Hi all,

How do you define the role of the piano teacher when teaching an intermediate student? By this I mean, where the student obviously knows the basics ie. rules, reading music, timing etc. but going for a Gr. 3 exam for example.

I would be interested to hear your opinions. I am afraid to give mine right now because I am by no means an accomplished teacher and perhaps your answers will help me towards that

I know nothing about the Gr 3 exam, so please keep that in mind. If I were you, I would make sure I was well aware of all the criteria that they are looking for in students at this level so that you don't miss anything.

Intermediate students are a lot of fun, because the repertoire really gets exciting. However, it also varies quite a bit in difficulty. Usually what I do is I assess what the student needs to learn, and find a piece or two that incorporates that. At this point they should be playing scales (2 octaves or working up to it, in all keys), know their chords, and arpeggios as well. These are so important for the rep they are playing now. The selection of music and technical exercises at this point are key to success at this level for the student, so the teacher must really do her homework.

Also, as the music becomes more complicated, students who think they can get by with practicing by simply playing through the pieces start to finish will really come to a screeching halt in their progress. The teacher must really teach them good practice habits and make sure that they are doing these things at home. Many students at this level are just reaching adolescence and so their minds are on "other things". Enlisting the help of a parent may be necessary (especially for boys at this age, I've noticed) to make sure they are doing what they need to do.

Another thing is expression in music. While all of these things I've mentioned should be taught at the elementary level, it is usually to a lesser degree because of the simplicity of elementary music. At this point the teacher can delve into more means of expressive playing, and even the historical significance of the music they are working on. Tying into what the kids are learning at school in history or even movies they've seen are great ways to make more connections in their growing brains.

This is just a small amount of what goes into teaching at this level. I'm sure other posters will have plenty more to say!

I have been a piano teacher for only 2 years...so forgive me, if any of the following is wrong...

Personally, I think a music teacher plays a very important role, especially in teaching the intermediate...for various reasons:

1. To inspire the intermediate to 'think OUT of the box'...many of the piano teachers in my country...are still using the old approach...where they will play for the student, and student follows the exact way the teacher tells them...made me feel like a photocopier...

2. To teach them to think independently, and knowing which hand or pedaling technique to apply when it comes to approaching a piece...

3. To reach out to them, and assure them that there is more to music than just notes and expression in itself...there is interpretation and history behind it too...

4. To instill good concentration and focus...teaching them appropriate discipline and ways of approaching a piece of music...so that they in turn, will be able to pass it on to their future students...

5. To draw in them a craving/joy/feeling that comes from within, when playing music...instead of being a blank piece of wood...all notes and ornamentations only...

6. To introduce to them different approach of the songs...

7. To discuss with intermediates and encourage them to form their own thoughts about their music and techniques...

8. Lastly, they especially need all the above, to survive playing a 3 movement sonata of Liszt, lets just say....or even a piano concerto for that matter!!...

I'm just thankful that my piano teacher stood by me through all these grueling times...

It's what to listen for; just as the hunter teaches how to track. The rest, as Glen Gould says, only takes 1/2 an hour.

Thanks for your replies Morodiene and Lessajinomoto. I'm glad to see that I am somewhat on the right track.

keyboardklutz, do you mind explaining your answer a bit further? I'm not sure I understand it...

I have a couple of questions which should maybe be posted under a new topic but are based on the answers sent here:

Morodiene: You mention good practice habits. What do you suggest as some examples? I understand that it's probably best to suit these habits to the areas the student needs most work on but are there some general guidelines you (or anyone else) would advise?

Lessajinomoto: I have 2 questions for you but again, would welcome answers from anyone.
1. Thinking out of the box. My student is coming from a teacher who did the opposite - the photocopier type - and she is having trouble "hearing" the new pieces she is playing. She is begging me to let her have a listen to the CD which accompanies the book (which I initially confiscated because of the above) and I'm wondering if that will do any good or hinder the "thinking out of the box" process.

2. Thinking independently. While a piece of music can be played in somewhat different ways, what do you do with a student who prefers certain accents or the like in a piece that you don't agree with? My teacher would encourage me to play it her way which I didn't necessarily like and I am loathe to do that to my student. But to my ear, it simply doesn't sound musical and I would hesitate to send her to an exam like that. Any advice?

I would still be interested to hear from others on "the role of the piano teacher". It seems to me so far, that the role is to encourage correct technique by setting the necessary exercises, pieces etc. and also to help the student develop musical creativity. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I know I sound really amateur, and I am. I appreciate you taking the time to read and reply.

Playing the piano is easy compared to listening. i.e. anybody can mechanically reproduce the physical process.

What a load of codswollop ... all the enigmatic
double-talk might amuse some ... but the little lady asking for clarification doesn't need the Glen Gould maxim to help her case ... I'm voting for a new King who can play the piano!!

Sorry to disillusion you Sir btb but you can't vote for kings.

Thinking out of the box...[/b]
For the moment (I have just 2 years experience teaching, so maybe a more experience teacher may be able to help)...if I had such a student as yours, I would continually assure her that I WILL give her the CD, provided that she has prepared and know her notes...if she is of an intermediate level, she should be able to prepare at least that...during these couple of lessons without CD, you may want to encourage her and ask her how she feels about the music...questions that will lead to an exciting discussion...that may perk up her interest and her confidence in herself...one of the reasons why she may want the CD, is because she is used to that practice...and she probably does not trust her own self in terms of interpretation...but at an intermediate level, she is encouraged to do so, otherwise she will struggle in music pieces that are not available on CDs...

of course, after a substantial amount of time discussing, you can then lend her the CD, so that she can get more ideas out of it...different pianist plays different...so give her a couple of versions if you have...that may widen her knowledge more...

Thinking Independently[/b]
There is a limit when it comes to thinking independently...while we encourage our students to think independently, I meant expecting them to NOT EXPECT us teachers to spoon feed them all the time...at the end of the day, we are their guide and support. It is just like a teenager, you know...teenagers are old enough to sort out some of their problems...but parents are still there looking for them if things really go wrong...

If something does not sound musical to our already trained ears, there is a reason for it...and we must share it with our students...of course, the choice to follow is still theirs...we cannot close that option entirely...so, if we want to change the 'unmusical accent'...I would suggest we reason out with them by doing a comparison perhaps??...ask the student to say honestly, which sounds better and more musical...and better yet, if the student still insist on his/her interpretation, ask them what is the image in their mind...or what is it that they are trying to portray through their music...they not having the same intentions with their teacher in that specific piece of music, may be one of the reasons why they may not agree with the teacher...

Btw, please tell your student that EVERY STUDENT does and is not able to hear the music at the very first time...in fact, it is only when they KNOW EVERY NOTE, does the piece makes sense...

The ONLY PERSON, that the piece makes sense to, even before it is played...is the composer himself...and none other, I think...

Why, some pieces like Prokofiev and a couple of Messian and Bartok pieces, they don't even make sense to me even though I know those darn notes!!...I've got to play it hours on end, before a dim light in the tunnel of darkness comes through...

No. I am a student, and the music begins to make sense before I have played a single note. If you know how to read, understand patterns, analyze, and if you can audiate then that piece already has a primary form or outline, including musically, and that can happen while you're sitting on a bus reading the score.

On page 3 of this page http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/27/2020/3.html
I gave some examples of how I learned to approach music systematically. The question was on fixing error, but the same idea applies to approaching new music. Surely there is a way of systematically analyzing and exploring music in part, as a whole, for structure and message - but such analysis will have to be joined by some knowledge of the structure of music and genres. How else can music make sense? Music cannot be approached as it is heard, as one big gob of a unit - surely it has to be understood and developed systematically from that first understanding? Is there not a system to this that is developed, taught, and applied?

I came to my first music for decades without instruction, but also without recordings or examples, so I was forced to extrapolate from the written music, finding in it as many clues as I could. I would thoroughly dislike hearing the CD first.

Sorry, I take that back...not EVERY student, but students generally....

My apologies to KeyString, as my thoughts start from observing many teachers in Malaysia, who still teaches using the old school of thought...which is playing out the new piece for their students, and their students prepare it for the week...

Yes, I do teach them to approach the music systematically as well...just like they do sight-reading...but some of my intermediate students (it was passed on to me by another teacher) have not got used to that way of approach and cannot make sense of their music unless it is a Fugue or a Sonata (which patterns I have taught them and made sure that it is buried deep inside their hipotalamus)...I'm still trying my luck with them...*sigh*...

Some good practice habits might include: not simply running through the piece, but identifying areas which are weakest, and attacking those. The means of the 'attack' will vary according to the issue at hand, but many common methods include super-slow practice, mapping/describing what is going on in general in the difficult measures (which is basically forcing the student to understand what is being asked of them before trying to jump in and play it), hands separate practice, and practicing in rhythms. The student should make note of these measures and work on these until they are fixed. Setting small goals for themselves, like "This week, I will get m.5-10 figured out!" I do encourage them to play through the piece in entirety to remember the overall feeling of it, but then to delve into the tough measures. Of course, if it takes too much energy for them to play through it *and* do the detail work, then they are to jump right into the detail work first.

Also, helping students budget their time is a big one. Letting them know what amount of time is acceptable and what they should be doing with their allotted time is very important.

I agree with you; however, how do you make sure that the student follows your directions during the week?

In my experience as a student, my teacher always played the song for me first so I could tell her if I liked it before we chose to continue with it. For my student also, she listened to all the songs on the CD once (I was with her) and she picked the 3 that she liked best (this is for her exam). Do you believe this is not the right way to do it? That she should study the songs first and decide by reading which ones she likes? Personally, I can't do that. It's something I should be working towards.

Incidentally, this student actually gets terrified when she just sees the score. If it looks complicated, she'll just say - no I don't want to do that one. One of the reasons I prefer she hear it first so she can tell me that she doesn't want to play it. Obviously, she doesn't remember how it sounds because now she wants to hear it again.

That's the million dollar question, isn't it? I think it may be different for every student, or at least every type of student, if one can categorize them. I just keep trying until I find something that works.

asap:
I think this is a dependency on aural learning, which means her reading ability might be lacking. It is one thing to listen to a piece to see if you like it, and it's another wanting the CD so one can learn the piece. A more advanced learner, of course, can use multiple recordings to help them with interpretative ideas, but I don't think this is the case with your student.

Do not give her the CD and explain to her why. Work on her sightreading abilities by having her do books like Let's Sightplay (Faber & Faber) or give her a book of songs that are a step or two below her current level of playing. Have her sightread for you to assess her reading ability, and then have her continue with regular sightreading exercises to improve it. Once she does this, she will be much less dependent on someone playing it for her, and she will also be able to figure out how a song sounds just by reading it!

Dear asap2004,

Gosh, your student sounds a lot like many of mine!!...*grin*...yes, many 'dictates' and decides what they like or do not like, and if they want to play it...but in my opinion, it is not my job to just teach them what they like...if they like the song so much, then it is already half the battle won...it is the difficult songs, which they DON'T like, should then I sit in, and guide them through it...to help them see that it is not impossible after all...to help them open their minds into receiving what they initially do not like...

I feel this will be a good training ground for them...in life, they will not get everything they want too...and they will learn to cope with it...I think it is the same for music...we may have our own preference as to which composer we are able to bond with...but at the end of the day, it is essential to study works of all composers, so that we are able to appreciate their contribution to the world of music...

of course, that is just my opinion...I'm sorry if it is an offense...

Returning to the original question - When you ask to define the role, I'm guessing what you are asking is what should a teacher be doing. If not, ignore my response.

When students become true intermediate pianists, that is, they are now into the classical sonatina literature, the Bach Inventions, playing the easiest works of Beethoven, Grieg, Chopin, etc., they are looking at typically 5 to 10 years of study ahead of them, depending upon how much daily effort they are willing to make.

We are refining skills. Students are improving their voicing and phrasing; they are mastering multiple staccato and legato touches, they are learning to effectively half and quarter pedal plus fluttering. They are learning to read multiple voices. They are learning to find where the melody voice is, and to place supporting voices behind the melody. They are learning clarity of touch and improving their velocity. They are gaining command of evenness in scales, arpeggios, etc., so that rapid passages do not sound rough.

Most importantly, they are learning, under our guidance, to learn to listen to themselves as they play.

I'm glad you wrote this Morodiene. I think in the excitement of my student going for her first exam, she wants to rush things a bit and "just get there". She has asked me to book her in but I have told her I'd rather not do that because if she's not ready she'll go in unprepared. With the amount she has to learn it looks like it will be a while away yet.

I have been hesitant to "go off on a tangent" so to speak, with her because I don't want her to lose focus but you have just reassured me that this is the way to go. In fact, I probably should never have doubted it because how else is one supposed to learn properly but with these exercises.

I think you've nailed it on the head, again! I wish I were as perceptive and articulate as you.

I noticed a similar problem with one of my beginning students who used the Piano Adventure Gold Star Adventure series (the ones with accompanying CD). She made amazing progress through the levels. Then when we started sight reading for the exam, she basically dropped dead. It was a wake-up call for me to start over with her on the basics of (mostly) rhythm and (some) note-reading. Just today at the lesson she made another error counting 1 and 2 and in a 2/4 piece with four eighth notes. I'm going back to the drawing board.