Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Anybody wanna talk about S&M?

I've brought this up a couple of times in the last few weeks. So many threads seem to beat around the bush as this basic relationship of piano teacher/student is not laid bare. The movie/novel 'The Piano Teacher' probably lights up the topic better than anything. Like the Oedipal complex it is always there but hardly ever acknowledged or, more importantly, its ramifications unnoticed. Perhaps that's because it's the water we're swimming in. PS a caveat - this thread is no more about sex than buying flowers for someone.

more specifically... what's on your mind?

It was years ago when I had an abusive teacher I realized (I was late 30's) what a crazy relationship was going on. I left ASAP. She was lacking a real knowledge of technique even though getting the very best education. Using the S&M complex obviously helped her fill the gap emotionally. Maybe it's like a magic ring that...

there there....there there

:rolleyes:

Growing up in Asia, I've had many abusive teachers in the public school system, back when corporal punishment was the norm. There was this one teacher who seemed to enjoy hitting her students--she's always smiling when doing that.

I didn't stay with her long. The real trouble was as soon as I sat down all the keys swam about. I could tell her hand was desperate to hold a ruler.

For some, it's all they know.

Or, God forbid, they be nice...


How much quicker do people respond to abuse than to kind words? Do they?

It's not so simple. What appears to be abuse is often perfectionism. It's knowing that difference which makes the worm turn.

Anything that degrades/condescends the dignity of another is classified as abuse...teaching is no exception.

The problem with many private piano teachers is that their behavior is not moderated by anyone. I really struggle with the lack of 'duty of care' some teachers seem to have...

Perfectionism is an expectation, abuse is a behavior. Any teacher with a brain cell knows there is no such thing as perfection...not on this planet anyway. To hold onto such a concept and teach it obssessively is delusional and abusive...

'Emotional intelligence' is highly under-rated in my opinion, amongst private music teachers...the amount of psychological issues my students have aquired from the dysfunctional teachings of other piano teachers have been many. I spend years undoing the damage of others...

There's alot of bullying inflicted on students that goes on behind the doors of a music studio , and I find it appalling.

Rant over

Disagree - perfectionism is a behaviour and the lesser evil.

Lesser to what? Abuse? In my opinion, the demand of perfectionism is abuse.

Agreed.

Perfectionism is a weakness in the will or self-understanding of a teacher. Abuse that gratifies, fills a hole, is the abhorrent one.

I had an abusive teacher for about 2 lessons... that's all I was prepared to have them milk my energy...fantastic performer, won an international piano competition. But a troubled soul makes for a crap teacher.

Thankfully, I've had many great teachers who have had a shred or more dignity for themselves...and for others.

You can't give to others what you don't possess for yourself...and being famous does not excuse abusive behavior.

I believe the two are intertwined...I think perfectionism expectations laid thick on a student at all costs (and the cost is usually to the student's self-esteem, sense of self, self-worth, belief in one's abilities) vicariously gratifies and fills a hole in the teachers in question...a dysfunctional projection of their own frustrations, feelings of inadequacies, etc.

Point blank in my opinion: Perfectionism is abuse...an expectation that cannot be achieved, and an arrogance that delivers such expectation in a manner that will only ruin the 'sense of self' and authentic potential of the student

Absolutely!

No. It has its malign but also benign side. It's something every class teacher faces every lesson everywhere in the world. Its what every conductor faces and every piano teacher - their perfect project. Its how you handle it that's the key.

Personally I think the word 'perfect' should be abolished from the English language...at least in it's present meaning.

Perfection 'is what is as it is' in it's natural form...the expectation towards it should only be one of achieving one's authentic potential as 'guided' by another...People achieve the unthinkable when encouraged towards their own path, and not demanded to follow the path of another exactly as the ideal of another dictates obsessively. It's a fine line of guidance, but a magical one that can go very wrong...but for the sake of going on a too wholistic rant, I'll end my side of the arguement. Thanks for the conversing! Have appreciated your replies and input!

The will to be the world is good - it is after all, all there is. It's how you use it that makes the difference.

I have had "perfectionistic" students. The thing is, with perfectionism comes frustration, because it is unattainable. And expecting something that is not possible or doesn't happen causes frustration. It is a real problem in some students, and they need allow themselves to fail. I always allow my students to fail and make mistakes because that is how we learn. Now if we fail or make mistakes without learning from it, then it is useless.

To impose such behavior (or to manipulate students either physically or emotionally) is wrong and is most likely deeply rooted in the teacher's inability to measure up to their own standard. This insecurity then gets passed onto the student. Ultimately, the responsibility falls on the parents, or the student if they are adult, to recognize when something is not healthy. This sort of thing happens even more so in voice teaching because of the nature of having to trust your teacher, who may have absolutely no clue what they're doing. It is so damaging!

Lets try and get our definition of perfectionism sorted. We make the world in our own image - it is the only image we have. The will to do this is Perfectionism. As I noted above, it is neither good nor bad, the problem is where you allow it to take you.

I don't know what makes piano teachers so exempt from the 'have absolutely no clue' club.

Well, I'm sure they are out there, but to be honest, I know many good piano teachers in my area, and *NO* good voice teachers. In fact, I know of only a handful of good voice teachers in the country.

Perfectionism, the belief that "perfection" is a possible and attainable goal, is pathological.

However, a bit of restlessness can be good, and progress is often driven by those who believe there is always something better, that it's attainable, and that we strive for it.

If I can invent a word, I'd like to invent "Mediocratism" - the belief that it's okay to be satisfied with something that's not very good.

Good teaching has to avoid both. Being a perfectionist causes one to be perpetually disappointed in themselves and in their students; being a mediocratist causes one to be perpetually disappointing, always falling short of one's potential.

How about another word: "Onesbestism"?

Perfectionism has been high-jacked by the psychological world only recently and to the word's detriment. I had to sit through a whole hour's lecture last month on the dangers, pitfalls etc of perfectionism by a music psychologist. What is it your gun lobby say? It's not the gun but the finger on the trigger.

We have no choice but make the world perfect. What are we supposed to do make it mediocre? Although that would seem to be the aim in life for a vast swathe of humanity.

I've been thinking about your initial post, kbk, and some people simply aren't happy, and this they impress on everybody else.

How is one who isn't happy supposed to be critical, yet kind, when they teach without losing all care? ("Sure, sounded great, whatever... Practice more you piece of ****.")


Perhaps this is just a reflection of my current mood, but I believe it's relevant in its own way.

An unbalanced emotional state will also send the delicate S&M complex askew.

I like it! Although I think 99% of the people in the world underestimate what their best is.

kbk, that is very true. Many strive for perfection, knowing full well it's impossible, and that's not a bad thing. When one becomes obsessed with perfection then it can be damaging.

That's why I think as an educator, my job is to hear the potential that each student has and guide them to be the best they can be. That means that not all students will even get close to perfect, and that's OK. We keep working at getting better.

Yeh, I can go with that. It's about the direction not the goal.

I tell my students that there is no such thing as perfection but that we can strive for it and should.

Otherwise how do we achieve to play at our very best?

Morodiene, I do like the idea of "onesbestism". May use that one... although depending on the student that word might be synonimis with perfection depending on how one feels about one's self.

I guess I don't feel anything is wrong with striving for perfection, just as long we are realistic in knowing that it is our personal best that is realistic and what we should be proud of.

The real teachers - as opposed to the crazed wackos who pretend to be teachers - convey their perfectionism in a way that makes the student feel good about striving for perfection. It works a lot better, by the way; happier students play better.

If I could make an analogy to dog training (forgive me for that), yes, you can train a dog by beating it every time it gets the trick wrong. But you will also teach the dog to be afraid of you and to hate the training process. A far better way to train the dog is to reward it every time it gets the trick right. It will learn the trick, but it will also learn to like the training process and to like you (and to want to learn more tricks).

I've had 7 crazy piano teachers as a child. All were repressed sadists. All of them treated me in a way that would get them jailed if they treated their dog (or their child) that way. Sure, I learned technique; but I also got a stutter (which took years to lose), and acquired all sorts of nervous habits.

It was only when I started taking lessons again this summer, with a truly wonderful pianist, that I understood that a piano teacher could be kind, gentle, positive, and still have very high standards for his students.

In fact, I think that you can get a student closer to perfection by kindness than you ever could by abuse. I noticed this in my math students, especially. Being kind to them, earning their respect, and helping them realize that you are, in fact, paying attention to what they're doing, makes them a lot more careful about mistakes. Same for piano students - it's possible to make the same corrections in a nice way or a nasty way, and the nice way gets much better results. It doesn't mean you let mistakes slide; it just means you don't flog the student every time s/he makes a mistake.

So what's more important? How we feel about ourselves or how well we play the piano? Some equate who they are with how well they can play. This is a sad trap and should be avoided.

It sets students up to equate self-worth with technical skill and prowess. Another sad myth that's destroyed many lives. And not just in the music world.

--------------------------
Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com

I'd be interested to know what the Dog Whisperer thinks on this one. I think he's an incredible teacher.

My point exactly.

Neither, it's how we feel period.

It's entirely possible to feel good about yourself and to play the piano well. But you have to have a non-abusive piano teacher for that. It doesn't have to be about "equating self-worth with technical prowess" - it can be merely taking a healthy satisfaction in a job well done. Don't we all want to do well at the things we choose to do? Isn't it always nice to be praised for doing well at the thing you choose to do?

Yeah, if you have an abusive piano teacher, you will be faced with the false dichotomy of "Do I want to feel good about myself (i.e. quit piano lessons because my piano teacher makes me feel like garbage) or get good at playing the piano (i.e. stay with the abusive teacher even though he makes you feel like garbage). But that's only a dichotomy if your teacher is abusive. Music-making, in and of itself, gives people joy.

Okay, I'm probably going to hate myself in the morning, but what is S&M????

I hope people who are reading this (and other recent threads) do not assume that abusive classical piano teachers are commonplace.

That would be an easy conclusion to draw from what some have posted. I am not doubting those posts...there are evil people in every walk of life. And I am truly sorry for whatever abuse anyone has experienced from such a so-called piano "teacher". (NOT!)

However, on the contrary, I do not think that is the norm.

I had several piano teachers as a child, and they were all very nice to me.

Plus, I teach at a large facility with over 300 students (not all piano), and have had on average 25 students a week for ten years now.

I have never seen abuse at work, and never heard any of my adult re-starters mention abuse. Nor from any of the musicians I come into contact with as a church pianist, band member, etc.

I'm sure it happens...but the repetitive negative testimony of a few could cause the world-wide forum readers to get a slanted impression, and perhaps influence some of them to avoid piano lessons, or even avoid pursuing music altogether.

And that would be very abusive.

Good point, rocket. I was just thinking about that. There are bad apples in every basket, but we certainly should not convey the impression that all teachers are sadomasochistic monsters...

Larisa, I think you should write a book or screenplay -- if Elfriede Jelinek can win a Pulitzer prize with one imaginary crazy piano teacher, imagine what you could do with your real-life holy seven!

I am sure your experience was as terrible as you describe it. I hear of an even more common problem here which is that parents are hiring teachers for their children without any intention of practicing or doing the work. The piano teacher is expected to act almost like a Birthday Party Clown and Baby Sitter for that hour or overly tailor their approach making piano arrangements of pop songs or game themes for them, trying to make up for lack of work in the lesson, etc. At the first sign of any kind of discipline, the child is removed from lessons. That also can't be the future of piano lessons for children. Someone needs to impose the discipline and in general that will not be the 8 year old.

For my part I have never come across any nor do I know anyone who has had such an experience as yours. Certainly not among the adult learners I know. On the other hand, there are loads and loads of those calling themselves teachers but who don't have a clue about pedagogy. Especially in the "outlying areas"; In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King. If one is lucky enough to live in a decent-sized city with a music culture, one is truly spoiled for choice of brilliant, stimulating, talented, effective... and expensive teachers. Few teaching adults in Western Europe are tyrants from what I have seen.

What I see more than crazies or meanies or "S&M" are these kinds of problems:

1. Successful teacher plans too many lessons, no breaks in between and so you always have to wait, make someone else wait, & always get a shorter lesson than you pay for or even come to the studio for nothing;

2. Teacher sees your lesson as an opportunity to demonstrate their sight-reading and superior expressive ability and wants you to observe them playing your homework while you drink tea;

3. Teacher figures you are there for a hobby and entertainment or that you wouldn't want to put in the work to improve anyway and therefore is reluctant to correct you, turning the lesson into nothing more than an adored play-through with politely, couched general suggestions rather than getting under the hood and doing real work.

4. Teacher and student never connect in a sweet spot. The student keeps wanting to do too difficult repertoire which he butchers and the teacher would like student to spend time on the potentially boring fundamentals and work on expression in pieces that are technically easy and so an uncomfortable, ineffective, ultimately disappointing dance ensues.

That all depends on what you classify as abuse. The thread though is about an S&M complex which due to the special nature of the one-to-one piano teaching relationship is always present - maybe best described as a hole waiting for teachers (and students) to fall into.

kbk, I think you'll have a hard time getting people to admit that the "S&M complex" is "always" present.

If anything, probably best for one to acknowledge that it exists, then it can be actively repressed.


I'm also extending the idea to master-pupil -> master-slave.

Yes, much better put Sal. It really is analogous to the Oedipal - in fact there's a little bit of that in there too.

Not so simple though. Just to complicate matters, here's the job description for a pedagogue: From A Day in Old Athens, by William Stearns Davis (1910)
Professor of Ancient History at the University of Minnesota

I believe they also sat at the back of the classroom during lessons. So actually Sal, I think you want to ask who, in fact, is the slave?

Good question, and an interesting read.

One could easily argue that us teachers are the slaves. Afterall, do we not go out of our way on our students' behalves?

And yet, it is the pedagogue who holds the whip.

Who do you think did the beatings in the American South? Who ushered people into the gas chambers?

I got excited at your topic title thinking someone wanted to talk about the album by Metallica "S&M - Symphony & Metallica".

Oh well, back to the topic.....

Whilst we all strive for perfection, it is one of those unattainable things that is always just out of reach (or way off in the distance, depending on the challenge and the person involved).

However there is absolutely no excuse for trying to abuse the student no matter how bored, angry or depressed the educator/ mentor may be. Unfortunately some educators have had the bad vibes instilled in them by their own past experience and don't know any better, others are just bad. Luckily there are an overwhelming majority of good educators who can encourage and push a student along in the right way. I'm sorry yours wasn't one of those.

I also really like the system in Athletics or Swimming in the Commonwealth, Olympic Games and World Championship stage where a person who may not have won an event - or even come close - is encouraged and praised when the do a "PB" or "personal best". Would be great if it could be measured and done in the musical world.

This is very true. Self-esteem isn't all it's cracked up to be. If gives many an inflated view of their self-worth to the point that now in the workforce there are many who feel they are irreplaceable and feel they are entitled to more than the next person **edited to add: simply because of who they are, not that they work harder or better.

Everyone has value, but there is no need to dwell on that or create an inflated view of self. Encourage, yes, but that is different in that it is simply letting a person know they *can* accomplish something that you know is well within their grasp. It is also giving them the tools to problem-solve when they run into obstacles along the way. It is never "you're such a good person because you practice so much" but always "you are doing well at practicing regularly".

I was on the professional track, back in Russia. This was how Russian concert pianists were trained. Abuse was expected, and encouraged. At the age of 6, I studied with a psychiatrically unsound teacher whose task was to prepare me for the audition for a fancy music school (pre-Conservatory). She had me playing Bach's F minor prelude and fugue from the WTC, along with other things - at the age of 6. (I still didn't pass the audition because I was too Jewish, but that's another story) I still remember that piece, by the way.

I understand that there are many many parents who don't want the teacher to impose any kind of discipline on the child. But again, this sets up a false dichotomy between the "mean teacher" who teaches well, and the "nice teacher" who cannot teach at all. It's a false dichotomy that is used by abusers to justify abuse, and by lazy and "nice" teachers to justify doing nothing. When the student complains of the ill-treatment, the abusive teacher can just say "Well, go to a "nice" teacher - it'll be great, but you won't learn anything!" Likewise, when the student of a "nice" teacher complains that he's not learning anything, the teacher can just say "Well, go to a mean teacher - you'll learn a lot, but he'll beat you!" Neither of the above teachers are good teachers, and neither should be teaching.

As for who imposes the discipline - it has to be the parents. The teacher won't be around to force the kid to practice every day. The parents are. If the parents are not interested in helping the kid practice and the kid is not interested in practicing, the kid should not be taking piano lessons.

Just for the record, I got very very good results with two Vietnamese students who practiced 2 hours a day (enforced by their parents). One of them went from total beginner to playing a simple Mozart sonata in a year, and played with feeling, understanding, and good technical competence. And I did not have to be mean to him. I was demanding, sure (I always have very high expectations of my students) - but not mean. I'm not sure his parents were all that mean to him either; but he knew that if he wanted to keep taking piano lessons, he had to practice 2 hours a day. And he wanted to keep taking piano lessons.

Good article on self-esteem:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=exploding-the-self-esteem

(It's just a preview, but find the full version at a library or buy it online. It's quite interesting!)

So I sat in on a lesson today down the hall.


The piece was a simple Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. The topic was counting. 4 beats in a measure. Girl was in 2nd grade, had been taking lessons for two months. Supposedly she knew all this stuff last week, but this week brought her to tears.

She was quizzed and re-quizzed on which notes get how long, then add them up, then how many beats in the measure. (It started with, "count while you play. You're not counting. How did you practice at home? Well why can't you count now?") There were finger numbers above the notes... she never did get past the second measure, at least not while I was around.


In any case, afterwards, the teacher asked me, "have you ever seen that?" My response was "yes--when I was learning." (heck, when I had my one lesson with her, I felt the same way.) And then she went off about how she couldn't add 1+1+1+1.


Here, the teacher was definitely the master.

Perhaps the "nice" teachers are the slaves.

And the "good" teachers find a middle ground on which to stand.

Pardon, Sal - but would you consider what you witnessed "teaching"?

Good point. I didn't witness any "teaching". I have seen her "teach" too, but not today.

I suppose she was just sick of it... the student didn't know it (today.) She'd been taught it.

(Not trying to make excuses, just my analysis.)

Interesting. If I can say just one thing as an experienced inner-city school teacher, it's that the bully's, the knife wielders and gun toters don't suffer from lack of self-esteem - if anything they have a surfeit of the stuff.

Sal,

I wouldn't expect any new student much less one 8 years old with 8 piano lessons under their belt to be able to play even the simplified 5 Finger Positioned arrangement by themselves without teaching before hand to the piece and what it contains. There is just too much disjunct movement in the melody, and it is importnat to teach conjunct movement first, as well as songs with pattern repetition, both melodic and rhythmic, before giving a student such a mixed bag of tasks as in "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik".

4/4 would be hard to count with dotted notes and the quick forward thrusting motion of the theme.

To me, this sounds like "madness" from the teacher and does not reflect (from your telling us what you witnessed) a teacher teaching, nor a lesson being given. Stupidity and unpreparedness on the teachers part. To lay down the teaching concepts first, accurately and strongly, is the first step of teaching.

This poor child with confused inpulses will not be able to learn from this teacher, perhaps no one will be able to learn.

What kind of "music school" is this?

I'm shutting my eyes in sadness to hear about it. This is not an innocent situation. Our job is to nurture and inform how to think, plan, and make improvements.

Children cannot function when they are made to feel to be an idiot.

Oh, my!

It isn't a music school. She and I are the only music teachers.

I, too, would not expect a student to play that by herself. (Ironically, I assigned the version in PA1 acc. to a student earlier only going through it once early today. (the student's pretty much past that point.) Her version was near identical.) In any case, I gathered that the piece was homework, so I would assume that the piece had been covered before.

Her students do learn, and I ask to sit in on occasion to see HOW they learn. Other than her lesson with me, this was the most extreme case I've seen. Other times she's seemed not bad at all.


It does lead to the question: why?

Perfectionism only answers the question in so much as "the student didn't practice" (though she claims she did... While I wasn't there the whole time, I didn't even get a chance to hear what she COULD do, which is the complete opposite of what I generally do.)


My understanding is that this was how she learned to play, and so the circle continues...

Am familiar with this work.
Reminds me of the idea of being "content" or "satisfied". How many great ideas, companies, artists, music etc. were created by content and satisfied people?

Sounds like a witch to me. I can think of about a thousand ways to teach rhythm that work better.

More than you'd think. Yes, sometimes, if you torture a person, you'll get great art; but most of the time, if you torture a person, you get an emotional wreck who cannot create any kind of art. For every Beethoven, you have ten thousand failed "prodigies" who are only fit for the mental hospital when their torturing parents get done with them.

I think Haydn wrote great music. I think Bach wrote great music. Both of them had happy, normal lives. The Romantic idea of the tortured soul creating great art is a very 19th-century one. I like the 21st century better.

This is not "teaching" at all - it's an S&M exercise.

Here's how I would do it:

First, ask the student to count "1, 2, 3, 4, ..." without playing anything. It's hard to talk and play at the same time. Heck, it's hard enough to play without talking. Say "Good job!" when the kid counts evenly. Smile at the kid.

Next, ask the student to count "1-ee-and-a-2-ee-and-a-...." without playing anything. If you're playing dotted rhythms, you have to understand that each beat is subdivided into 4. I usually draw a diagram at that point. If the kid has had fractions in math class, I explain it in terms of fractions. If not, I just draw a picture - a line divided into 4, and each of the 4 parts divided into 4. Explain until the kid gets the idea. Praise the kid when she gets it.

Next, ask the kid to clap the dotted rhythm while counting. Explain that this is what it should sound like on the piano. Praise the kid to the skies when she gets it right. Say something about how this is sooo hard for everyone, and that she got it so fast - she must be so talented!

Finally, ask the kid to slow waaaaaaaaaaaaaay down and count and play at the same time. If the kid is having trouble talking and playing at the same time, I ask her to tap her foot and play. That seems to be easier for some kids. Or I ask the kid to just say "Blah, blah, blah, blah" in rhythm instead of counting - it's easier to keep track of, and makes the kid laugh. And we would count 16th notes, by the way, not quarter notes - the dotted rhythm needs to be precise, and counting quarter notes won't get you there. Make the kid keep trying until she gets it right ("Oh, you're almost there! You are doing so well! Let's give it one more try so it's perfect!"), and praise her when she gets it perfectly right.

I do not lay any claims to this being the only way to teach rhythm - it depends on the kid - but at least, the above-described counts as "teaching". What the OP described really doesn't.

I think some of you are missing the "simple."

1/2/3 1 | 1/2/3 1 | 1 1 1 1 | 1/2/3 REST |
would be the first phrase. This was at roughly 70 beats per second.


I disagree with teaching counting:

1/2/3 4 | 1/2/3 4 | 1 2 3 4 | I'm bored already and feel nothing and I'm confused to no end.


In any case, yes, we're all in agreement that this wasn't effective. I decided to post it since it was a good example for the topic at hand.

Hmmm. As far as I know, the opposite of content is not "TORTURED!" and the opposite of the word satisfied is not "ABUSED!!!".

Being curious, restless, unsatisfied, even somewhat uncomfortable, or maybe wanting or even needing to prove yourself and prove the world or follow your own way. Those seem to be the more common attributes of those who go far in whatever their endeavor or profession.

The tendency to comfort children in a warm and fuzzy world of "you are so GOOD!" too often results in them concluding that they don't have to do the work while providing the parents with a vanity-driven ego stroke...

http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/index2.html

To Sal,

Teaching elementary counting I would use:

Half Note Dot TA Half Note Dot TA TA TA TA TA Half Note Dot Rest.

(Repeated)

Half Note Dot TA TA TA TA TA Half Note Dot
TA TA TA TA etc......don't have the music handy sorry....etc.

This is the simplest reduction of coaching words for rhythms and lets one see and say where the patterns are. Speech helps to do the counting. I consider knowing these "note value words" to be the key to "Magic Counting".

Other wise the music is being counted to it's location within a measure - "metric counting".

The "Magic Counting" works for all purposes we have in what is achieved through counting.

First of all one has to set the steady tempo of "TA"s.

In general, about this topic: From my prospective of what piano teaching should be all about, I can't imagine the S & M title as applied to the piano teacher. I can see frustrated people, inadequately prepared people, and instability in some piano teachers, but the desire to share what we have and know is a bigger calling to grace than we realize. We shouldn't be called on the carpet for our behavior or attitudes or teaching ability - we either are living in grace in our life or we are frauds. When fraudulence is prevalent with no concern for the higher good of all, it is a sin - in my opinion.

Beware seems good advice when there is reason for distrust. Parents will have to protect their children from sex offenders, kidnappers, and piano teachers if you prove your case against piano teachers in general. A piano teacher would need fingerprints and clearance from the police department on their certification and on their membership association records. Do you think? Taking this thread topic to the extreme, of course.

I think we are pretty important to most of our students lives, and that they can respect and trust us unless we venture away from truth, values, dignity and integrity.

Pretty horrendous subject, Yes? No?

All of this makes me think of the movie "Shine." Except he wasn't tortured by his teacher but by expectations of pleasing daddy. Something Helfgott could never do.

Look how he ended up. Sure, he can still play, but I wonder what kind of emotional shape he's in.

-----------------------------
Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com

The music world is big enough for all types. Some people are Beethovens and some are Mendelssohns.

Even among pianists I know, some lead very healthy, happy lives, both mentally and physically. Others seem tortured by demons, constantly in search of something unattainable or trying to "measure up." There are successes and failures on both sides.

I believe that we respond to things by reacting to them or against them. Some children of alcoholics become alcoholics themselves, some live a life of sobriety and never touch the stuff. The problem is that you never can tell which way someone's going to go.

Some people become complacent and actually respond well to getting beaten up a bit now and then. Others need a constantly warm and fuzzy environment to thrive.

I've always found it odd that some of the people who are so quick to point out that every student is different often approach the student/teacher relationship with a "one-size-fits-all" mentality. I'm not saying that abuse is ever justified, but I am saying that there are times when being very demanding, stern, and insistent are appropriate and even necessary.

I don't think I could go there. I leave that to the parents, who don't seem to want that job description either. Does it make me less of a teacher? For me it's the wonder of looking in rock pools.

Only if you praise the kid for no reason. If you praise the kid for making an effort, s/he will make greater and better efforts. I tried this many times. It really works. In 10+ years of one on one teaching experience, I have yet to find a student on whom well-applied positive reinforcement doesn't work.

As for "content" versus "restlessness" - if the teacher is mean to the student, the only "restlessness" he is going to see is the student squirming in his seat and desperate to get away from the piano (and music in general), most of the time. Yeah, successful people are often restless and curious - but do you really think that mean teachers are more likely to make someone more curious about the world of music? More likely to want to explore further?

I see no conflict between these ideas:
and…
Sometimes people, all people, need a reality check. Life is not always kind, supportive, positive, fun, easy.

Other times people do need encouragement, kindness, and so on.

To me it's all a matter of a healthy balance.

Abuse has nothing to do with criticism vs. praise, and the type of thing that I would consider abuse has nothing to do with reality checks. It's "unreal" from the get go most of the time, because it has to do with the teacher's moods rather than the student's performance, or possibly a teacher's inability to actually teach i.e. transmit the material to be learned in a manner that can be grasped. Some aspects:

- The teacher who behaves in an erratic manner depending on his/her mood, who shouts, throws things, slams piano lids (this was reported by someone in PW), or deliberately belittles the student. If abuse is related to poor performance, at least the student has some control by preparing as well as possible in order to avoid these things. If this prepared student can control responses of fear such as trembling, a mind that shuts down, clumsiness from nervosity, the he/she has a chance. The effort to be as prepared as possible will get a prepared student. But if it only depends on that teacher's moods then you have a situation of powerlesness. Let's hope such a teacher at least knows how to teach when not indulging in such antics.

When belittling a student for the purpose of self-agrandization because of a teacher's low self esteem, or as a power play to deliberately make the student feel worthless and inferior i.e. to crush the student into compliance, that's abuse. Intent and attitude come into play. Such belittling can also be done as pedagogy: i.e. for the purpose of getting the student to strive harder - whether or not it's good and effective pedagogy can be debated, but in this second case the student's welfare and advancement are on the teacher's mind. In any case, getting into a student's mind and persona is probably the worst thing anyone can do to a person. What if the student believes these general bad things about him/herself, and does so for decades?

Would anyone deny that what is described above is abusive, and harmful to the student both as a student and as a future musician? Such teachers and behaviours exist. It is doubtful that many or any of them would inhabit a forum such as PW. But I bet your bottom dollar that some of the adult students who won't take teachers or are just daring to do so now decades later, and some of the musicians and teachers here, have been exposed to such things.

If you are regularly subjected to negative behaviour of that sort, it affects body and mind. You become physically tense and possibly clumsy - inimicable to good playing. People "fumble nervously" and drop things when intimidated: how can this create a good pianist? The mind shuts down, seeks escape, goes into a paralysis - literally "stupefied" or confused - not good for a musician. The student ought to be putting his energy and attention to the music, not having his antennae out for the teacher's mood.

The sad thing is that besides undermining a student's progress, the truly abusive teacher with no pedagogical aim behind the meanness will also lose respect even while gaining compliance.

It is my thought that this is what is meant by abuse or "S&M", and that harsh criticism vs. uplifting praise are not the question under such a serious title.

keystring, you have a way of summing everything up nicely.

I dont think Helfgott ever recovered from the nervous breakdown he experienced during his performance of the Rach 3. He still gigs to fairly full audiences internationally...but the personal damage was done long ago. Somehow, his musical genius still lives on somewhat, but I don't believe his personal quality of life is all that rich, and his musical career has suffered along with it.

He is an example of the ruin, perfectionistic expectations and demands inflinct on a student's self and well-being. I loathe 'old-school' teaching that honours the music (by means of 'bullying') far above honouring the human (the vessel through which the music journeys and is shared). Nurture the human, nurture the talent...and you have lasting music able to be shared for a lifetime through it's performer, not some human machine that burns out after a short-lived performance career, and spends the rest of its life requiring therapy.

Teaching should NEVER be abusive. Ever.

I agree. Some kids need a strict teacher, while others need a more gracious one. And by strict, I do not mean abusive, either emotionally or physically. Just demanding, holding the student accountable for practice and doing as they are told. Some need more nurturing and focus on the positive they are doing. I have had teachers in both ends of the spectrum, and I've enjoyed both styles for how it motivated me in different ways.

Sure, some kids need a strict teacher and some need a nicer one - but no kids, NO kids, need the kind of erratic psycho who slams the piano lid on their fingers (the way my teacher did), who throws their music across the room, who screams obscenities at them and calls them all sorts of names (the way my teacher did). For example, one of her students was slightly overweight; that, of course, brought on screams of "Fat pig! If you spent all that time practicing instead of eating, you'd actually be able to play!" This is not being "demanding" - this is being psychotic. It has nothing to do with wanting the student to learn. My mother had to come with me to the lessons to protect me. And yes, I am sure the teacher was passing on her own teacher's methods - abuse goes in cycles. (to be fair to the teacher in question, she did praise me 4 times in the 4 years I studied with her...)

And yes - life is not always kind, supportive, fun, and easy. So why add to the misery? Why make a miserable experience where none need to exist? I was a talented kid. I loved music, and still do. Music-making has always been a joy and a pleasure for me, despite anything she could do to me. I would have played the piano, and set high standards for myself, even without any kind of teacher. Why do this to someone like me, or to any kid at all? The more I think about it, the more unnecessary it seems.

Also, consider this: this abuse colored my perceptions, and my parents' perception, of what the world of professional music-making was like. My parents had no contact with the world of music. They are not musicians, and they didn't know any musicians. And their view of what a professional musician was like was the screaming psycho at the music school. Of course they didn't want me to become a musician - how could any parent want their child to be subjected to screaming psychos for the entirety of their professional life?

Maybe I've missed something, but is anyone actually saying any kids do need this kind of teacher? Some people are advocating being strict where necessary, but I don't think anyone's idea of strict in this thread includes anything like the things like you describe.

In other words, I'm not sure you need to try and convince us - we already agree .

Bingo. Only strawmen to fight here.

Those were my words. You have lifted them out of context and responded to them in a way that totally misrepresents my thoughts.

Fixed it for you

I appreciate that, Sal. Anyone who knows me even a little bit knows that I am totally opposed to bullying, abuse, cruelty of any kind.

If anything, I go too far in the other direction, always questioning whether or not my assumptions about what is good or bad for my students is just my ego speaking.

I am reluctant to be hard for any reason, but I do believe the comes a time when you have to tell people, for instance, that playing the piano takes some amount of dedication, planning, etc.

I had two students today who averaged 11 minutes a day last week. Back to back students.

I hardly think I was abusive when I told both that continuing in this manner would not lead to anything but failure.

How true! I was bullied by my 4th grade teacher! It wouldn't surprise me if she were a closet nazi, too. :rolleyes:

Well, let's assume that the student wasn't lying (I think most kids have a hard time lying about their practice when asked directly...many of them "fess up" when I ask). Could it be that she was nervous having an observer there, or at the very least, distracted? While I don't think it was a bad thing for you to be there, the teacher should take that into account and be a little more gracious of mistakes as a result. And then sometimes the child is tired, having a bad day, problems at home, who knows? All these things can break down even the best of practice habits. It is up to the teacher to discover why it was difficult and find a solution to help the child figure it out. And then there are some days you just let go and chalk up to "one of those days".