, then forgot to spellcheck. That's why people will think I went back to edit my ideas, when actually was all about typos. \:\)

It was supposed to be "What happened to a[/b] creative exchange of ideas here?"

 Quote:

I guess the ideas don't need to be creative, just how we exchange them! \:D \:D
The creativity I was hoping for is about exchanging (possibly) new ideas about how we teach the things we all have to teach.

For instance, you mentioned teaching pedal from the start. I also teach pedal very early.

I'd love to discuss this and pedaling techniques we teach. Are you game for a topic about that? \:\)
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#943565 - 11/17/08 06:14 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
How about, hey I'm off to bed, see ya in the morning.
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
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#943566 - 11/17/08 08:14 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5929
Loc: Down Under
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gary D.:
For instance, you mentioned teaching pedal from the start. I also teach pedal very early.

I'd love to discuss this and pedaling techniques we teach. Are you game for a topic about that? \:\) [/b]
Speaking for me, yes \:\) .

In amongst all the other stuff on this thread (some of which was fun!) I think the point I got was - let's exchange creative ideas about how we teach, and be open to ideas from each other.

So start a new thread and let this one die a natural death. RIP \:\)
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#943567 - 11/22/08 09:40 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
quiescen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/04
Posts: 215
Loc: San Diego
Hello all,

I'm kind of new to this board so I'll keep my comments brief.

It seems to me that Gary D. wants to discuss a creative exchange of ideas. It also seems that Betty P. feels threatened by anything that strays from "traditional" piano pedagogy.

As someone who teaches adults how to improvise and compose, I think Gary D's perspective is fresh and one that is needed.

As I've said in the many articles I've written, I'm amazed at the pompous and righteous indignation that often comes from classical piano teachers. They feel threatened by anything that doesn't conform to the norm and think everyone should follow the exact same path.

Is it any wonder most don't take piano lessons?[/b]

---------------------------
Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com
_________________________
Edward Weiss
Quiescence Music
http://www.quiescencemusic.com

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#943568 - 11/22/08 09:49 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Nannerl Mozart Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
^ thankyou for your clarification. This thread seemed to bend in different directions. The subject was lost a few times.

I think traditional piano pedagogy has been kept through the years, it proves its effectiveness. At the same time society has moved on. There are been other mediums and devices to which we can communicate. People can learn different things through the internet now, self learning is becoming common.

We always associate classical piano teachers as traditional, I think although true this link needn't be made to the genre or type of music one plays. It's ultimately the type of teacher.

Its great to have discussion forums, the world of music education is constantly evolving due to technology and globalisation. Some teachers may not feel that they can accept certain approaches, however, I think it is good to have some knowledge and an awareness of how different areas are conducted.
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#943569 - 11/22/08 09:58 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Let me say quiescen,

You have a real nerve to post this on the piano teacher forum and at the same time insult some of us with your hypothetical question: "Is it any wonder most don't take piano lessons?"

I am not the least bit surprized to read what you have written. After all, you do have something that you are selling, don't you?

And, when you say I'm a traditional teacher threatened....you have no idea how creative and innovative I am, you are using me because I fit your agenda.

I'm happy to be called a traditional teacher, tried, true, established, and still going in my 38th year. So don't discount traditional teachers!

quiescen cheerfully says:
"Hello all,

I'm kind of new to this board so I'll keep my comments brief.

It seems to me that Gary D. wants to discuss a creative exchange of ideas. It also seems that Betty P. feels threatened by anything that strays from "traditional" piano pedagogy.

As someone who teaches adults how to improvise and compose, I think Gary D's perspective is fresh and one that is needed.

As I've said in the many articles I've written, I'm amazed at the pompous and righteous indignation that often comes from classical piano teachers. They feel threatened by anything that doesn't conform to the norm and think everyone should follow the exact same path.

Is it any wonder most don't take piano lessons?

---------------------------
Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com"

I object to selling on the forum. Betty

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#943570 - 11/22/08 10:20 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3160
 Quote:
Originally posted by quiescen:
Hello all,

I'm kind of new to this board so I'll keep my comments brief.

It seems to me that Gary D. wants to discuss a creative exchange of ideas. It also seems that Betty P. feels threatened by anything that strays from "traditional" piano pedagogy.

As someone who teaches adults how to improvise and compose, I think Gary D's perspective is fresh and one that is needed.

As I've said in the many articles I've written, I'm amazed at the pompous and righteous indignation that often comes from classical piano teachers. They feel threatened by anything that doesn't conform to the norm and think everyone should follow the exact same path.

Is it any wonder most don't take piano lessons?[/b]

---------------------------
Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com [/b]
SPAM ALERT
_________________________
Music teacher and piano player.

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#943571 - 11/22/08 10:25 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
quiescen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/04
Posts: 215
Loc: San Diego
Hi Betty,

As far as selling something goes, I'm following the PW guidelines by including the promo in the sig file. Don't like it? Too bad. Take it up with Frank.

And by the way, a lot of people make their living by teaching piano. I make mine on the internet.

We're all selling something aren't we. You're selling an outdated pedantic approach to playing piano. You might want to include that in your sig file along with your lovely picture.

Are you ready for this ... here it comes again.[/b]

--------------------------------
Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com
_________________________
Edward Weiss
Quiescence Music
http://www.quiescencemusic.com

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#943572 - 11/22/08 10:28 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
quiescen,

You've just proved to me that I should ignore you because you are quite the intimidator. We have little in common.

Congratulations!

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#943573 - 11/22/08 10:34 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
quiescen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/04
Posts: 215
Loc: San Diego
 Quote:
Originally posted by rocket88:
SPAM ALERT [/b]
Rocket 88, where's the spam? Unless it's in a can sitting your kitchen shelf, there's none in my post. Check the forum guidelines. We're allowed to include promos in the sig file.

So sorry you feel threatened that the world revolves around sales. Maybe you should move to Antarctica. You may like it there.
_________________________
Edward Weiss
Quiescence Music
http://www.quiescencemusic.com

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#943574 - 11/22/08 10:50 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Nannerl Mozart Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
I really don't want to get involved but really these conflicts do seem personal. Unless I state a fact that was said by another individual I feel that it is not nice to bully or pick on anyone.

It's quite obvious to me that there has been some confliction and I think, if you must please personal message each other.

I don't mean to sound patronizing or preachy, being a 16 year makes me feel strange and awkard giving my opinion to adults.
_________________________
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#943575 - 11/22/08 10:51 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3160
When someone has a product to sell, and comes on a forum and bashes people who sell an different "product", that is actually worse than Spam.

To say that I should move to Antarctica, after you bashed Betty and other traditional teachers, along with the proven traditional teachinng method, means that you are not only worse than a spammer,, but a Troll.

Wise up, huckster....go to popup hell and sell your product on its merits, not by bashing the competition.
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Music teacher and piano player.

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#943576 - 11/22/08 10:54 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11674
Loc: Canada
May I suggest that the abuse button be hit, rather than ongoing arguments in a ** discussion ** forum? The topic is "What happened to creative exchange of ideas here?" Isn't it almost Thanksgiving where you guys are?

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#943577 - 11/22/08 10:56 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
quiescen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/04
Posts: 215
Loc: San Diego
Sorry Rocket but I didn't bash Betty. I responded to an unfriendly response from her. And you identified what I posted as spam which is harrasment in itself.

But I'll take the advice you have in your sig file and stop arguing with you.
_________________________
Edward Weiss
Quiescence Music
http://www.quiescencemusic.com

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#943578 - 11/22/08 11:01 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3160
Yes, I will obey my byline
_________________________
Music teacher and piano player.

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#943579 - 11/22/08 11:06 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
quiescen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/04
Posts: 215
Loc: San Diego
 Quote:
Originally posted by rocket88:
When someone has a product to sell, and comes on a forum and bashes people who sell an different "product", that is actually worse than Spam.

To say that I should move to Antarctica, after you bashed Betty and other traditional teachers, along with the proven traditional teachinng method, means that you are not only worse than a spammer,, but a Troll.

Wise up, huckster....go to popup hell and sell your product on its merits, not by bashing the competition. [/b]
Interesting response. I think Betty's old enough to defend herself and from what I've read so far, she's quite capable. As far as being a troll, I've done nothing to incite argument ... only innocently responded to comments made by quality people like yourself.

Hucksters try and hide what they sell. I'm not hiding. Speaking of which, where's your picture?
_________________________
Edward Weiss
Quiescence Music
http://www.quiescencemusic.com

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#943580 - 11/22/08 11:45 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3450
Loc: Western Canada
Good grief! Where is the moderator when you need him?!

Ken! If you are up there, this is geting out of hand down here! \:D
_________________________
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Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


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#943581 - 11/23/08 12:05 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17777
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
I don't think Ed's post was out of line. He raised a question worthy of debate and one that was at least moderately relevant to the thread (and certainly more relevant than many of the other posts here!). He merely raised the possibility that there is a degree of resistance to new teaching techniques and approaches among classically trained teachers, and that this resistance to change might be counterproductive. Betty took it personally and responded in a defensive huff, as is her wont, and things went downhill from there. ;\)

As for Ed's business, I did not view his post as being any kind of spam or selling at all. He lists his website in his signature line, well within the forum rules, and no different than many of the teachers here... including Betty.

But nobody thus far has actually responded in a substantive manner to Ed's question, which is not a little ironic in a thread that is titled "what happened to a creative exchange of ideas?" \:\(

FWIW, I agree with you, Ed. AB forum has many members who have not found what they have wanted in a traditional, classically oriented curriculum.
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Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#943582 - 11/23/08 12:46 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4801
Loc: South Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by quiescen:
As I've said in the many articles I've written, I'm amazed at the pompous and righteous indignation that often comes from classical piano teachers. They feel threatened by anything that doesn't conform to the norm and think everyone should follow the exact same path.
I've never advocated that everyone follow the same path. And yes, I would like to see an exchange of creative ideas.

Let me explain exactly what I see and hear, looking at your "Coral Reef".

You are calling A E A and F C F, in the LH, as Am and F chords. When are you going to tell your students that you are playing open fifths, and that this interval, by itself is ambiguous?

You talk about the "aeolian mode".

In fact, you are moving back and forth between aeolian and lydian.

The names are not important to me, at this point, but I would say that the LH is playing open 5ths, with the bass note doubled in the octave, or doubled by the thumb.

Now, you are cheating, and there is nothing wrong with that, but you are putting your RH on an unusual five-finger position, B C D E F. This gives you a "6th" for free, but you keep getting the A, part of the melody you are improvising, by using the thumb of the LH to also double for the melody.

Then, when the LH moves to the F open 5th, you move the RH to a G position, using G A B C.

I am NOT criticizing what you are doing because it is too easy, or too simple. I am saying that what people will do is this: they will mimic that chord positions and hand positions you are teaching.

This is fine for the beginning. Everyone has to start somewhere. But are you saying that you are opposed to reading? Do you want people to learn this INSTEAD of reading?

I'm absolutely in support of improvisation. What bothers me is that many people tell people, "Don't bother learning to read music. You don't need it."

In my experience ever the finest players who ONLY play by ear regret not being able to read. Granted, there are some famous musicians who never learned to read. Two of them were Steven Allen and Dave Brubeck. But I don't think this was an advantage for either. They were just so talented, they worked around it.
 Quote:

As for this:
Is it any wonder most don't take piano lessons?[/b]
I'm not sure where you are heading with this statement.
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#943583 - 11/23/08 01:40 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
I don't see why quiescen can't have his homepage as his sig. I like the site - plenty of money has been invested and it is very helpful. His technique is poor though - too much tension, and then having to stare at his crotch! Well...maybe I'm just the sensitive type. No need to come on so strong quiescen, remember you're in a heath food shop.
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#943584 - 11/23/08 02:19 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
quiescen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/04
Posts: 215
Loc: San Diego
Hi Monica and thanks for your post. It's very interesting to me how some respond to what I've posted.Very interesting.[/b]

Keyboardklutz ... as far as technique goes, it's secondary to expression in my book and there's really no need to stare at my crotch.

Gary D ... brilliant analysis of Coral Reef.

Look, I've been a member of this board since 2004 - longer tham most of the people who have posted on this thread. I won't be bullied because my opinion is different than yours. Nor will I back away from those who insult me and then hide behind somme anonymous icon.

I'm a teacher just like you and I have opinions just like you. I realize that you may not like that. That's fine. Just don't expect me to back down from insults and innuendo. Not now. Not ever.

Oh, and here's a warning for the lighthearted ... here comes my signature line:

----------------------------------
Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com
_________________________
Edward Weiss
Quiescence Music
http://www.quiescencemusic.com

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#943585 - 11/23/08 02:56 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by quiescen:

Keyboardklutz ... as far as technique goes, it's secondary to expression in my book and there's really no need to stare at my crotch.
[/b]
No, it's not and I can't help it!

It's snowing!
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
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#943586 - 11/23/08 04:07 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
lotuscrystal Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 304
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Why is it I'm always asleep when the you know what goes down?!..bloody time zones \:\) \:\)

Personally, I am aware that Quiescen spends more time in the other forums, than on this board..and has taken a flogging or two on threads condemning the new-age piano style, from many 'traditionalists'. So, I find it not surprising that he would appear on this thread (albeit perhaps a little abrupt), 'airing' his views with regard to those who advocate 'tradition' to the exclusion of other forms/methods/styles. If you venture into some of those threads where the new-age style is defamed as music blasphemy, and criticised to no end by some classicists, it's a little disheartening too. It seems the tension between traditional classicists and new-age musicians is very prevalent.

Perhaps this issue needs a thread of it's own in the 'Piano Teacher's Forum', as I'm not entirely sure it fits in with Gary's thread title, but perhaps Gary might confirm this either way.

As for having his website as his sig...this is common place on internet forums globally. It's how people promote without spamming. It's not spam, unless you start a thread about what you're selling in an unrelated forum or promote yourself endlessly in your posts. I haven't witnessed this on the 'Piano Teacher's Forum'.

And from what I have witnessed of his site, alot I've seen has been free. I've been downloading music free from his site for months for my beginner students (child, teenage, & adult) as a change from their classical/jazz repertoire, and they really like it.

Peace \:\)

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#943587 - 11/23/08 08:43 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Ken Knapp Offline



Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 2234
Loc: Pennsylvania
Wow, when I woke this morning my mail was full of moderator reports.

Let's all have a Coke and a smile.. \:\)

This track of the discussion certainly got derailed - especially considering that this is the forum where everyone treats everyone else respectfully (for the most part).

quiescen, I think the reception would be better except for a couple of things. First, discussion on your methods would be better received without naming names and holding up forum members as bad examples. I don't think you intended for your words to sound that way, but that's the way they sound.

Secondly, this forum has seen its share of games played in the past by people representing various internet based piano teaching systems. We've seen many sock puppets come here pretending to be students who sing priases of some web based course (Soft Mozart comes to mind) only to find out that this person is the owner of the company trying to drum up business. These people would bombard the forum. It got old really fast.

You are correct, websites are allowed and encouraged in sig lines. Actually, they are encouraged for professionals - not for advertising but to show a person's industry affiliation. As an example, if I always tell others that Yamaha is the best piano and my sig line discloses that I sell Yamahas, then everyone will know that I might have a reason for the opinions I express.

All in all, you will find this forum to be full of openminded people who do all they can for their students and constantly look for ways in which they can improve their teaching skills - provided that the perception is not that you have come to sell your wares, attack their methods, or attack respected forum members.

Ken
_________________________
Ken

Piano Organ Depot
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#943588 - 11/23/08 09:28 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
I'm not a teacher, just an amateur pianist with a dilettantish (but increasingly serious) personal interest in pedagogy.

Quiescen referred to "'traditional' piano pedagogy" and resistance by classical teachers to "anything that doesn't conform to the norm"; he charges them with believing that "everyone should follow the exact same path" and having "an outdated pedantic approach to playing piano."

Monica confirmed the viewpoint that there's "a degree of resistance to new teaching techniques and approaches among classically trained teachers."

But even if teaching classical piano rather than other genres of music is the norm (which, I think, is manifestly true), there's no standard method or approach for doing so—no norm to which everything should conform, no "exact same path" for all to follow, no single "outdated pedantic approach."

"Resistance to new teaching techniques and approaches among classically trained teachers," too, implies that there is a homogeneity and uniformity in the existing methods and approaches.

Has there ever been a consensus among teachers regarding classical piano pedagogy? Most students who've taken lessons from several teachers probably wouldn't think so! Any pianist who's read what the great pedagogues of the past have to say wouldn't think so, either. The approaches and methods are various, and sometimes they are conflicting and contradictory.

Maybe I'm restating the obvious, but, on the other hand, teachers and students of other genres of piano might be misperceiving a status quo in the teaching world of classical piano that just doesn't exist.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#943589 - 11/23/08 04:12 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17777
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Excellent points, sotto voce. You are right that it is being too hasty to brush all classical teachers with the same brushstrokes. I've read enough posts from many of the teachers I admire here on this forum who make it clear that they try to incorporate a wide variety of approaches in their teaching, including jazz, improvising, playing by ear, and music from other genres, should the student be more interested in those skills.

I think I was reacting to the threads and posts that prompted the "creative exchange" thread to begin with, and I should acknowledge that the rigidity I referred is not representative of all the teachers posting here. \:\)
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#943590 - 11/23/08 05:30 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
What happened to the creative exchange of ideas?

The "c" in creative was moved to become "reactive" exchange of ideas.

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#943591 - 11/23/08 08:08 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Ken Knapp Offline



Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 2234
Loc: Pennsylvania
Now Betty, that was creative! \:\)

Monica, you're right - and as always a voice of good sense. \:\)

Ken
_________________________
Ken

Piano Organ Depot
http://www.pianoorgandepot.com
Hammond Organ Technician
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#943592 - 11/23/08 09:37 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Thank you, Ken!

It was a nice surprize for me.

I was just talking to someone about the world evolve - that we are on a path in music daily and that if we stay on the path and follow faithfully we will arrive at the destination.
She shared with me a Rilke quote about this that was so poetic and promising.

Maybe someone will post it here. Or, I could go find it. I kind of think it will surface here if it's meant to be said. Let's see!

So, my instant thought created the entry of the word revolve, and that's what we do, over and over, when we're off the path, even slightly, lost our belief in our musical selves, or our path in music choices and our efforts slack and the hope and vision dims.

Why revolve when it's guaranteed you can evolve. Be a believer!

Word plays are engaging me today!

Betty

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#943593 - 11/24/08 03:09 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4801
Loc: South Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by lotuscrystal:
If you venture into some of those threads where the new-age style is defamed as music blasphemy, and criticised to no end by some classicists, it's a little disheartening too. It seems the tension between traditional classicists and new-age musicians is very prevalent.
True.
 Quote:

Perhaps this issue needs a thread of it's own in the 'Piano Teacher's Forum', as I'm not entirely sure it fits in with Gary's thread title, but perhaps Gary might confirm this either way.
I took the time to analyze one of his demos. I differ from hisw way of teaching in that I would present the principle ideas he is showing in notation. I believe reading is terribly important and want it to start as soon as possible.

However, having said that, he used A--E--A and F--C--F in the left hand, with basically the "white key set" for the RH, a couple hand positions.

Since Fuer Elise also uses A--E--A, but with C--G--C, it's certainly not a bad idea.

One of his LH patterns uses things like: C--G--D--E--D, tracing a 9th, sort of a C add 2 idea, fairly common in many pop ballades, not just new age. Beethoven uses G--G--B and E--E--G#.

In this world where so many people quit before reaching any kind of mastery of the instrument, I am open to ANY idea that might keep people going, so long as it builds towards something that I can use and that they can use.

Also, reading from the beginning works for me as a teacher because I have spent DECADES watching why "Johnny Can't Read Music", which is equally true for "Jane". The fact that I can't get results using rote patterns or showing people, visually, what works for me, just points at my approach and what works for me.

Teaching reading is easier. But I also show patterns and chords and encourage much the same kind of improvisation and creativity. I even underscore this with some of my own music, even ASKING students to take what I give them as a starting place and to "mess with it".

So I'm personally open to any ideas that may possible reach "the next student". \:\)
_________________________
Piano Teacher

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#943594 - 11/24/08 04:01 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
lotuscrystal Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 304
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
I agree Gary...I'm a big believer in reading music...from day one of a student's first lesson. There is something rather frustrating about getting a 'new' student, who's had lessons for four years with another 'teacher' who can't read a note of music...

The music I've downloaded from Quiescn's site have been scored pieces for the beginner \:\)

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#943595 - 11/24/08 03:07 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4801
Loc: South Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by lotuscrystal:
I agree Gary...I'm a big believer in reading music...from day one of a student's first lesson. There is something rather frustrating about getting a 'new' student, who's had lessons for four years with another 'teacher' who can't read a note of music...
Yes. The most frequent thing I hear is:

"I can't read the LH notes."

The assumption is that it is a hand problem, when in fact left-handers are just as "reading-crippled". It's set up in the first year of teaching. After than not reading is a habit, and it's very difficult to correct.
 Quote:

The music I've downloaded from Quiescn's site have been scored pieces for the beginner \:\)
Ah, that answers many questions! \:\)
_________________________
Piano Teacher

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#943596 - 11/24/08 04:32 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gary D.:
 Quote:
Originally posted by lotuscrystal:
I agree Gary...I'm a big believer in reading music...from day one of a student's first lesson. There is something rather frustrating about getting a 'new' student, who's had lessons for four years with another 'teacher' who can't read a note of music...
Yes. The most frequent thing I hear is:

"I can't read the LH notes."

The assumption is that it is a hand problem, when in fact left-handers are just as "reading-crippled"[/b]
Indeed. The assumption is that we are less able to control the left hand but as you said, left-handed have the same problems with the bass cleff. The reason is indeed the flaw of teaching the treble cleff for months, and then introducing the bass cleff as something "alien" to what has been taught since then, rather than introducing the whole grand cleff as the perfect rapresentation of the keyboard in its whole.
That's why I usually favour holistic approaches.
Not only because sometimes reducing a whole into its smallest parts, destroy the interaction between the parts themselves, but because if you focus on one piece of the whole with the intent of adding another piece later, it will be way harder and more awkward than learning the whole from the benning.

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