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a necessary evil for me. I'm of the 'I do and I understand school'

I was once totally screwed up by a teacher who insisted I was tense (which was true) but had ideas that I later found out were just plain wrong.

Other members of the faculty remained silent. It's a lot like doctors not speaking out against other doctors.

I didn't realize what was going on until I finally had enough and switched to another teacher who played very well and could instantly prove what he said by living it.

Ever since that time I have been totally turned off by words in regard to playing. It's the reason why I almost never participate in discussions of technique.

Two people who do the same thing often seem to be doing something different, because they have completely different ways of verbalizing.

Then two people who aren't even in the same universe agree with each other, because they *think* they are talking about the same thing.

This is one of the most dangerous things about this environment.

A good book on relaxation is:

Piano : a technical approach to relaxed control at the keyboard / Michael Houstoun.

Published in 1988

Michael Houstoun is a well known classical concert pianist in New Zealand. His website got an interesting keyboard design

http://www.michaelhoustoun.co.nz/

Hope the book will be of some use!

Your last post hit plenty on the nail there Gary. In education talk really is cheap. As for teachers standing up for each other...well.

allegro, it's very interesting Michael Houstoun had FD. So many musicians are unaware of it. I'll explore his site more.

Can't say more about the teacher who was so harmful for two reasons. First, he is famous (for other reasons). Second, he was (and no doubt still is) a kind man.

But what he did to me scared the h*** out of me. If he had been a bully, a dictator, I would have fought back. But his way of teaching involved a combination of bogus ideas and a belief in psychology, so his answer to my confusion was to suggest that I "needed help".

So when I finally realized that things were wrong and changed teachers, the one professor I most respected said: "The only question I have is—what took you so long?"

It did not occur to me until later that I should have said: "Why the **** did you stand by and say NOTHING while I was being damaged by this guy?"

And that's when I learned that faculty are very reluctant to criticize each other, at least in some cases.

He taught something called "drop and flex". I'm sure there are books about it.

That's when I learned how easy it is for people who don't know what they are doing to *increase* unnecessary tension by insisting on unnecessary movement.

The problem is that in the "world of piano" people can make outrageous claims with absolutely no proof, then it is assumed that pianist A plays faster or louder or with "better tone" than pianist B because of all sorts of weird movements that have *nothing* to do with the results.

What happens? In the end people look at Glenn Gould and assume that his weirdness was the *reason* he played so well. If we say that he played so well *in spite* of his weirdness (referring to insane physical habits), people will still think that his ticks and contortions at least contributed to his "amazing sound".

I am curious if teachers are interested in some other aspects of tension vs. relaxation addressed - namely what relaxation isn't. It is possible to train yourself into a "relaxation" that amounts to something akin to overall limpness or an all pervasive lack of tension. I would not be surprised if what has happened in the violin world also exists in the world of piano and other instruments. Over there, there is one movement under a certain name that bases itself on such relaxation -- some instrumentalists have been left seething with anger after almost having their careers ruined by advanced teachers pushing this kind of total relaxation.

The conclusion was that what we want is to have the right balance, the suppleness of the gymnast who does not have a limp body, but one that knows where and when to direct its energy. There is, and must be, a certain amount of "tension" in the muscles.

Having been caught out by this myself, I almost fear the word "relax". Surely there must be something else or in addition.

Another thought: Are there other factors that can cause tension? Lack of knowledge leading to indecisiveness, for example. If you don't know which way the fingers should go, so that they are ready to go either direction, or all directions at once, that will create enormous tension. Insufficient knowledge or guidance, or a wrong mentality wanting to do everything at once, would be the source of tension. Addressing tension, in that case, would simply give our multitasking individual still another task to add on top of everything else. Can there be other things that indirectly cause tension, such as the one in this example?

Another student feedback, if I may, is that anything negative that is mentioned can actually subconsciously become a goal. "Don't think about a pink elephant." - you can do nothing but think about pink elephants after that! In the same way, if a teacher tells me not to be tense, I may carry the image of tension with me when I practise. If I am told I have a "problem with tension" it is a thousand times worse. If, however, I am told a specific thing to aim for, then my attention goes toward that thing, and the tension will resolve itself because I'm doing something else. "Relax your shoulders" is good. If I, as a student, complain about tension in my shoulders, "Your slumping posture is forcing you to raise your arms. Remember to sit straight, as you already know how to do, and the problem will be gone." would be a positive and specific advice which I would find helpful.

Sh*t, I do "drop and flop". I hope I'm not making outrageous claims!

The point is that "drop and flop" means nothing to me, and should mean nothing to anyone one else, without seeing you *do* it.

I have only seen you play a bit, but my impression is that you use minimum movement, or an economy of momement. And already we are in danger of misunderstanding each other.

For instance, when you played the Ab Chopin Etude (never can remember opus numbers), it appeared to me that you were exaggerating a concept, to make a point. I'm not sure. Perhaps that the fingers can be much flatter than most people assume, and still do something that is rather natural.

But this gets into the whole problem of the *purpose* of a demonstration. In this case your demonstration.

I may be totally on the wrong track.

Thank you for watching and yes, that was illustrating a point. I now play it with naturally curved fingers as it's more responsive. The black note, on the other hand, I do totally flat. But enough about me...

Oh, I get you - I demonstrate drop and flop only as a last resort. The student can initial have a 100% quiet hand on the keys without copying me. That's the end position or 'flop'. The student can also have their hand hanging from their wrist without me showing them - that's the initial position for 'drop'. They are then able to stiffen from fingertip to wrist for the millisecond it takes for key depression - again without my illustration. And so voila! A caveat though - we all pretend to be puppy dogs sitting up begging. I do that with them so they don't feel silly.

Yes. And it doesn't even have to be negative.

If I, as a teacher, mention something to you that you don't need, and you assume that it is important, you may attempt to absorb something that is absolutely harmful.

This is what I meant when I said that people tend to overdo anything.

Trying to guide students to make the right physical movements for *them* is incredibly tricky.

For instance, right now I have a student who started playing everything disconnected. I was not sure about letting this go on. My gut was not to stop it, but I don't always obey my gut feelings.

So I mentioned that it really is necessary to connect the notes.

Then watched this student ruin everything.

Fortunately, I was able to say, "Forget about it. Just play. We'll worry about this later."

And a bit later the notes started "connecting themselves". It was part of a process. The moment I tried to introduce the concept of legato, before it was just the right time for this particular student, the whole hand tensed, the fingers looked all wrong, the wrist locked.

I had to "back away" and look at things differently. How many times are keys actually struck in an at least someone detached manner, for any of a zillion reasons? What about getting the concept of "finger staccato", perhaps a misnomer, but definitely something that happens.

What if insisting on legato, as a default, not only blocked out the other (a natural staccato technique, already there), but also added unnecessary tension in a way that I couldn't even get rid of later?

These are the kinds of decisions that a good teacher has to make, on instinct, and quickly.

Now? Next week? Leave it for next month? Or just watch, do nothing, and see if it comes naturally?

I'm convinced the average teacher does immense damage by attempting to micro-manage every tiny movement, complete with all sorts of subtle wrist movements and elbow movements and rotations and a thousand other things, until students' own natural development is so warped that it never get back on track fully.

I think you're right. If not immense damage then at least lots of unnecessary trouble.

And keystring - you said:
[quote]Having been caught out by this myself, I almost fear the word "relax". Surely there must be something else or in addition.

How about "freedom" instead of "relaxation"?

But that's interesting. I had to give myself permission to play with fingers as straight or as flat as would feel completely comfortable, even if doing so appeared to be insanely exaggerated. This was temporary.

I needed this because I had been lead to grip or grasp or lock up in a million ways.

The moment I allowed myself to play with straight fingers in a manner that I had actually seen a couple famous players use, I discovered that I only needed to use them in this straighter position when playing finger work that demands great power and not too much speed.

For instance, if I play a B major scale forte, at perhaps 50 to 70% speed (mine), my fingers want to be fairly flat, although the curve as they "come in". It's a natural movement for me. If I play the same scale mf and close to as fast as I am able, I have a gentle curve to the fingers (or it appears that way) because my fingers are starting much closer to the keys.

If I take that same scale and attempt to go at maximum speed, without unnecessary tension, p or pp, more curvature. I'm not sure the curvature is actually changing so far as what the fingers do *after* they make contact with the keys.

For a C scale, very fast, soft, my fingers seems to be as curved as much anyone else's. So if I practice such scales more slowly, with more motion, loud (or fairly so), the fingers appear to be straighter only because I am introducing more motion, just for ease.

And that is at least what I *think* I see when I view fine players, in videos, playing music I play myself. So if my description sounds like something weird, again it is the word problem, and this environment.

(I observed that as I played faster and lighter, my fingers *appeared* to curve more simply because they started on or close to the keys. And then I started to see that this is what most pianists appear to do, at least to some extent.)

For my students I simply explain that our fingers adapt, constantly, to the contour of each succession of notes we play, in a million ways. If we attempt to monitor them in a way that forces them into a particular shape, we usually end up with something that is no longer instinctive. And that our hands make each of us find different solutions.

My fingers are very stiff in the way the move up and down, which means several things. First, they never collapse. No double-joints, nor problems with a collapsing 5th finger on octaves, and so on. And my finger tips are slim enough so that they fit very easily between black notes. My fingers open up very easily, large stretches between fingers.

So if I attempt to lift my fingers as some teach, my fingers immediately cramp. One of my best students had fingers that were quite curved, and totally natural that way. Very different from mine.

That one idea, letting my fingers "stretch" as I "lifted them" totally unlocked everything. The same idea would likely completely destroy someone else. I've never used it for a student.

It was the thing I was missing. Or one of the keys. I'm not even sure anyone could have told me that.

Easily said Gary . To explain what you are doing you need to speak anatomically. Flat finger technique uses the intrinsic muscles of the hand to a much greater extent than natural. Are you the trumpeter? It's the same muscles the players who play on the proximal phalange use. I for one haven't played a Bb scale whether pp or FF for many years.

Possibly - How about direction, as in directing, as well as sense of direction, knowing "how to"?

Freedom's just another word...

My simplistic comment is that you can also see the tension coming when you look at the students face: A student, 8 years old, 2nd year of study, this week pursed her lips and pinched her eyes partially shut and angled forward to be closer to the keyboard. She does wear glasses, but this intensity was because after preparing hands alone, we went to hands together, very slowly.

In another song which she knows very well that is faster and has accents, she started allowing her shoulders to rise to ear level in anticipation of the accents.

It really is helpful to watch the student execute her moves, and you do hear it in the sounds at the piano too, but my point is that you can see it just before it happens in the face and shoulders.

In correcting these things, first of all the student must gain awareness that she is doing it. I hope she has lots of discoveries in her practice this week about her physical motions and whether they are unnecessary and problematic.

We've now opened this up for discussion in the future. What an opportunity to communicate about this with her since it's so real to her now. You have to catch them in the act and bring it to their attention. "Freeze!"

She laughed when we pointed out these strange mannerisms on the "freeze". Nothing like stopping to feel the tension, believe me, it doesn't feel good, and one would want to eliminate it from happening for sure.

If you pull your shoulders up around your ears, it totally immobolizes you and keeps you from playing the piano, it just isn't possible.

What a good example of what not to do!

For a four to eight year old? I'm not saying I am great at not over explaining, I try my best to be quiet and to say "look" or "listen" and "then it's your turn", I really think it is the best way. It helps though to have two pianos side by side, especially for the wee ones. Less talk, having them listen to tone and see "correct technique" works wonders. Of course, you need to be the best role model possible, because they pick up on everything.

Hope I'm not soundng great or anything (role model). I just do my best, showing good posture, balance, natural hand postion, good tone, etc...

This ultimately leads to no tension/minimal effort/maximum results which equals good technique. Which I agree, technique is very subjective. We all have our own ways and beliefs on the best way to play the piano.

Gary mentioned stretching fingers into black keys to play. I think... I'm reading quickly these posts so apologize if I am speaking incorrectly... but this is what I teach as well, once the basics of balance is learned.

Curved fingers... not good, imo.

Have to go... great thread!