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Great advice. I might also add that it would be helpful to play all the scales, not just C Major and to learn the arpeggios and chord cadences in their various inversions at the same time.

Something that helped me too beyond careful listening was going from one to four octaves while accenting each, the second, the third or the fourth note. Also, playing the chord cadences while emphasizing certain notes (voicing the chords)

Scales are extremely important for several reasons:

1) They help with being able to play in any key

2) They assist with dexterity and evenness when encountering scales within a piece

3) They help with learning proper fingering, or figuring out fingering alternatives that are efficient

4) They help with understanding the harmonic structure upon which our tonal system is based by understanding the sale degrees and their function (if even on a subconscious level)

5) They assist with harmonic analysis, especially in regards to determining minor keys by having played harmonic and melodic minor scales and knowing the rules of creating them

I'm sure there are more benefits than I've listed here, but these should be more than enough reason to do them. Also, I do recommend chord cadences and arpeggios with scales as part of a routine.

Never stick your elbows out! You lead with your fingertips ALWAYS.

They are called scales in thirds and scales in sixths and are a requirement for the higher grade exams.

Two different schools of technique - one school teaches the arm leads the hand, in effect, pulling the hand across the keyboard. Elbows would be slightly out in this case.

KBK, my first teacher taught me the fingers leading, elbows remaining at side, technique. As a teacher, I've had to learn both.

Aha John, but what do you teach?

I, too, know them as scales in thirds and scales and sixths. There must have been a reason, or different perspective, in calling one hand Phrygian (with the other being Ionian, of course). They are, in fact, that as well. If there is a shifted perspective (modal thinking? jazz thinking? other?) it would be interesting to have that insight.

Elbows: the part that confused me was that the elbows were supposed to fix an up-down motion of the hand. I don't have such a motion, and I don't know how one would end up with such a motion that would require fixing.

What I have extrapolated is that if one were to have a relatively immobile thumb, the hand would have to tip the thumb into position - instead the elbow could twist the thumb into position by giving the hand a small pivot.

John: I'm extrapolating again - Assuming the thumb is doing what it should, one could feel the motion of the hand moving over as beginning in the hand with the forearm and elbow moving with it. Or one could feel that the arm transports the hand into the new position, carrying along the hand. Would this be the gist of these two schools?

Pianoexcellence, I have not thanked you for your advice. I had asked what sound one might be after and similar things - the metaphor about skiing and water skiing etc. which you posted to Rada was of that ilk. Generally speaking I avoid physical advice on playing, especially if a teacher cannot see me, and feel most comfortable dealing with such things in the live presence of a teacher. Even if it is good advice there is no guarantee that I will interpret it correctly, nor is there anyone to see and then correct me.

While exploring your idea I did discover things in my hand I found disturbing, having recorded it via webcam and could even make a significant correction. At least I became aware of a few things - so thank you.

A major scale in sixths is just that, regardless of what you may be thinking at the time.

What I learned about playing a scale is this:

C major: Hand spans 5 notes. Fingers resting on keys. RH: As soon as 2 is played, thumb shoots over to F under the 4th finger, moving from deepest joint by the hand. Thumb plays F, and a millisecond *afterward* the hand moves in position so that the 5 fingers are spanning F to C. In a sense, the thumb has opened from its "under" position, or the hand is moving from across that same joint. The fingers settle into position and 2 plays a millisecond later, then the other fingers. The moment that 2 has played, the thumb scoots the greater distance of a 4th, over the C. Flexibility in the thumb is needed.

When I was taught this, I was told that there is a feeling to the hand as though the thumb were almost perpetually underneath. Unfortunately it was not in person.

I am interested in what AZN was thinking, and that is why I asked *him* that question that question, of what *he* (not you or I) was thinking. One can indeed perceive it as two modes being played side by side - in what context might a person be perceiving it that way?

No, you can't perceive it as two modes at once. Isn't *he* a *she*?

Keyboard Klutz...

First of all, I agree with John that "slightly out" is a better description than "out".

Second of all...I cannot believe that you would say things like "never" or "always reach with fingers". I have really enjoyed your posts on this forum, but those "always" and "never" close a lot of doors for a pianists.

If we are discussing a primary technique for playing in general, then it is a different story. We can agree to respectfully disagree.

There is a time and place for both techniques in repertoire. In fact, repertoire will call for many techniques other than the two we are calling into question.

If you read my post, you will see that I am talking about merely one technique to be used in scale practice. When using arm weight for scales, leading with the elbow is a good supplement to the movement.

The idea is that this movement and feeling will be mastered within the safety of a technical pattern, then another can be explored...very likely your "reach with fingers" technique.

Try to shape a phrase in a delicate brahms intermezzo without using arm-weight and blended movement (leading with upper and lower arm).... or try to play a fugue with clarity without using your fingery reaching technique.

Both can be done, but both could be done more effectively through using more appropriate techniques.

We can sit and go back and forth...lead with elbow...reach with fingers.

In the end, it is like debating what is better to have...a sedan or an SUV. It really depends on what you want to do at the moment you are driving. So it's good to have both in your garage.

I'm afraid I have no use for either car or garage. The sensation of tone production is at the finger tips. That's where your consciousness resides. The body, elbows and all, takes care of itself. Sorry if find this sounds intransigent; it's supposed to be. By the way, I was born in BC. My grandad's buried in Prince George. How about that!

Steve, B Mus, DipABRSM, PGCE, BUM

Prince George huh?

When are you going to move back to the land of mosquitos?

Actually, it's beautiful up there.

I have to say that I have found most of your posts (over the years) to be authoritative. I don't yet fully agree with your "arms will take care of themselves" comment. I am certainly willing to go spend a little time trying it out.

After all, years ago I opposed my teacher when she told me to lead with my elbow...then fell in love with the technique when it really worked when used appropriately

Then I opposed my Next teacher who told me to play with a "spark in my fingertips", then became convinced when I played with more energy and clarity than ever before.

I'll give it a shot.

I just happen to want a 10 car garage.

...I love it!

Guess I'd better start practicing the scales too :rolleyes: , especially after reading pianoexcellence's excellent first post in this excellent thread!

Well, how gentlemanly of you pianoex to consider trying my suggestions. Here is Thomas B. Knott from Pianoforte Fingering (1928 - when my dad was born, also BC): I like the 'spark' analogy. It conjures up the magic of the whole thing. I saw it with my own teacher.

Hi klutz ...
Couldn’t agree with you more about distancing yourself from the unhappy analogy of gas-guzzling US vehicles ... but then, who would want to own a motor car in London? (EII perhaps)

Talking of which ... I thought you might like to share a giggle with our top cartoonist Zapiro in celebrating the magic of Nelson Mandela ... here’s Z’s swing at the Buckingham Palace
passing parade ...

mandela

Too true. I don't think anyone's lining up for a photo op with her!

KBK - wow, this thread suddenly exploded.

You asked what I teach. What I do is watch my students very intensely to see how their body works and then work with them to achieve clean sound and velocity. Most of the time, we end up with the arm leading, but not always. And as their body grows, techniques change/adapt.