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#953891 - 05/05/08 11:30 PM Keeping things in perspective...
Ken Knapp Offline



Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 2246
Loc: Pennsylvania
Lately there have been some posts within a couple topics which have generated moderator reports. Quite frankly, I've had to give things some serious thought before deciding an appropriate response.

I think it's time to post a reminder about what this forum is all about.

When Frank created it, he stated its purpose right at the top for all to see:
"For Piano Teacher's. Discuss lesson plans, teaching techniques, handling students, fees, methods, books, etc."

That is the primary purpose of the forum. It's also acceptable for students to ask questions of the teachers who participate in the forum.

However, it's not a place for non-teachers to debate issues with the teachers. Doing so creates an atmosphere that takes away from the intent of this forum.

Piano teachers are professionals who give of their time, energy, and hearts for, IMHO, not nearly enough in pay or thanks. Let's try to keep this a place where they can feel free to exchange thoughts and ideas.

Ken
_________________________
Ken

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#953892 - 05/05/08 11:59 PM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
keystring Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11724
Loc: Canada
Ken, in that light I hve created an experimental thread. On the surface it is only about the "performance issue" that cropped up in the teacher thread that brought your concern to the surface. There is more to it, however.

Currently we have a section for students to talk to each other. We have another section for teachers to talk to each other. We do not have a section for students and teachers to talk to each other, and in particular, in regards to issues involving the relationship of students and teachesr. The "performance issue" is about just that.

Therefore I created a thread for the "performance issue" but created it specifically for teachers and students to talk to each other about this issue. The teachers who participate know that is the purpose, and are there voluntarily rather than being held hostage by an influx of students/adults. The non-teachers will also go voluntarily for this purpose. Thus everyone attending the teacher / non-teacher dialogue is there by choice and mutual agreement. If this works out, maybe it can become a model idea.

I believe that these forums are an opportunity for two groups who usually only interact on a formal basis to begin to understand each other better. But this should be by choice. There is no area set aside for the place where teachers and non-teachers can discuss areas that cross into both rhealms, or their interrelationship. If there were such an area or a thread for that purpose, then those interested in participating could do so. There might be less of a feeling of invasion because if an adult student wanted to discuss an issue with teachers, or vice versa, there would be a place to which both parties could be invited. That's my thought.

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#953893 - 05/06/08 12:06 AM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
Akira Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/27/07
Posts: 1645
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
One suggestion I would like to make, Ken, is to pin this 'reminder' to the top of the forums. If not, within a few months time, it will sink into oblivion, only to have new students come to post unaware of it.

I can completely understand that the teachers want, need and should have a place to call home. I know there are several students, including myself, who post here regularly. When I first started posting here, I was not sure if I'd be welcomed because I was on the opposite side of the fence (student), so to speak. There was no indication that students weren't allowed to post here or weren't welcomed.

I think having students share their perspectives with teachers actually creates better[/b] teachers. When one is able to look at a situation from different angles and perspectives, it gives them food for thought and allows them to see situations with greater clarity. Hopefully, better decisions can be made for the future and teaching mistakes identified by the sharing of these experiences.

I know I have helped teachers here by sharing my student perspectives, and in turn, they have helped me. Both sides benefit.

I think its important to realize that it is also a double-edged sword. Differing perspectives, while immensely helpful and needed, can also lead to conflict, anger and other hard feelings. It is possible that some teachers in fact do not like us students posting here (but I suspect, they'll never admit it). On the other hand, its equally possible other teachers do.

If you tell students they are welcomed here, but to not post comments that may disagree with the point of view of a teacher, some of them may feel like its a conditional welcome (censorship) and they are really not free to say what's on their mind.

Its a tough situation to be in and I can't say I have an easy answer.

For the record, I do like all the teachers that regularly post here. I've gained so much from you and hope I continue to be welcomed here. I sincerely hope this post was not inflammatory, but think its important to deal with the issue honestly, even though it may not be pleasant to hear.

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#953894 - 05/06/08 12:15 AM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
keystring Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11724
Loc: Canada
Akira, (anyone?) what do you think of the concept of a thread or a place where those teachers and students/parents who want to discuss particular student-teacher types of issues can do so, but will be doing so because they want to be there doing that?

I don't know if it makes anyone "better", but any time when you don't wonder about the other but have new insight it is easier to interact more effecitively. Ideally it should be a place where participants are there because that is their choice. A thread or even new section devoted to just that.

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#953895 - 05/06/08 01:30 AM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5510
Loc: Orange County, CA
Ken--

I know which posts ticked Betty off. But I do think it's okay if non-teachers give us some of their ideas. I welcome different perspectives on issues important to us teachers. Before Diane's last thread, I had no idea how much students preferred the freedom to choose where to perform, and how my attempt at limiting performance opportunities caused such negative responses. It's a learning experience for me as well.

Maybe we can all agree to disagree, just as long as we use professional, tactful language and do not resort to sarcastic insults or insinuations.

AZN
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#953896 - 05/06/08 01:46 AM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5943
Loc: Down Under
In the AB forum there's a huge thread "for those totally devoted to Chopin" - I think it runs to over 140 pages. Were you thinking of a specifically marked thread like that? Sort of "Student/Teacher Dialogue" or something? Perhaps that would work. Then those who feel they were being grilled unnecessarily would be able to just give it a miss.

I'm in two minds about it. In the teachers' forum a teacher really has to be able to come in and let off steam about some student without being hauled over the coals, don't you think? And I can see that some people were feeling like they had their backs to the wall in their own house (so to speak). I personally didn't feel that way, but then I didn't really contribute to the initial debate. I enjoy talking to adult students (it's why I hang around the AB forum from time to time, though I don't post much) because I find it helpful to know where some of them, at least, are coming from. I'd probably pop into such a thread to see what was being discussed, at any rate.

Can I just mention, too, that the IPIBAH thread generated quite a bit of anti-teacher sentiment on the AB forum, and teachers didn't go over there and lecture them. I think we realise that everyone has to be able to let off steam amongst their fellows from time to time. And so do the teachers.

I hope nothing I've said offends anyone \:\) . I always hit the preview post button first and read what I write as if I'm someone else (not just checking my tags are right), but it's not foolproof.
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#953897 - 05/06/08 01:58 AM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Though I can think of some pretty disagreeable customers in this last year, speaking as a teacher, I feel it would be a shame to discourage any group from posting. The kitchen has a door. And thank you Ken.
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#953898 - 05/06/08 07:21 AM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
Piano*Dad Offline
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Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10385
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
 Quote:
Originally posted by AZNpiano:
Ken--

I know which posts ticked Betty off.
AZN [/b]
A little presumptuous there, AZN .... \:D

yeah, you're probably right.


I understand Ken's intervention, but I would like to add that if we take Frank's initial description of the forum literally, then many of us who post here regularly should never offer our experiences or views. I think that would be a shame ..... silly even. In any case, much like the Pirates' Code, I think these initial descriptions of what a forum is about are just guidelines, if you will, more than rules. They get the forum going, but don't (or shouldn't) necessarily be thought of as intellectual straightjackets for all time.

A discussion of what credentialing, for instance, means to a particular teachers' organization seems quite appropriate to a teachers forum, and if the only people who can offer an opinion are teachers then you lose all perspectives and opinion but one.
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#953899 - 05/06/08 07:35 AM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11724
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
In the AB forum there's a huge thread "for those totally devoted to Chopin" - I think it runs to over 140 pages. Were you thinking of a specifically marked thread like that? Sort of "Student/Teacher Dialogue" or something?
Yes, Currawong, I am thinking of just that. It could even be a new segment in the form, such as the segments we have now: Piano, Pianist, Non-classical (I forget the specific name), Teacher, Adult Beginner (which is a misnomer to begin with) .... Teacher/Non-Teacher stomping grounds.

I have a project due in an hour so I can't linger. More later.

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#953900 - 05/06/08 09:37 AM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17786
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Knapp:
However, it's not a place for non-teachers to debate issues with the teachers. Doing so creates an atmosphere that takes away from the intent of this forum.[/b]
Ken, I am not sure I understand the implications of this statement. Are you saying that only teachers should be posting on the teacher's forum, unless a student has a specific question regarding the playing or teaching of piano?

If that was your intent here, I will have to say I am troubled by it. None of the other forums have restrictions about who can post and/or what about. And the other forums seem to do a pretty good job of "policing" the joint and making sure that inappropriate posts are dealt with.

I also think that such a policy, if rigorously enforced, would have unfortunate consequences for the teacher's forum. Part of what makes a forum vibrant is one where there is lots of posting and dialogue. I personally got a lot out of reading the exchange between teachers and students and discovering differences in perspective. I like to think that the teachers similarly benefit from seeing the student's point of view. To ban students from posting their reactions to various issues would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, imo.

--Monica, who doesn't like censorship and is feeling not at all good about this turn of events. \:\(
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#953901 - 05/06/08 09:38 AM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7393
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Piano*Dad wrote:
 Quote:
A discussion of what credentialing, for instance, means to a particular teachers' organization seems quite appropriate to a teachers forum, and if the only people who can offer an opinion are teachers then you lose all perspectives and opinion but one.
Where ever three teachers gather, there will be four opinions!

Seriously, this subject is hotly debated in teacher's circles, and please believe me, there is not one uniform opinion on the subject.

Never the less, I've always enjoyed posts from students and parents which were germaine to the topic and were not written in an accusatorial style. Your's, Akira's, Keystring's, just to name a few of many excellent posters, have been more than welcome, and I hope will continue.

John
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#953902 - 05/06/08 09:57 AM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17786
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
...and if we adopt a rule that only teachers can post in this forum, we'd lose such posts as Cy's absolutely wonderful description of how the action of a piano works. \:\(

--Monica, who continues to believe that all that is (ever) needed is politeness and respect for differing opinions, not suppression of debate or dissension.
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#953903 - 05/06/08 10:03 AM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
Minaku Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 1226
Loc: Atlanta
I value the input of students and non-teachers in this forum. It provides a perspective that can get easily lost in the day-to-days of teaching.

However, opinions expressed must always be respectful, as this is our turf and our livelihood.
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#953904 - 05/06/08 10:12 AM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
keystring Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11724
Loc: Canada
Minaku, how do you feel about a separate area for the gray area where teachers and non-teachers cross, including interaction between the same? I'm thinking both for the purpose of serving that purpose, and also for uncluttering the other discussion forums of this element when it becomes too intense or specific in that direction?

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#953905 - 05/06/08 10:12 AM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Minaku:
... as this is our turf and our livelihood. [/b]
There ya go again! Why are piano teachers so possessive?
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#953906 - 05/06/08 11:04 AM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
Minaku Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 1226
Loc: Atlanta
I welcome the posts in the piano teachers' forum because not only are we here to discuss the craft and the agony, we're here to answer what questions we may. So I don't see a need to create a new forum for gray area discussion. MTNA and ethics discussions belong right here.

Keyboardklutz, I don't presume to go into the AB forum and regale them with stories about how fast I progressed or how I did this or how I did that. It's bound to raise hackles. Likewise you don't go into someone else's house, find a glass, and pour yourself some orange juice uninvited. Here in the teachers' forum the door is open, but insult the owner of the house and the guest is like to find himself on his rump on the front stoop. It's not that we're possessive. It's necessary for us to defend what we do. Piano teachers are open to criticism from all sides. People without the slightest knowledge of what we do can opine away without fear of repercussion, and this is in daily living.

Piano Forums has provided us with a place to roost and talk to other teachers. Actually, you know what, Keyboardklutz? The reason why I'm possessive is because this forum clearly states "Piano Teachers Forum" on top, and thus I feel strongly that as piano teachers we should defend our stronghold when its under assault.
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#953907 - 05/06/08 11:45 AM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Actually I meant territorial. But, I suppose, overly defensive as well. Defend our stronghold? Isn't this the 'keeping things in perspective' thread?
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#953908 - 05/06/08 11:45 AM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
keystring Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11724
Loc: Canada
Minaku,
Two separate things exist. One involves everything that goes into playing music and learning to play music. It involves technique, musicianship, approaches, you name it. This is the body of things that we as students and/or musicians work with and/or learn and/or perfect. It is what you, as teachers try to teach.

You welcome questions from students and parents that have to do with what you are trying to teach. You are happy to answer our questions, guide us further, and maybe even learn from confusion at your answers in order to find a better way to impart your message. You have something to teach and you are happy if someone is interested in learning it.

The gray area is not that. Within the nature of teaching there is the fact that there is teacher, taught (student), and parent of taught. There is an interaction, and that interaction itself is the gray area. This is where frictions are coming. It is not all a matter of respect.

Part of the interaction between students and teachers is pedagogy, and without knowledge of that pedagogy it is difficult for a student to get a real picture of what is going on. A teacher may well be leading me along path A knowing that it will bring me to path C, but if he tried to explain path C now I would try to acquire it intellectually and my body and nervous system could not catch it that way, and I would get in my own way. There may be reason for the madness and I am not in a position to understand at this point. Trying to discuss or explain may be impossible for whatever reason.

Or .. the teachers are trying to wend their way through some kind of teaching problematics, or working at their own reactions to common events (they're human) and while concentrating on such do not have the energy to explain the whole workings to the student population.

At the same time there could be any number of things that could be working better, or that could use better understanding, in that vast area of teacher-student-parent interaction. It could be that some things are festering because they are never addressed. Or it could be that they need a simple change of attitude to go away.

I see teachers wondering about students and how they think, coming to common conclusions and then acting on them: ditto for students about teachers.

I see expectations, disappointed expectations.

There is an area that involves the interaction between students and teachers in and of itself. The "students shall not perform without a teacher's permission" idea, the reaction to the unacknowledged performance in another teacher's studio all carry within them a component of both student and teacher behaviour, with one of the parties not understanding the mindset of the other.

Discussions ensue that have this interaction uncomfortably in the middle.
What I am envisioning is a place where that component, when it arises, can be discussed within that framework of students and teachers understanding each other better, exploring interactions, reactions, expectations, assumptions and counter assumptions.

My reason for envisioning such a separate place is that the participants would be there by choice. A teacher taking part would be there because he or she wants to, and ditto for parents and students. At the same time, this component, which sits extremely uncomfortably in both the teacher forum and in grumblings in the AB forum could be taken out of those places, and brought someplace where they could be worked out and bear positive fruit .......... or buried as "hm, we were wrong about that one."

Traditionally a teacher has his studio, the student comes to the studio, the two interact within those roles and then part ways for a week. Each builds up impressions over the years and a lot of it goes well. But there never has been a chance for them to meet and share impressions. That is a reality on the Internet and we are pretending that it doesn't exist. It's like the teacher's lounge or lunch room has sprouted a PA system and glass walls, and the student dorm likewise. Things come out that have never come out. This could turn into a good thing. To be honest, when I was in the teacher's lounge and had to vent, regroup, or talk about thorny issues, I did not want parents or students to be there. Parent and student input did help me improve my teaching and become more effective, however.

I don't know whether I've managed to present my thoughts or whether they are valid. I created that one thread which beings with the word "diversion" for that purpose and to see what would happen with it. That was the idea.

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#953909 - 05/06/08 12:09 PM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7393
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
I like the teachers' lounge analogy very much. In a way, this particular forum is our teachers' louge. We need a place where we're free to discuss mutual problems without the "problem" adding even more to the problem.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#953910 - 05/06/08 03:39 PM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11724
Loc: Canada
How about my idea of having a place for the gray area which roughly involves student-teacher questions within that ...... simply becuase it's coming up again and again with no comfortable place and and in part unwilling participants.

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#953911 - 05/06/08 03:47 PM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
Piano*Dad Offline
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Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10385
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
I just don't see the system as in any way broken. Does anyone really want moderators looking into the background of every poster to make sure they are posting in their correct ghetto?
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#953912 - 05/06/08 04:12 PM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11724
Loc: Canada
Piano*Dad, a problem is perceived in attempts of discussions on teacher-student matters, teachers' ways of dealing with us - what I have tried to define long windedly as "the gray area". That kind of discussion in general is not wanted on the teacher's lounge. There seems to be a need for such a discussion by some. I also see possible benefits. This is why I am suggesting a place for this. We could simply create threads for the side issues, such as I have done with the "performance issue". Immediately when discussing student-teacher relationships or policies, you wonder whether it belongs in the student forum or the teacher forum. What if there were a "both" forum?

I'm going in circles.

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#953913 - 05/06/08 06:19 PM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
saerra Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 842
Loc: Atlanta, GA
 Quote:
Originally posted by John v.d.Brook:
I like the teachers' lounge analogy very much. In a way, this particular forum is our teachers' louge. We need a place where we're free to discuss mutual problems without the "problem" adding even more to the problem. [/b]
I'm not sure that "forum as teacher's lounge" is the best analogy though. Keystring had followed up with - "It's like the teacher's lounge or lunch room has sprouted a PA system and glass walls..." which seems much more accurate...

Even if everyone agrees that the teacher's need a private place to vent/problem-solve - this isn't a private place, by definition. Even if all of the non-students carefully stay away, it's an open forum - not only are WE reading, but who knows who else is reading (but not posting). The students (or parents of said students) of any of the teachers here could be reading these posts.

In a real teacher's lounge, there is (hopefully) very little chance that a student or parent will overhear you. Here, it seems nearly inevitable that a non-teacher is going to stumble in at some point.

This means, you guys are kind of representative of your profession as a whole here. It *feels* very private and comfortable, but it's still very public.

And, I only bring it up because - and I'm trying to be as sensitive and delicate as I can here - some of the recent threads have really... affected my views of teachers as a whole in a less than positive way. And yes, I DO recognize that I'm reading a forum geared towards teachers, but... some ways that I've seen teachers react has really surprised me. And, I'm sorry if that seems harsh or overly critical and inappropriate, but it's my honest reaction - and I think I can't be so abnormal that I'm the only one...

I'm not just referring to the recent stuff that's happened - I've had a hard time with nerves in piano lessons - and at least part of that was thinking that if I wasn't "good" enough, I'd get kicked out. Yes, some of it is my own perfectionist tendencies... but it seems like I also read a few posts asking, "how do I get rid of this annoying student?" (!) I can't imagine if my teacher posted here and I saw that - I'd be livid and even more of a wreck than usual!

(And to be fair and clear, it's not you John, I was actually really impressed with you and Currawong for trying to calmly explain where you were coming from in the recital thread in a way that would make sense, rather than just defend a position. And I'm sure there were a few other responses that were helpful, that I just don't remember as vividly. But, I'm grateful to you both for sharing your views and experiences, so that I could better understand where everyone was coming from. And to me, this kind of "information sharing" much better represents how I imagine a good teacher reacting. Thank you both.)

I think asking non-teachers to stay away isn't the best solution... since the forum is open and readable, I suspect you're going to either a) have people forget and start posting again, and/or b) end up with upset people creating threads over in ABF to vent about the threads in the teachers forums. If there aren't many teachers replying on those threads, there won't really be much useful conversation/information - just venting and people feeding off each other getting more upset.

And - Keystring - I'm not completely following your idea - do you mean a whole new forum? My concern is that it wouldn't get used. If someone started a thread here, and a student wants to get feedback/clarification or discuss part of it - and that teacher didn't regularly read that forum, we'd be missing a vital component of the discussion, it would seem. It also feels a bit difficult to me, to be following one thread, but replying on another... Not trying to knock your idea, I'm just not sure I'm getting what you're intending...

Thanks for listening.

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#953914 - 05/06/08 06:37 PM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
piano_deb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 787
Loc: Memphis, TN
Keystring, my friend, while your heart is certainly in the right place, it may be that you're "going in circles" because a) people don’t have strong enough opinions to comment on your idea of a “both” forums, or b) they haven't had a enough time to think about it yet. This thread is, after all, less than a day old. Take a breather, hon. ;\)

For myself, I believe that students (and everyone else) should be able to engage fully with teachers (and everyone else) in this forum — in the same way that PW members are free to engage with one another on every other forum throughout the community. IMO, if a teacher does not want input from non-teachers on a given topic, then he/she can say so when starting the thread. I don’t recommend this as a standard action, but technicians have done so occasionally in the Tech Forum, and dealers have in the Piano Forum. (I bet the same thing has happened in the Pianists' Corner, but I wouldn't know ... I can't follow half those discussions and know that I have nothing to contribute, so I seldom visit.)

Over the past year, I followed many discussions in this forum with interest because I am curious about the teaching profession and its practitioners, I want to know what teachers here have to offer each other and students, and because — a key point for this conversation — I’ve always thought that my opinions, ideas and questions would be welcome if I felt I had something to contribute to the discussion.

I’m sorry to say that I no longer feel that way. This and other recent threads have highlighted what I have believed for some time: that more than one teacher here is irritated and annoyed when students try to add their own voice to these discussions. (I certainly didn’t appreciate the snide replies directed at me by one teacher in a recent topic here — or for the several comments made by other teachers who couldn’t fathom why students thought that they had a right to join the discussion. Perhaps I should just stay in my own little "ghetto," as P*D aptly used the term.)

Bottom line is this: This forum is either public, or it’s private. If it remains open, it’s a given that non-teachers are going to read and post here — and that some teachers are not going to like what some non-teachers have to say. Such difficulties occur in every online community — and let’s not forget that we all manage to survive the same in other PW forums. If a majority of teacher really do want this forum become a private lounge, however, then perhaps it’s time for Frank and Ken to just lock the place and issue passwords.
_________________________
Deborah
Charles Walter 1500
Happiness is a shiny red piano.

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#953915 - 05/06/08 06:44 PM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5943
Loc: Down Under
 Quote:
Originally posted by saerra:
Even if everyone agrees that the teacher's need a private place to vent/problem-solve - this isn't a private place, by definition. Even if all of the non-students carefully stay away, it's an open forum - not only are WE reading, but who knows who else is reading (but not posting). The students (or parents of said students) of any of the teachers here could be reading these posts.
In a real teacher's lounge, there is (hopefully) very little chance that a student or parent will overhear you. Here, it seems nearly inevitable that a non-teacher is going to stumble in at some point.
This means, you guys are kind of representative of your profession as a whole here. It *feels* very private and comfortable, but it's still very public.
[/b]
This is actually a very good point, and one I hadn't specifically thought much about before, obvious though it may seem after you've had it drawn to your attention \:\) . Letting off steam is one thing, but you still can't say here on a public forum what you might say privately to a colleague, and no amount of separate boards or threads will ensure that what you say is heard only by the people you wish to hear it. I think we all need to remember this. I certainly intend to. Thanks, saerra \:\) .
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#953916 - 05/06/08 06:44 PM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
Ken Knapp Offline



Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 2246
Loc: Pennsylvania
Wow! I get home from work and discover I'm going to censor and check badges at the door!!! \:D

Not!

Monica said it well - "all that is (ever) needed is politeness and respect for differing opinions, not suppression of debate or dissension." So did John v.d. Brook - "In a way, this particular forum is our teachers' lounge." As did Minaku - "However, opinions expressed must always be respectful, as this is our turf and our livelihood."

This forum has needed almost no moderating whatsoever over the past year and however many months I've been moderating. That's the way it should be. A couple of recent topics generated moderator reports and PM's that indicated to me that this friendly reminder was needed.

I think the teachers enjoy helping students who post here. I think they also enjoy people coming here and sharing experiences, good and bad. But I think we should always conduct ourselves as their guests. After all, to quote Frank himself in the initial post when the forum was created, "Piano Teachers, this forum is for you."

So teachers, am I off base?

Ken
_________________________
Ken

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#953917 - 05/06/08 06:50 PM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
Minaku Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 1226
Loc: Atlanta
No, you are right on, Ken. I approve of what you said wholeheartedly.
_________________________
Pianist and teacher with a 5'8" Baldwin R and Clavi CLP-230 at home.

New website up: http://www.studioplumpiano.com. Also on Twitter @QQitsMina

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#953918 - 05/06/08 06:54 PM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5943
Loc: Down Under
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Knapp:
So teachers, am I off base?
Ken [/b]
No, I think you're spot on
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#953919 - 05/06/08 07:29 PM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
Roger Ransom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1262
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
Interestingly enough, this exact same discussion occurs periodically in the Piano Technicians Forum. Someone gets a little upset over some 'outsider, there is some ranting for a few pages and it all eventually goes back to normal the way it was before.

I expect it's a pretty normal part of human discourse and tends to moderate itself in time.
_________________________
Laugh More
Yamaha G7 - Roland FP7

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#953920 - 05/06/08 07:37 PM Re: Keeping things in perspective...
tickler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Chicagoland
In my opinion, being respectful and courteous should be part of all the forums, not just this one.

In the PW environment, one part of being courteous is realizing that forum communications aren't always as accurate as we want them to be. There's no body language, or inflection. Most of us only know other posters via posts and messages. So it's easy to misunderstand someone's intent.

Another part is not over-reacting to others' posts. Most people that post are trying to be helpful, or offer a different opinion, or get advice on a problem. Venting is fine, but before we hit that "Add Reply" button, we need to calm down, re-read our posts and make sure it's something we want to say in public.


Just a student's opinion.
Mary
_________________________
Music should strike fire from the heart of man, and bring tears from the eyes of woman. -- Beethoven
1911 Steinway A-II (2007 Rebuild)

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