Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#955137 - 05/14/08 03:46 AM triads
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Here is a diagram of TRIADS of the Major Scale ... measured in WHOLE-TONES ...
triads I, IV, V and VIII Major
triads II, III and VI minor, and
triad VII diminished

Why as piano teachers do we make such a big thing with our Harmony studies about Triads and all those bumbling progressions ... I to V, V to I and IV ... when no classical composer worth his salt ever uses such a mousey 3.5 WT chord ...
Chopin prefers bold large interval chords contrasting with small.

That might have set the cat amongst the pigeons!

Top
(ad) My Music Staff
Check out the new way to manage your music studio
#955138 - 05/14/08 04:06 AM Re: triads
pianobuff Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 1580
Loc: Pacific Northwest
Well first you are talking Chopin, a romantic composer, but even he used triads, voicing them using the notes of the triad and yes, probaby adding tones such as 7ths, sus 4's ... etc... but they are there, those triads that is. They are the basis for the bigger chords.

So to understand those bigger chords we first need to understand the smaller ones.

You can by the way go up the scale building seventh chords on each degree, and perhaps Chopin, depending on the piece is using a minor key, this also changes things a bit, depending on what form of minor he may be building those chords from.

But seventh chords are built on triads, so that is why we teach triads first.
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher,
member MTNA and Piano Basics Foundation

Top
#955139 - 05/14/08 04:58 AM Re: triads
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2845
Loc: UK.
You have to learn to walk before you can run!
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

Top
#955140 - 05/14/08 08:50 AM Re: triads
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13759
Loc: Iowa City, IA
It was good enough for Mozart. Or do you consider the LH part of the C major sonata, K. 545, to be a "bumbling" progression?
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

Top
#955141 - 05/14/08 09:18 AM Re: triads
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11420
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
If you analyze most of the great music of western history (prior to 20th cent.), you will find that it mostly follows a I IV V I progression overall, or some combination of those triads. When I teach kids these chords along with their scales, then after they've been doing them a little while, I point out that they can use it to figure out an accompaniment for virtually any song. I teach them the blues progression which you can make up any number of accompaniment figures with the basis of those chords. This works for any rock/pop, jazz, or classical improvisation. btb, have you ever done Schenker analysis? I recall doing it back in undergrad school, and pretty much everything was boiled down to those major triads.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

Top
#955142 - 05/14/08 10:36 AM Re: triads
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Thanks chaps for the responses ... I fully share and understand from where Morodiene is coming ... ChrisH’s "walk before running" and Pianobuff’s faith in what we’ve been dealt ... but

From all accounts the triad sequence seems to have originated with an Austrian chappie call Fux who kicked it around from 1660-1741. His plodding music (largely a repetition of progressions) got him at 51 the Music Director at the Imperial Court ... at the age of 65 he published his Gradus ad Parnassum (which seemed to have impressed a few big wigs including Bach who had a copy of GaP) from which we get the triad concept.

Most young students seem to react to the triad sequence and the affinity between certain degrees of the scale (as preached in Harmony classes)
as a cut and dried prescription to become an instant composer ... little realizing that the 3.5 WT triads are designed to terminate music ... to bring it to a restful end with IV, V and I ... but totally lacking the spice to get
the music to rock.

That’s why Chopin, Beethoven, Mozart and all the other big cheeses mostly use bold simple chords (mostly big) and shy away from 3.5 WT triads.

Top
#955143 - 05/14/08 10:53 AM Re: triads
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2845
Loc: UK.
Do you mean making the harmony itself more complex or just treating the basic triad in a more interesting way?

eg. The final movt. of the 'Moonlight' sonata. Those opening arpeggions are all based on the triad of C# minor. It's what Beethoven does with it that makes it special.
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

Top
#955144 - 05/14/08 11:35 AM Re: triads
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
We’re talking triads here ChrisH ... 3 notes clunked together.

In the Beethoven 27-2 Presto agitato, you will struggle to find a single triad measuring 3.5 WT ... this is the whole point ... Beethoven bangs away with octaves, big chords but juicily spices the 3rd movement with very small chords.

Why not see the triads and all the blithering inversions ... (which can so confuse the small fry when transposing to another key) ... merely as an antiquated observation by the Austrian gent ... and that good composition should include big chords 4 WT+ ... but interspersed with a balance of small chords.

Top
#955145 - 05/14/08 12:20 PM Re: triads
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11420
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
I don't think that anyone says that playing simple 3-note chords is necessarily good composition...or bad for that matter. I use even two-note chords (scale degrees 1 & 5 for example) for my beginner students when composing. What's wrong with that? It is a way for them to make simple harmony. As they are able to play more complicated pieces, then their writing reflects that. But those big chords are based on the simple 3-note version, and so they are learning something upon which they can later build.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

Top
#955146 - 05/15/08 02:00 AM Re: triads
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Hi Morodiene,
We’re not trying to bend ears ... merely pointing out that our piano teacher’s triads blab is DATED (a la JJFux).

The most powerful factor of any chord is the overall interval ... big is better ... any inner third note in a chord acts as an adjective to the noun.

If only your encouraging comment "upon which they can later build" were to be realized ... but after the triad blitz our students reach saturation with the limited range of triads and burn out.

For what it’s worth Beethoven’s Moonlight (first movt.) relies almost entirely on 2-note chords.

Thought you’d like to see what the Austrian geezer JJFux looked like.

web page

Top
#955147 - 05/15/08 02:17 AM Re: triads
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5899
Loc: Down Under
[QUOTE]Originally posted by btb:
... but after the triad blitz our students reach saturation with the limited range of triads and burn out. [/b]

Yours might. I don't find mine do.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#955148 - 05/15/08 02:32 AM Re: triads
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5899
Loc: Down Under
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
For what it’s worth Beethoven’s Moonlight (first movt.) relies almost entirely on 2-note chords.[/b]
If you mean that there are a number of places where there are only two notes playing at a time (allowing for octave doubling), then you're correct, although "almost entirely" is pushing it a bit.

If you're trying to say that it's not based on triads, then I think there are some things about harmony you haven't understood.

Or perhaps you mean that you have the melody line, the bass line - and all those broken triads in the middle aren't important. In which case I'd disagree.

But as usual, I'm not really sure what you mean \:\) .
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#955149 - 05/15/08 04:18 AM Re: triads
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Sorry to appear obscure currawong.

We’re all well versed in the degrees of scale when putting over the chat on Harmony together with the harmonious flow of triads using every alternate degree note ... not to mention the particular prominence of keynote, subdominant, dominant and tonic ... but all this is old hat ... the error of our ways IMHO is our inability to put the student on the progressive path to composing like Mozart ... we pull the
carpet on further compositional instruction once we’ve done our thing with the tired triad bleat.

I wouldn’t want to get shirty over minutiae ... but bashing two notes with the same hand is my understanding of a 2-note chord ... according to my count Beethoven’s Moonlight contains 192 ("mostly") such chords of which 13 contain an inner note to LH octaves ( RH picks up an inner note in the final two chords).

But the bottom line is that there are no 3.5 WT chords ... Beethoven builds big ... shouldn't we?

Top
#955150 - 05/15/08 04:42 AM Re: triads
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5899
Loc: Down Under
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
... but all this is old hat ... the error of our ways IMHO is our inability to put the student on the progressive path to composing like Mozart ... we pull the carpet on further compositional instruction once we’ve done our thing with the tired triad bleat...[/b]
Once again, this may be how you do it, but I can't see you have any evidence about how anyone else does it. As everybody else has said, you start from simple triads and expand. I don't pull the carpet on anything, but you have to have a basis on which to build your understanding of how chords (including the "big" ones you are fond of) are put together.

Also - have you noticed the irony of encouraging people to stop being "old hat" and start teaching students to compose like Mozart! \:\)

But the bottom line is that there are no 3.5 WT chords ... Beethoven builds big ... shouldn't we? [/b]

So if it's root position triads in close position that you're opposed to, there are some other Beethoven sonatas you'd better not look at. I'd avoid op.110 if I were you - crawling with them, it is. \:\)
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#955151 - 05/15/08 09:01 AM Re: triads
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
For some reason the triads diagram promised in the opening gambit is non est ... so, if anyone is still interested, here is a repeat of the diagram in WHOLE-tones ... showing the 3.5 WT interval of all but the diminished VII.

web page

web page

Top
#955152 - 05/24/08 11:32 AM Re: triads
cjp_piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 202
Loc: Cincinnati OH
Ummmm..... we don't teach triads because that's how all music sounds, we teach them because that's how all (okay, MOST) music is made up.

The whole point in the "3.5WT" that you're talking about is to UNDERSTAND the basics of harmony and harmonic progressions that ALL the classical (and Jazz, and Rock, and Pop . . . )composers use. The point isn't to play triads in root position for your whole life.
_________________________
MTNA Nationally Certified Teacher of Music, Piano
Instructor of Music Theory, Accompanist
Member: MTNA, OhioMTA, SW District OhioMTA
www.mtna.org
www.ohiomta.org
www.swomta.org

Top

Moderator:  Ken Knapp 
What's Hot!!
75,000 Members and Growing!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
165 registered (88 Fingers Jeff, A Guy, accordeur, 44 invisible), 1840 Guests and 19 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75506 Members
42 Forums
156138 Topics
2292851 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Action parts any different from 80s,90s, 2k Charles Walter?
by Gatsbee13
4 minutes 19 seconds ago
Question about finger reach!
by Plopsy
17 minutes 20 seconds ago
OK so a 700 pound grand piano walks into my house and...
by BrianDX
34 minutes 22 seconds ago
Digital Piano Sufficient for a Newbie?
by DancerJ
53 minutes 50 seconds ago
E.Tubin - "Ballade on a theme of Mart Saar"
by Svenno
Today at 03:38 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission