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Did I cross "the line"

Measurement criteria

If the child's other parent thinks you've crossed the line, you have.

If you think a parent who pushed a child in soccer or dance like you push a child in music is crazy, you need to examine your motives.

If the otherwise cooperative child starts to act out in several areas, back off big time.

Otherwise, enjoy! It will be over soon enough. The child will grow up and do it on his/her own or, well, not.

Looking back at my own childhood, I think it's important to do some things "on your own" as a child.......nowadays the parents are involved in just about everything their children are doing. They volunteer in the classroom, the lunchroom, on field trips and as coaches or other volunteers at their children's sports. I think it's important to give our kids some room, to not always be the mom/dad who is supervising everything. I would have absolutely hated it if my mom/dad would have participated in everything I was doing.
piano dad, I hope you don't take this wrong, but why do you think you have to sit in during the lessons? Do you not trust the teacher? or your child? I think children need some room to grow and they have the right to make some of their own experiences and memories, those their parents don't necessarily have to share. You're around while your children practice at home and you could give your pointers then...

I don't want to come across as a mom who does not care either ;-)) I volunteer in our school twice a week(but not my kid's classrooms...), my husband sits on our school board and I have high expectations academically and otherwise in my children, I also make sure they are fluent in German, which is my language, so over all I think I'm a fairly strict mom.
Sometimes I just wonder if parents nowadays don't overdo it with their "involvement"........does this generation of parents have a problem to "let go", do they see their children as their ambitious "product" or are they just overprotective?
Like I said, I really don't want to step on anyones toes, I just don't understand this new(?) philosophy of "sitting in during lessons"

Thanks for your interesting post, Piano*Dad. I like your ideas on acceleration and "why not?" A piano teacher told me recently of a situation similar to yours--a parent who sits in on lessons and re-teaches all week--and the child is making phenomenal progress. The child isn't frustrated, and the parent enjoys the time. I guess this could be called "helicopter parenting," but I think if it works, it's just effective parenting. I guess we're always tempted to describe people who are more involved than we are negatively, while people who are less involved don't have their priorities straight. I think that's where reasonable people have to examine their own egos, and that's a difficult thing to do.

A tennis coach tried to talk us into a full-fledged academy "go pro" timeline for one of our boys a couple of years ago. I must admit it was flattering (though did it really say anything about me? No.) that she thought he had such potential, so we were tempted to put a ton of resources in that direction. After a month of thought, I decided that I needed to look at the long view. What do I want for my kids when they're 25? A good education, a strong set of morals, a solid sense of family, a work ethic, a wide range of interests, a sense of fun. Would working toward a professional tennis career--even if he made it--really be the way to achieve that? We decided no. The coach couldn't believe it and told us how many parents would love to have a kid with that kind of potential, how we weren't letting him be all he could be, and so forth. Maybe we made a mistake, but I felt that ego was the only thing making me want to go in the full-tennis direction. I just couldn't take our limited resources of time and money and pour them into that, no matter how big the financial and glory payoff might be. I'll always wonder, though.

Nancy

I think I look upon music as a language that I wanted my children to learn to be able to express themselves and communicate with other people. I really hope their musical skills will be better than my English !

When I entered the PianoForum in august I did not expect it to be a place where I could get advice on raising my children. I am so grateful for all the experience and considerations that you all generously share. I still don't know how to raise my children, but I feel less alone with my way of thinking

Thankyou !

Ragnhild

Very interesting and thought provoking (and probably be soul searching as well).

In some ways I find my reasons to be almost too personal to put into words. In other ways it's so easy to articulate (as many have already done).
There is a richness and depth to life- and an enjoyment (fun and relaxing), as well as building blocks of great character all rolled up into one big package with learning piano (speaking on behalf of my childhood as well as in reference to parenting my child).

As far as ego- it never entered my mind until- nearly overnight my daughter was impressing people (and NOT on purpose). Since then I have had to look in the mirror and think about deeper issues- like the fact that whether she plays well (and she is extraordinary), or not- is not the real point.

She plays a song about once a month in church and a harder piece once a month for her teacher's workshop- in front of the other students and their families. The accolades increase every month.

Personally I don't want her "worth" to ever depend or be defined by her ability to play so well. I hope that's not inevitable. Yet, I also know the feeling of being really good on an instrument, playing well, impressing people...and later not being as good as the "cream of the crop I was surrounded by". I'm glad my worth as a person was not wrapped up in how well I played (especially in light of so many playing far better than I).

For now, my daughter loves piano and her lessons, she's excelling, progressing and learning rapidly- and she LOVES music.

I was told that children can develop in ways between ages 6 and 10 that they cannot after that point. That may or may not be true but it definately lit a fire for me to be serious about her having a great teacher NOW so she has the best opportunity at this age.

As a sidenote, I too sit in on lessons, take notes if I have to and make sure the lesson is worked properly all week (meaning she follows her teacher's directions. It seems like a big load to me (usually in a week she's working in 9 of her 11 books plus sheet music that is up to 4 pages long). There's no sweat or crying from her- she's a hard little worker and seems gratified (inside) with each accomplishment. In fact she's a little odd, the more you give her the more excited she gets. She was told to work on 2 lines of a piece and also told if she felt like it she could work as much of the piece as she wanted. She did the whole thing. I certainly didn't push for that. Obviously working out of that many books- she works on 1/2 pages at times- and there are pieces she passes and others she just has to get down the keys/fingerings/timing and then the next week the same piece will be polished (phrasing, expression, dynamics).

It seems though that we are right around the corner from her being able to get the phrasing, expression and dynamics even faster- on her own. Progress is just so fast- I really can't help her anymore (other than reading the assignements to her).

Sorry for the rambling. Sinuses are acting up, can't sleep but I'm tired.

[EDIT ... I'm so sorry about the length of this. Is doesn't look that long when you're typing it in the little box! ]

I have 2 young children, aged 5 and almost 3. At some point I intended to encourage them to take up 1 instrument and 1 sport. I think both are important for many of the reasons previously mentioned on this thread.

I read on another thread that teachers find it very frustrating when a parent brings a child to lessons to 'try it out'. I also saw comments about making the child make a decision on an instrument and sticking to it. I don't understand the need for such rigidity. Surely encouraging your children to try a wide range of options in order to find their 'niche' can only enhance their musical education?

I know so many people who were forced to take piano lessons for 10 years and gave up as soon as they were old enough to defy their parents. What was the point of that? Just so that if they take the piano up again at 40 it will be easier? It seems like 10 years of frustration for a child who could perhaps have moved on to a different instrument, or even a different path altogether, and received much greater pleasure.

My 5 year old has expressed an interest in learning the piano but I expect it is because she sees me playing it and wants to either emulate me or please me. I was going to wait until she was a little older, however, a friend of my teacher has had experience teaching young children and would like to teach her. He is coming over next week to meet her and talk to the both of us. His style is to talk with her and set small exercises. If she picks these up quickly and he senses a real interest from her he will take her on. If not, he will advise me that perhaps she is not ready yet.

Once she has expressed an early interest, he then advised that I should insist upon practice every day, but just for a few minutes at her age, to instil discipline. He also prefers parents to sit in on the lessons, and any younger siblings too, if I intend to start them on piano at a later stage and they are at an age where they will not be a distraction. This is partly because he is male and she is a young child (and unfortunately in this day and age you have to think about that), but mostly because he believes that the myself and the younger children will benefit from absorbing the lessons in an indirect way.

I want my daughter to learn the piano for her musical education and because I think she will love it. She seems to 'get lost' in her own little world when she hears music or sees anyone playing an instrument. I have no intention of coaching her during the week, I will leave that to her teacher who is far more qualified than I. I also want her to feel her own sense of accomplishment. However, if a year or two down the track I felt that the lessons were making her miserable I would drop them in a heartbeat.

I'm sure all you teachers out there are aghast at that comment but I don't see what's wrong with her taking it back up again at a later time when she may be in a better emotional state. Even if that's years and years down the track. As it is constantly being mentioned on this forum ... it's never too late!

I am open to being swayed here as I will freely admit that I do not have the experience of many people in this forum who have raised their children and/or who have taught them.

P.S. Nancy, I don't envy you that decision. It must have been very difficult. It's true you may never know but on the flipside there is room for only a few at the top and it must be dreadful for children who know their family have given up everything and yet those children end up lacking the talent, or the heart, to make it.

A lot of interesting stuff since I went to bed!

DES: I need to be more complete. I don't sit in on lessons any more and I don't supervise 100% of his practice any more either. I did that more thoroughly when he was younger (8-11). He's 13 now. I agree about the importance of self-direction as part of growing up. On the other hand, I still DO work with him at home a lot, and I think he still benefits from this supervised practice. Even advanced students use supervised practice as a way to accelerate through any musical problems they face. I'm a decent pianist myself and I can still usually spot his problems in music, technique, and practice routine long before he does and thus before they have a chance to fester. This has nothing to do with not trusting the teacher. I view my relationship with her as a partnership. I AM one of my son's teachers, and I believe it is time well spent. My son still values it as well (I think ).

Oh, just thought of this .....he plays a mean French Horn, and I don't have anything to do with that! Well, I do nag him to get his practice done, but beyond that I haven't a clue what to do on a brass instrument. :p

Dorrie: I like your way of thinking on this! So far I haven't received a "back off" from my wife, but I'll be sure to retreat if I hear it. I'm also taking my cue from my son and his own wishes.


Mark: The local school administrators in my neck of the woods clearly agree with you about the virtues of musical training. They assert that band students (and track team members as well) learn self-discipline and organizational skills (time management) that serve them well in college and in life.

Nancy: what did your son or daughter think of the tennis option? I'm just curious as to whether he or she had a strong feeling about this or was sort of indifferent.

piano dad,

thanks for clearing this up for me :-)

This is an interesting thread with a lot of insights.

I long ago re-evaluated my own attitude to music and learning, and that was one reason why I came back to the piano.

Having thought more about what piano dad and others have saiod here, I think I will try to re-evaluate the situation with my son and music too. It is possible that because of my own adverse experiences as a child (exacerbated by less than inspiring teachers) I may have backed off a bit too much with my own son.

I have tried reasonabloy hard with violin and guitar with him, but it is a struggle. Long school hours and saturday school every other week, coupled with quite a lot of time spent on judo do not help and I think leisure time is crucial too. Still, I will have a chat with him at the weekend and see how he feels about me taking an active role in teaching him either guitar or piano. I so do not want to be a pushy parent!

Adrian

I should have mentioned that I have a child grown out of the house. I "made" her take piano lessons for about 4 years. She plays beautifully but there were alot of tears from her with words that echo in my memory "I can't do it, I can't do it". She never understood that practice was for working on it. She loves piano- and I am glad I made her practice (and she's glad)...but I didn't want it to be the same way with my younger daughter. I'm older and tired and think I couldn't have dealt with crying about it, for a number of reasons. So I tested the waters with the first year with the little one- and she loves piano. Oldest and youngest are like night and day really.

In the end, the oldest is very glad I "made" her stick with it. I will admit though, it was hard on me at the time- but I never let the whole day be about piano- it was just that 30 min.

These days the I never use a clock with the little one- she's just on and off the piano several times a day.

Looking back, the oldest also loved recitals. She was the only little kid smiling before and after she played. I took that as a sign she loved playing but hated practicing. To this day her personality and work ethic are very similar to those old piano days...she loves the benefits of things but hates the work.

The little one seems to "love" the work and is gratified internally with the results of her effort.

Parenting is hard. We NEVER get it 100% right. Hopefully our kids know we love them- and did the best we knew how at the time.

MrsSV,

I can really feel your situation. My youngest plays the flute. He's good at it. At age eleven he's first chair in the middle school honors band flute section. But he's incredibly ....... hmmm, let's just say that he too loves the benefit but not the work.

I started off treating him like my older and more pliable piano son. What a catastrophe. We butted heads. Now the only thing I try to do is enforce 30 minutes of daily practice. Even that little time is often inefficiently used. I noticed that the gap in ability between him and his peers is beginning to close, and it bothered me. Aha! you see, my ego IS involved. Knowing that fact is one big reason for taking a big step back. If he's not interested in making progress, it's just not gonna happen. That's his personality. It doesn't have to be about competition with his peers (though in a competitive band, failure to grow will be punished!). He has to decide that making music is fun, or valuable for whatever reason. The reason has to persuade him, not me.

The most I can do for him is offer appropriate praise, and very mild suggestions. Whenever I note the obvious (practice time needs to grow, tone isn't improving ....) a wall immediately springs up between us. I can also try to entice him into playing flute/piano works with me. Come to think of it, I haven't tried that in a while. But he will NOT accept the kind of supervised practice that my older son thrives on, so I just don't even try any more.

This is why I am so reluctant to suggest my approach as a model for anyone ....unless they see characteristics in my situation that closely match theirs. It is also why I am uncomfortable when I hear generalizations about things that are supposedly vital to everyone's musical (or family, or whatever) success.

It's all a matter of degree. I've also heard many adults say "if only my parents would have made me practice more, I sure wish I could play."

There are problems with both extremes. If you stay rigid, you might not find your niche. If you don't exercise some discipline and quit when the going gets tough, you'll grow up without any real skill.

Maybe it's just the company I keep, but the adults I meet who wish their parents had been more strict outnumber those who don't by a wide margin.

I agree with Kreisler. The big problem is extremes in either direction. I will venture to say there probably isn't a teacher on this forum who would willingly take on a student who genuinly hated piano lessons. That would be my worst teaching nightmare. However there is a big difference between that and having a student who is just going through a rough patch with piano. If I had quit over frusteration with a song or a period when I wasn't as keen on practicing I would have sorely regretted it. How many children would quit school or not do their homework of their parents gave them full control?

I think it is important for children to be exposed to different activities, and of course they are not going to love all of them. However what good does it do them to be allowed to drop anything on a whim? Not only does that teach them to quit when the going gets a little tough, but also they are never going to excel at anything. There have to be priorities, no matter what the parents decide they should be.

MrsSV, that is a very interesting story because many of us wonder how our kids will see things once they grow up. It's very insightful to hear you say she enjoys the benefit but not the work. That does seem like an inborn trait--nothing you encouraged, of course. The same with your younger daughter the opposite way. If we could train kids to enjoy the work, we'd all be doing it!

Piano*Dad, it must be very hard to see all that talent going less developed than it could be. I guess it's why there are so few people at the very, very top. It takes such a combination of qualities--talent (whatever that is), manual dexterity, work ethic, problem solving skills, and others. Having almost all of it isn't enough because there is someone out there with every single element. It's just so hard when you can see the talent a child has, whether it's in academics or music or any other area, and see that he has no intention of pushing himself to use all of it. Schools are full of those kids, and I know it will lead to regrets on their part when they become adults, but it's part of growing up.

About our tennis choice--we didn't discuss it much with him then because he was eight. Since then we have told him and given him our reasoning: that it would take almost every bit of our extra resources--vacation money, other lessons, plus I'd have to work full-time--on the chance he could be a professional. And even if we thought he could, it would not be fair to his brothers, and if he were to get injured as a teenager, we would have gambled his childhood (not to mention all our time and money) and lost. When you watch the players on TV, you know their parents are bigger risk takers than we are. But for every young person in the Australian Open, there are hundreds that worked almost as hard but didn't make it. As those of you with a child in sports knows, the "travel team" and "tournament" life is very hard on the whole family. Our son seems very happy to be a well-rounded, occasional tournament kid, and we're grateful for that.

Nancy

Balance is hard to find, especially since no two children are alike. The same "forumla" if you will doesn't work with every child.

I remember as a kid I was told to practice 30 min. a day (on clarinet) and a chart had to be filled in and signed by a parent. I was thrilled to take a completed chart to my teacher every week...and loved putting 40 or 60 min. on there instead of 30. As I got older, I spent hours a day (sometimes 1 1/2 or 2 or 3 or more) on my clarinet. It was the love of my life for many years. I never had to be pushed into practice- only pulled away from it. I took piano only for a year (I don't recall loving or hating it)- but that afforded me to be able to plink for enjoyment to this day.

How shocking when my older daughter had to be pushed so hard to put in 30 min. (five times a week). And then to my surprise the little one has her own "push" mechanism built right into her personality (and usually 7 days a week). I do oversee her to help her keep on track because she's still so young. Somehow she just understands that there is an end result from practicing very regularly...and that end is worth all the work she puts in daily. The end result for her far outweighs the work she puts in. And she does have to work. I just keep thinking she's going to hit a wall where the work outweighs the end result, but not so far. I also thought that as the pieces got progressively harder she would slow down- but that is not happening either. In fact she seems to get new and harder things faster and faster. I don't really understand it. I do find it all very interesting- but I find as accolades come to us about her (and people are quick to praise a parent for how well a child plays)I have to be very guarded concerning my ego- I hate that I have one, but we all do. Besides, all that she does really has nothing to do with me- I didn't give her the ability she has.

I think AJB is a little wrong saying that teachers don't ask their families to listen. That is the basis of how I teach!! And I know other teachers too say listening is important.

I agree with you, AJB, listening and parental love for music is the foundation for motivating a child to want to learn.

I'm sorry to hear of your childhood in this way.

For me it was the exact opposite! But in some way just as bad.
Both my parents musicians, classical music played 24/7.
I had 2 years of piano lessons ages 6-8, did very well, then we moved. I wanted to continue but instead wound up taking flute lessons.
The piano was my mom's instrument. Thus I learned the flute. This was okay for her. I still played the piano because I loved it so much, taught myself, begged for lessons... "stay with the flute, she said."
It wasn't until I was 22 and could pay for piano lessons myself when I started lessons again.
I actually did a pretty good job teaching myself, for I was accepted by a fomidable teacher and in a year was on scholarship studying piano performance.

Strange how different our paths are.

I don't even think my oldest remembers all the tears and how she had to be pushed to practice. But I sure remember, like it was yesterday. At least since it's not an issue for her I really don't have to fight with myself feeling bad or guilty for "making" her practice. I would feel so bad to this day if it had ill affected her to be made to practice. At the time I felt a little bad- but overall I just thought making her practice was the right thing to do- kinda like looking at it like homework- though I never told her it was like homework, I just treated it as a necessity.

It is interesting to read MrSv and Piano*Dad's description of having very different children - so are mine.

The girl has always been really hard working on both school and music, she's become good at sight-reading and she plays very well with others, but she has too little talent and too small hands to become a pianist. She does not really like to be in focus either.

The boy is a lazy one - he's doing fine at school with a minimum of effort - he tells me he has practiced piano before I get home - that usually means for about 15 min. He loves to play for others, though, and does not mind a big audience. I am quite sure he is the one with most talent and also the one with the "piano-fingers" - but he tells me "Mama, i will not be a pianist - I have other plans "

I guess there is very little I can do about that ?

Ragnhild

Here are my reasons:

Learning music has been proven to increase overall IQ. It improves ability in certain subjects such as mathematics. The IQ increase measured was between 2 and 6 points in a year I believe.

I rediscovered music as an adult first with the guitar and then with the piano. I missed many years of potential learning as a child because my parents did not have any real interest in seeing me learn music. I want to give my children at least a very good opportunity to explore music and enjoy it for life.

Learning piano takes dedication and hard work. Sometimes practice is tedious and progress seems remote. However, the rewards can be huge. Unlike video games, there is not instant gratification with the piano. Skill with the piano is something you earn over time. This is something I think all children have to learn about life. If it came easy, it would not be worth nearly as much.

I appreciated and agreed with many of the responses. I have four daughters and the youngest two play piano. I've always thought it was an important role of parents to help children discover their "calling." I don't necessarily mean future career, but what they are meant to be and do in all aspects of their life.

So, when one of my children showed an unusual interest in anything, or if I thought they had special abilities in a certain area, I encouraged it. For example, all my children love to draw. As a parent, I always had unlimited supplies of crayons and white paper for them.

As my husband and I aren't particularly musical, I was surprised when one of my daughters scored very high in an auditory recognition area on a evaluation designed to diagnose a learning disability. The psychologist indicated that this might mean she would do well with an instrument. I signed her up for a group violin class. She was playing tunes by ear within 2 weeks and is amazing her teacher. When she wanted to add piano, I wholeheartedly agreed.

When we got the piano, the 5-year old would sit down and play her sister's suzuki violin repetoire. I started her in piano, when she expressed an interest.

I am thrilled with how well the kids are developing musically, but I can honestly say, I am the most happy that we discovered at least one thing they are good at and enjoy.