Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum What happened creative exchange of ideas here?

Wow, what a defensive blast! Who is the math teacher, I wonder? The Psychology teacher is obvious.

Nobody is picking on you, Betty. This is not about you. Many of us simply disagree with your reasoning and your exclusionist viewpoint.

By my count, the number of teachers actively posting who would rather exclude non-teachers (however that is defined) seems to be a tiny minority. The rest think that such an exclusion would impoverish the forum itself and/or be impossible to implement as a practical matter.

Whether or not you are a fine teacher is immaterial. Insights can come from all quarters, and fine teachers usually have the intellectual curiosity to appreciate that.

Most threads here are NOT about the class of problems that involves the truly fine points of teaching the piano that ONLY a piano teacher would care about or have the requisite expertise to discuss. When such threads appear, guess who dominates the discussion? The teachers, of course. The rest of us simply ignore the thread entirely because it either holds no interest for us or we realize we have little or nothing to offer.

Now, if you are talking about the virtues or vices of having a parent in the room during lessons, a parent perspective might very well inform the discussion. I frankly don't understand why that is so difficult to appreciate.

This is not a private clubhouse on whose door you can tack a "parents stay out" sign. And as many teacher posters have argued, why would you want to?

Betty, what part of Frank's post did you not understand?

I hear your message that you do not want me, and other non-teachers, to post on this forum any more. You are one of the very few people on this forum, if not the only person, expressing that opinion. The vast majority of others voicing an opinion, including the *only* person whose opinion on this issue counts, and that is Frank Baxter, the founder of this forum, welcomes the contributions of non-teachers.

I'm sorry, Betty, but you don't get to decide who posts here or not. It's as simple as that.

[oops. Freudian slip edited out. ]

Where is that "waving-your-hand-in-the-air" icon when you need it

Also freshman composition, folkdancing, skiing, management and organizational behavior, introduction to business, Sunday school, et al. Some of which have physical components All of which have critical thinking components. All of which have individual learning style components. And other components which, to me, are applicable to learning/teaching/playing piano.

I agree. I don't get in on the threads about fingering for scales, unless we get to the point where we point out that some fingering in a piece, even for scale-like passages, depends on what comes before and after the passage, sort of like running gates in a ski race

As far as I can tell, the subjects I have taught have components which are applicable to learning to play piano. IMHO, learning basic math for adults is every bit as much a life skill requiring commitment, organization, maturity, etc, as learning to play piano. I could be wrong, of course - I have been more than once in my life.

So, most of my comments in this forum are on things that I might have experience teaching in freshman composition, or lapses in logic, or a statement that not everyone learns the same way - often with myself as counterexample, or a statement of how I learned a particular skill. Others seem to be able to ignore my comments quite well if they don't seem relevant to them

And no, I don't teach piano. I do, however, pass on to other piano players ways that I approach playing for dancing, or riffs I use in the left hand for accompaniment, or anything else they might learn by looking over my shoulder. And I learn a lot from other piano players the same way. Music is a community event for me.

Cathy

I was wondering the same thing . Thanks for clearing that up, jotur.

But this seemed directed at me (or do I flatter myself?):
And, another source of amazement to me, is, people who play piano but do not teach either at all, or not much, very as verbal in the teaching forum as they are.

Well, Betty, if this is referring to me I'm sorry that you don't appreciate my contributions. But at least I've been a source of amazement . I wonder how many hours you need to teach per week to be a Real Teacher? Or for how many years? I know you've been teaching for 38 years. I may not have a large number of piano students at the moment, but I've actually been teaching piano pretty well continuously for 41 years. I haven't mentioned it before because, frankly, I didn't think it was necessarily all that relevant.

Let's get back to "creative exchange of ideas" and not stress so much about who is qualified to join in the exchange.

^ Could not agree more.

As I've said before, I don't typically post much because I don't have much free time (yes, too busy teaching piano!). I often feel guilty for just reading and not contributing more, but by the time I get here, others have already said whatever I might have.

Here, now, though, I must speak out. I am amazed at the recent uproar over who might be welcome (allowed?) to post. I feel this forum would be greatly diminished without the contributions of everyone. I have learned so much from students, parents, and non-teaching pianists (self-taught and otherwise). I think the input of people with experiences in other fields is invaluable, and I would greatly miss it if it went away. Please stay and contribute (and ask questions!) and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Darn. I missed the Betty Bloop.

I think that Betty is correct in saying that teaching piano correctly is a unique body/mind/endeavor, unlike anything else. It also includes ancillary teaching such as time management skills, keeping motivated skills, goal-setting, facing your insecurities, etc.

I have posted before that the only thing I can think of that is similar to teaching piano is teaching golf, in that a successful golf learning experince involves very similar body/mind control, and the ancillary skills touched on above. (perhaps being a surgeon is also very similar).

Therefore, having a gift of teaching, and knowing a bit of piano, does not make a qualified piano teacher.

I have been told many many times that I am a very good teacher...but I would never even think of taking what essentially are amateur golf skills and trying to teach golf, although I know I could bluff my way through for a while simply by using my teaching skills.

But I would misteach people, and/or leave out some small but important ingredient.

That is why, when I have a piano teaching question/problem, I want to hear from a well-qualified piano teacher. Sure, the opinions of others such as students and parents is potentially helpful, but I want to hear first and foremost from the experts.

Its like having a legal problem/question, and asking for advice from someone who's hobby is reading about law, or asking the parent of someone who reads about law, rather than asking a real practicing lawyer.

As for the forum, it should be left as is. The input from students and parents can be helpful and valuable, and often is very insightful, but I want to hear first from the working teachers.

And, trying to police the forum to exclude non-teachers is a big can of worms best left shut.

Just for the record.

I’m an adult student. A new and probably very poor self taught one.

I have never posted on this forum.

I don’t know anything really about piano teaching.

I am not an academic.

But

I feel very sorry for a minority of this forum who want to potentially lose insight, variation of viewpoint on subjects under discussion etc, etc. On the basis that another person doesn’t quite fit a predefined standard.

I don’t teach, I professionally tend to see humanity at it worse and have been a student of that behaviour for the last 25 years. Strangely the biggest lesson I ever learnt was not imparted by a peer, a theorist in my field or a psychologist.

It was “taught” to me by a previously unknown 11 year old girl. What she taught me I’ve valued in my professional and private life more than any other single insight over the last 10 years.

But hey, I could have not listened or shut the door in her face. She would not have been any the poorer for it.

I most certainly would have, and in total ignorance I wouldn’t have realised it.

Now, back off to the beginner’s forum.

Good sense rocket.

I seem to have missed the bit where you say "and what she taught me was..."

I certainly hope none of my posts come across as being "know it all" or trying to tell piano teachers how to teach.

I have said before that I did not have the greatest experience as a child piano student, and I hope that others might learn from what I went thru (parents, that it's important for a child to have good quality teaching and a good quality instrument; teachers, that not everyone is as good as you are and don't make assumptions about what your transfer student knows, even if they play relatively well).

Also, I am aware that someone who has been successful as a piano student, a piano performance or pedagogy major, and a piano teacher (which is, I am assuming, the path many of the teachers here took), might get some insight from someone from a very rural area who had poor instruction at first, was a music ed major, and is now a returning adult amateur and piano student. To be...I guess...a "friendly native guide" for teachers who are interested, into the world of rural students, or failed students, or adult students...

When, for instance, I posted on the 'befriending students' thread, it was to share my experience, which seems to differ greatly from the majority of teachers.

Also, in the interests of full disclosure, it is incredibly frustrating to hear people make pronouncements that "adult students are ___" "adults always ___" "adults never want ___" when these pronouncements are generally negative and, in my experience, pretty inaccurate. I'm not saying the teachers' own experiences are invalid, that would be a ridiculous thing to assert. I just want people who are thinking about teaching adults not to get turned off before they start.

I think that is a reasonable statement.
I don't think anyone said it does.
I want to hear from people who can give me answers. There are questions that can only be answered by other teachers. However, others are answered better by students.

It depends on the question…

Just for the record, Gary, you quoted me, not Blackbird.

Gary, I am not trying to pick a fight, but am interested in what questions about teaching are better answered by students rather than teachers. Could you give some examples?

I can:

- How do you find the time and structure to practice with focus and concentration at the beginning or end of busy work day with other family responsibilities?

- How are lessons every two weeks instead of every week better for some adult students?

- How can you best communicate to your teacher what you want/need to learn in a given lesson and keep the dialog positive and constructive versus judgmental and fault finding?

- How can you tailor your interview with a new teacher to get a fair evaluation of their abilities and the potential match between you two?

- How can you work out ways to learn the "invisible" and that which "only can be felt or experienced" from a teacher relationship which is principally verbal or auditive?

- In your personal experience, what parts of learning the piano are best left unquestioned in a "grasshopper" Zen master relationship style and on what aspects can a student take more of the lead?

etc.

You're overcomplicating and overnanalyzing the whole issue. Arguments stand by their own merits not by the credentials or labels or those who promote them. Anyone might have a valid argument about teaching or teaching methods in spite of who he/she is, and teachers can often learn from non-teachers. I can't think of anything more irrational than judging what makes sense and what doesn't, by the identity of the writer. You never know where insight might come from the next time, you can only be confident that you'll recognize it when you see it.

Not true. If this were true no one would have believed the ridiculous and vacuous presentation which Colin Powell gave to the security council and hundreds of thousands of innocent people would still be alive. But, because of his position, his "arguments" were believed.

It is irrational to believe that we can separate rationality from more emotional, subjective and personal factors. The identity of the person or institute making an argument is an implicit part of evaluating the argument in many or most settings. Someone's reputation is shorthand enabling our ability to make integrative and timely judgments. Human beings are not merely symbolic logic executing automatons.

It's a common habit in our society, but that doesn't make it less irrational. I'm not an automaton, and actually I don't believe in inhibiting spontaneity. And yet it is natural for me to judge a person for his/her true merits and not irrelevant factors related to social stereotypes, limiting labels, fictional status quo and other bad ways to lump people together and create fake categories.

To judge the identity of the writer/speker instead of his argument might lead to believe him arbitrarily even when you shouldn't, or not believe him arbitrarily even when you should.
A fallacious argument doesn't become less fallacious when you find out its promoter is a professional and viceversa a valid argument doesn't become less valid when you find out its promoter is an amateur. At least, this is how it should work.