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#953127 - 05/24/07 09:22 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2919
Loc: UK.
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
An “accident” by definition is an “unexpected event/mishap” ... [/b]
In that case the word 'accidental' seems to work quite nicely doesn't it?

If you are reading music in the key of C Major then any #'s or b's could be considered an unexpected event.

As far as I know accidentals were first used in the 9th Century. Gregorian chant was based on 6 note patterns (hexachords), one of which included the note Bb. F,G,A,Bb,C,D was known as the soft hexachord. All the accidental signs used today are apparently derived from the letter B.

I don't know when the word 'accidental' was first used to describe notes outside of the key signature.
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#953128 - 05/25/07 08:36 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?
fumblethumb Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 8
Loc: N. VA
...or shats?
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#953129 - 05/25/07 11:01 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3450
Loc: Western Canada
Technically wouldn't we have to have;

sharps
flats
naturals
AND double sharps (x) in the word?

Diane
__________________________________

Blues/Jazz/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher
_________________________
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Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


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#953130 - 05/25/07 11:37 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3450
Loc: Western Canada
So if we add "double sharps" we get,

"floublaturals" or "floublurarps" or "floubluraturalarps". \:D

Diane
_________________________________

Blues/Jazz/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher
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Diane
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#953131 - 05/26/07 01:46 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
So now I can be on the money ... and instead of saying “key signatures rich in the number of sharps and flats" I can blurt out
“key signatures rich in the number of "floubluraturalarps"... any takers?

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#953132 - 05/26/07 03:50 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2919
Loc: UK.
The only problem with that is that key signatures include either sharps OR flats. So your key signature is rich in sharps or it is rich in flats. I imagine this is because they are two different things hence no collective noun. There is no collective noun for chalk and cheese.
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#953133 - 05/26/07 04:19 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Too true ... I've just made myself a toasted cheese and tomato snack ... left out the chalk
but added a dab of Mrs. Balls famous chutney ... delicious!! not long before the Springboks take on England at Bloemfontein.

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#953134 - 05/26/07 10:56 PM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?
Harmosis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 308
Loc: California
All jokes aside, the word is accidentals. Let's bring up your dictionary definition again:

“A sign indicating a
DEPARTURE FROM THE KEY SIGNATURE,
by the momentary raising or lowering of a note by means of a sharp, flat, double-sharp, double-flat or natural.”

If there were no key signature (or simply a "key signature" with no sharps or flats, if you like), you would have to write the accidentals, in the score (as departures from the current "key signature"), as composers did in the past. It was obviously quite tedious to be continually writing in the same accidentals, so it was decided to put them at the beginning of the piece as the key signature - the accidentals were given up front so everyone knew what they were at the start and played them accordingly. If other sharps or flats (or natural signs) were needed, they, of course, would have to be written in the score as they occured, since they obviously were not in the key signature. See? Sharps and flats' function as departures from the key signature does not preclude them from occuring in the key signature, so the term, accidentals, is the appropriate one when discussing them collectively, at least in the abstract.

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#953135 - 05/27/07 01:14 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3450
Loc: Western Canada
Did the "accidental" police just walk in
an we are all "under a Rest". \:D

Couldn't resist just one more joke. My apology!

Seriously, we all know that, but were just having a little fun! No harm intended.

Diane
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Blues/Jazz/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher
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#953136 - 05/27/07 03:30 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2919
Loc: UK.
Harmosis, whilst the majority of us would agree with your accurate description I feel you will have a hard time convincing btb. We have been here many times in the past. :rolleyes:
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#953137 - 05/27/07 06:33 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
It’s opportune to say a few kind words of thanks for the positive responses.

Kreisler for “There isn’t a standard word for sharps and flats. I think your professorial brigade is full of crap. The term accidentals often refers to symbols for sharps, flats, naturals, double sharps and double flats”.

Ragnhild for “fortegn”

8ude for “ a sign placed before a note indicating a chromatic alteration in pitch”.

Performing Yak for “a shift of sharps or flats”.

Chris H for “In th UK the collective term is flarps.”

After Harmosis’ wordy defence of everyday key signatures I couldn’t resist some thoughts “out of the box” ... and have included a diagram of the
repeating 6-line stave with NO FLARPS ... the numbering of the 12 basic keyboard notes avoids any alphabetic confusion.

web page

Who said the chat had gone FLAT?

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#953138 - 05/27/07 11:43 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?
Harmosis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 308
Loc: California
 Quote:
After Harmosis’ wordy defence of everyday key signatures...
Any of those words get through? Does logic hold any weight for you? (BTW, you ain't seen wordy yet ;\) )

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#953139 - 06/14/07 05:27 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?
swingal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 1094
Loc: England
I have not understood a single post on this topic.

Perhaps that is because I just sit down and play the notes and chords and scales and runs that sound correct from my subconscious memory recall.

I do not attempt Classical pieces but jazz and swing which I enjoy.

I think all you proper pianists are very clever and it's all a mystery to me.

Alan (swingal)

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#953140 - 06/14/07 05:52 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?
jwjazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 278
Loc: New York
btb - where did that 6 (or 7) line staff come from? I've never seen anything like it.
Has anybody actaully trained themselves to read that? What advantages would it have over traditional 5-line staves? I am imagining some type of highly chromatic or atonal music.
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#953141 - 06/14/07 07:43 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Hi jazz,
You want to know about the origins of the chromatic (repeating 6-line) stave.

You mightn’t realize it but the original keyboard stave consisted of 11 lines ... to cover a nominal range of notes between the two hands ... however the Grand Staff proved impossible to snap read ... and so was split into two more user-friendly 5-line staves ... with Middle C perched on a separate little horizontal line between the two staves.

Which left us with a strange anomaly ... Middle C was ON A LINE ... whereas the octaves above and below placed C BETWEEN LINES ... not very scientific!

The repeating 6-line stave shown below eliminates the above contradiction ...
and incidentally says goodbye to the sight-reading drag of accidentals and changing key signatures.

web page

You might like to have a look at the web address of the MNMA ...http://www.mnma.org/ ... a group of passionate musicians have founded their
efforts towards an improved notation based on the chromatic stave.

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#953142 - 06/16/07 02:48 PM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?
Cultor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/25/07
Posts: 342
Loc: BsAs
 Quote:
Originally posted by Diane W:
Technically wouldn't we have to have;

sharps
flats
naturals
AND double sharps (x) in the word?

Diane
__________________________________

Blues/Jazz/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher [/b]
Diane: beware of triple (xxx) in the word.

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#953143 - 06/18/07 10:12 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3450
Loc: Western Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cultor:

Diane: beware of triple (xxx) in the word[/b]
____________________________________

Cultor,

Cute, but just to clarify that there are no accidentals that would be xxx. Example, there is no such thing as a Cxxx. There is, however, a Cx, which is C##, which untechnically speaking would be a D.

Hope this doesn't confuse the issue further!

And back to the initial question. I still think, "floubluraturalarps" is a great new word for;

1. sharps
2. flats
3. naturals
4. AND x!

And the Italian translation would be? Let's not go there!

Diane
Blues/Jazz/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher
_________________________
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