I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I recently started teaching a young boy (3rd Grader) who was a beginner who has taken guitar lessons for about a year before starting piano. Anyway, he's displayed some nervousness and frustration when he makes mistakes in lessons, but nothing too out of the ordinary as far as I could tell. He's insisted that his mom stay during the lessons. It was something I suggested at first, and he's still wanted her there. She has needed to run errands during his lesson many times, however, and so she will often leave and return when he's done.

So we have been preparing some simple duets that I will play with him at the recital in May. His favorite is "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" and he's really done a fine job learning it considering that he has only been with me for a couple of months. So we were sitting down and trying the duet together, as I felt he was ready to try. I have always told him that mistakes are good, because then we learn from them what we need to work on to become even better players. There was a spot that he was having trouble with, and I asked him, "Why is this part a problem?" hoping to incite discussion about it to help him figure it out. Instead, he put his head in his hands and began to cry! I told him that mistakes are necessary and he's getting frustrated because he's expecting to *not* make any, and that is just not possible. He calmed down, and I let him choose if he wanted to play a game or continue the lesson. He wasted to play his other songs, and so we did. When his mother came back, I talked with her briefly, and she understood, saying that he has a tendency to be a perfectionist.

So now I'm thinking, now that I know he's a perfectionist, I need to change my strategy. I already told him that he could play his song without me playing with him at the recital if he wanted (we still have a month before the recital), and he seemed to be relieved about that. Any other suggestions?

Coincidentally, I sometimes feel like crying at my lessons too. :p

I can't help but wonder if kids like this don't eventually grow up to be perfectionists in adulthood, unwilling to accept anything but perfection from themselves. Most people, through lifes experiences eventually realize its an impossible to accomplish lifestyle and learn to realize imperfection is the norm, rather than the exception.

You don't seem like the type of teacher who would put a lot of pressure to excel on a young student, so I can only assume his state of mind is self imposed. As your conversation with his mom would suggest, his mindset is probably engrained into his personality and will be difficult to change. I'm not sure its within the scope of your responsibilities to even attempt to change it.

However, with that said, I would try to comfort him by doing everything you can to sell him on the idea that making mistakes during piano lessons is normal and expected. Maybe try relating stories of things he might have experienced that are similar to his mistakes during lessons.

"Nobody can hit a home run everytime, make a strike during bowling everytime, score 100% on every test at school, etcetera." I think when he sees the similarities of imperfection of other areas in his life and sees all the other kids not being able to be perfect either, it may give him a greater sense of comfort that imperfection is the norm.

On a personal note (and I'll admit I could be wrong about this), I'm not so sure backing down from the duet is sending the message you intended. To me, it sends the message that is okay to backdown from a challenge or difficult situation. Will this lead to your student giving up on other challenges just as easily? Its hard to tell, as everyone is different. Its also possible that he's overly sensitive, perhaps warranting extra tactfulness when presenting criticism.

My two cents.

Morodienne - in an attempt to get closer to this, do *you* know the answer to your question: why was he having trouble with it? If he is a perfectionist, maybe he is trying to get the whole piece right. But if we strive toward what lies underneath the piece, such as the solution to awkward fingering, that is an achievable goal that we can perfect. When we get that achievable goal, the piece consequently becomes more "perfect" and so we have found a solution for perfection which is not overwhelming.

The other thing that strikes me is that he cried after he had struggled with it, and you asked why this part might be a problem.

What was happening during his practicing before that lesson? Might he have been struggling with that passage all week? Was he reliving that week long struggle in his mind so that it made him cry? Was he then reliving that same futility in the lesson and your question?

That puts me back to the preceding paragraph. He is having problems with that particular section. Why is he having problems? What is the nature of that problem? Therefore what is the solution to that problem? What can he do during the week of practising, other than labouring to get it right, as step-wise strategy? How can you guide him toward his practising, if he is a perfectionist?

My son is learning the cello, and I have the pleasure of accompanying him on the piano sometimes. While we were rehearsing a recital piece, he would become frustrated because he never played it note-perfect. I assured him that the same was true for me on the accompaniment! That didn't help...

Finally, I told him that we should rehearse our strategy in case one of us lost our place in the piece. We picked 3 different places in the piece where it made sense to "start over" if we just got totally off. Then, while practicing, one or the other of us would deliberately screw up randomly somewhere in the piece, so that we could practice going to one of our 3 "escape points" to resume.

It was fun, kept us on our toes, and seemed to give both of us a bit more confidence, so that when the recital came, we both felt prepared in case the worst happened - and subsequently, it didn't.

I think in some cases, perfectionism is a fear of the worst-case scenario (like have a brain freeze in mid-recital) - and if you can prepare for those, it paradoxically makes them less likely.

Hi Morodiene,

Just another thought, from someone else who suffers from perfectionism from time to time (and has actually cried in the car *after* a lesson!)

When you asked, "Why is this part a problem?" - I assume you were trying to get him to think about what was going wrong, what was difficult, and how it could be fixed... is it possible though that he heard it as more accusatory (as in, "why didn't you do more to make this work? why didn't you better prepare this?") - only pointing out this possible negative interpretation, because that's the kind of thing I'd easily misinterpret, and even more than the mistake itself, hearing *that* from my teacher would make me want to cry too!

Just another thought! Good luck!

Boys, under all that bravado, have amazingly fragile egos. You need to be sensitive enough to your student's progress so as to not allow them to fail. What you see as a small mistake can often devastate. I think that's why fewer boys continue.

Personally philosophy aside on whether perfectionism is a flaw or not, I always found teachers who point to the "average" as a way to ease my anxiety to isolate me even more. Teachers, IMO, should not use this strategy. It could be a great disservice to the child and pointing out that they are not "normal" rather than the gem that they are.

Bounce off of the desire to be flawless in their performance by facing both at the root of the problem and head on at the issue. This will let the student pick themselves up afterwards and work towards their goal. Point them to practice the problem areas, How to practice these areas, and being able to continue playing despite mistakes. Teach them to listen to what they are playing so that mistakes at least "sound right."

All great and thought-provoking questions. I'm still at a loss as to what will be the best way to proceed, however. I do feel it is necessary for me to tackle, even though one poster pointed out that it is a personality thing and beyond the scope of teaching piano. I think it is exactly what students are supposed to get from lessons like this. If it teaches them nothing else than be persistent, then it is a good lesson to learn, don't you think?

This boy didn't have a lot of 'bravado,' but he was trying to hide it from me by not honestly answering questions before this final meltdown about difficulties. Surprisingly, he plays another duet with me just fine, and we will do that for the recital. That's why I felt it was OK to let him not do a duet for the recital. But I also left the door open and said , "we'll see how it goes...after all, we still have a month to prepare!" So not completely off the hook . I'm not the type to back down from a challenge. I overcame a lot of these same issues myself, and so I don't want to "give up" on this child and let him be whatever way. As KBK pointed out, this may be why so many students (not just boys) leave.

Thanks for all the ideas. Does anyone have any practical advice on this though? Like what they've done with a student like this?

I am intrigued by this discussion! Perfectionism, as we call it,and frustration that comes as a consequence of mistakes, is actually very often a sign of giftedness. The NEGATIVE side of it! Gifted kids know how so many things come to them naturally, and how they conquer most challenges with great ease and much faster than their peers. At the same time they have great difficulty accepting and believing in their giftedness as often they see it as a burden not as a gift that it is.

So, when they run into problems, they despair, they shy away from added effort as all that makes them think, "I am stupid!" Typical reaction.

Basically everything you told that student about mistakes is correct. Try gently asking questions (whether the kid has been "officially" identified as gifted or not), such as: Hhhmmm, do you find that you do your homework fast? Do you usually finish assignments in class before your friends? Do you find math (or any other subject) easy? Do you sometimes think you are stupid - especially when you make mistakes? (This is a CRUCIAL question, but must be asked very gently and in a very understanding manner!)

In most cases you'll get a "yes" answer to most of the questions. Then, you explain to the student that he/she has a great ability to learn and that it appears most things come to him/her easily. But, follow that up by explaining there are certain very complex challenges, and playing piano is certainly one of them, that require more effort and work. Putting in effort and studying diligently is not a sign of stupidity (gifted often think that's the case). And also explain that being smart only means they have the capacity to learn, but it doesn't mean they do not need to invest time and effort.

For me, this approach worked equally well with both gifted and regular kids, perfectionist or not! Kids do want to please and mistakes make them fear they are not pleasing anyone, the least of all themselves.

Jelena,
Thanks for your interesting insights. I think I have some ideas with everyone's help here to know how to approach this child!

Part of me wonders if his mom has anything to do with his attitude. She is a school principal (I think at his school!), and she is a very meticulous person (she's caught a couple of errors in my various notes to parents). But I think perhaps that might be why he is so sensitive to criticism. She is a very nice woman, and so I don't mean to think badly of her, but perhaps her well-meaning criticism of her son has caused him to shy away from any criticism. I wonder if I should recommend that she make a positive comment after his lessons like, "You're really sounding good!" or some other sort of pat on the back just to help him overcome this. Of course, it needs to be genuine, and *he* needs to understand that someone can sound good even with mistakes.

I think I understand how this poor kid feels. I remember an incident about a year ago where a criticism caught me the wrong way and I cried in a music lesson - And I'm an adult! How embarrassing! It drifted into a downwards spiral for a few weeks, where I was afraid of making a mistake again... Which resulted in more constricted playing... Which resulted in more mistakes. What a mess. But at some point, both my teacher and I both realized what was going on and started to take actions that improved the situation. I don't know if any of these will help you, but they did help me:

- When I played a piece for my teacher, I was always mentally comparing myself to the pros. Of course, I was never up to scratch. My playing never sounded "good" to me. If my teacher told me it was good, I basically didn't believe her. However, I did believe her if she gave me a very specific compliment. For example, "Your rhythm is much better this week. I can tell that you've been practicing a lot."

- For every criticism, make sure there's a very specific solution. When my teacher points out something that's wrong, I always feel a little sting inside. I can't help it. But then she helps me understand the problem, shows me how to fix it, and (very patiently) makes sure I can do it. The improvement in my sound usually wipes away the sting of the initial mistake. After a while, I realized that lots of criticism led to big improvements.

- One day, the teacher asked me what I thought was right and wrong with the way I played something. I immediately pointed out several things that were wrong but couldn't think of anything that was right. She then explained to me why it was also necessary to identify the elements that were working for me. I never really thought about it before, but she was totally right. It shifted the way I thought about my playing.

- It somehow took me a while to fully trust my teacher. I obviously never thought she would do anything to hurt me, but I didn't feel "safe" for a long time. The way I played was tied to the way I felt about myself as a person. If I took a chance and played my heart out only to make big mistakes or be told that I was wrong... Well, that would mean that "I" was wrong. That started to fade when I saw how much happier she was with my playing when I started to open it up.

I probably sound like a complete nut. I'm not sure how it happened, but I've always been this way. I guess some other people are too.

Morodienne,
Martha Beth Lewis Site Link also writes extensively about the problems of giftedness, similar to what Jelena has told us. She has particular strategies and approaches that I think are well worth exploring. It is wonderful to now have two resources on giftedness which also focus on the downside, and what to do about it.

Pianolina,
Thank you for your comments from the 'other' perspective! The comment about even if your teacher said it sounded good, you didn't believe her reminded me of a book that I once read and now think I need to revisit, "The Perfect Wrong Note" by William Westney. He addresses this very issue, and perhaps that is at the heart of this little boy's problem. When I complement him, he doesn't believe me because all he hears is what he did wrong and not all the great things he did that make his mistakes pale in comparison.

keystring, I'll be sure to check out that link, but as I'm writing this right before I go to bed and get ready for another busy day, I might not be able to get to it in the near future .

I, too, come from the "other side." Even now I struggle with thoughts of inadequacy since I can think of all of one time when my dad actually gave me a compliment on my playing. It was always "you can do better, you don't try hard enough." Sure, that was true on both accounts, but it also tore me up inside over years of hearing that. And.. the one lesson I've had since then, I just about cried during because of my teacher's comments and almost toyed with the idea of just giving up completely.

I don't really agree with Jelena's suggestion of addressing "giftedness" head-on, myself falling into that category, too. I hate the label--some people are good at some things, and some are good at other things--nobody will be able to catch on to everything quicker than everybody else. So.. explaining that "piano is a very complex challenge" and "requires more work," will work only until the student looks on youtube and sees six year olds playing pieces far above the norm, or even hears about another student progressing more quickly.

I do agree, however, that many "gifted" children see any form of struggle as "I'm not good enough," and NOT as a challenge to be overcome. There's a very good article about praise somebody posted a couple months ago. I have it on my hard-drive if you're interested.

I would go with with Pianolina suggested--namely, don't compliment the whole piece/performance, but point out specific things that were done well/poorly (not right/wrong.)

Again, I strongly suggest a look at Ms. Lewis' work. I have avoided the "G"-word, and especially pertaining to myself. But I have been told by various people in various contexts something of that nature, and I have encountered weird and perplexing obstacles because of they way my late entry into music and the various circumstances played themselves out. That is why that section of Ms. Lewis' work is impregnated in my memory in the first place. She is the first person to suggest giftedenss as a problem, and I celebrate the arrival of Jelena on the scene, because now there are two musical pedagogs saying so. By the time that I discovered the writing of Ms. Lewis, I had already begun adopting some of the strategies she suggested. Other things she wrote about pertained less to me, but I felt pertained to one of my children. Both my children are young adults, and both of them seem to be gifted - one in the area of visual arts, and the other in the area of music - but it extends beyond those disciplines. I homeschooled for a number of years in an open ended manner similar to the ideas that the Swiss Danny is exploring, having read those books which were written around the 1970's. It is hard to know how much environment, i.e. pedagogical decision, is a factor. One factor that I do believe exists is the nature of the school system itself and the effect it may have on students who don't fit the common profile. I was fortunate that each young man ended up entering a high school that was also unusual and in harmony with their ways of learning.

One thing that Ms. Lewis states is that the gifted child has not experienced failure and he doesn't understand it. Failure is bewildering and frightening. He has not experienced trying something, not succeeding, trying it again, succeeding a little bit at parts of it, and so on, until he has gone from failure to success. Thus if the child fails at his first attempt, his concept is that of absolute failure. Ms. Lewis understands this, and she literally sits down and discusses the nature of failure and learning, introducing him to an experience that the majority of people have, as though talking to a person from another planet. Proficiency at a musical instrument is an acquired skill that goes through a complex sequence of body-mind-nervous system changing and aligning itself, and while that is going on one does not play that well. To know that this is not an ultimate or permanent state is to lose a bewildering terror.

While the body and nervous system are catching up, the mind which is not a slow one gets engaged into other tasks. She engages the student in composition, theory, history, allows him to expand. I'm not sure about this, but it seems that this kind of mind, while needing to follow the slow pace of everyone else so that the body can grow as it needs to, also needs to expand or frustration sets in.

I have other thoughts but will stop here.

What I found useful was to learn that I could focus on a particular goal, such as tempo, for example, and progress in that goal could be observed, the goal was tangible enough, and it affected the quality of the music as a whole - any music. It is at the same time conceptual yet concrete, and I have a feeling that combination is an important component.

This is a new idea for me and one I look forward to trying with some students.

I'm honestly not sure if I'd be comfortable addressing failure in such a blunt manner. Anybody else relate?

"Aim for success, not perfection. Never give up your right to be wrong, because then you will lose the ability to learn new things and move forward with your life. Remember that fear always lurks behind perfectionism."

Quote by David M. Burns

If that kid is anything like me, addressing it head-on will take some real skill. Looking back, I think a lot of people did try to address that problem with me when I was younger, but it had little to no effect. My internal standards were extremely high and it was nearly impossible to externally reset them. Even now, after I've lived through enough failures to know that the world won't end (and to know that they're valuable learning experiences), it's still a problem. It's hard to reconcile what you intellectually know with what you emotionally feel sometimes.

The only one who ever got through to me on this issue was a person who was just like me - She had perfectionism issues that were severe enough that they interfered with her professional life. She saw some of the same attitudes in me and talked to me about it. She clearly understood how I felt so I was able to trust her and listen to her more than the others.

The teachers that I've done well with are the ones who create a "safe" environment in which to fail - No judgment, no frustration, and very specific comments. I think it also helped to know they were happy to see me and happy to work with me - So I felt like my presence was valued all the time, perfect or not.

Well, I had a lesson with this child yesterday, and I spoke to him about what Failure means. I explained that piano is very hard, and in order to get better, one *must* make mistakes and then learn from them. He seemed to understand that and be in better spirits about his song. I told him that if we keep trying to do the duet (I gave him some specific things to work on this week that should help him) and if it comes down to the week before the recital and it's still not comfortable for him, then we can say that we really tried, and thus it is not a failure. We can then just have him play by himself. He agreed to that. Then we improvised a boogie-woogie with him just playing a minor pentascale melody over my accompaniment. This seemed to help loosen him up a little, so I'll keep doing these sorts of activities with him and keep reminding him of why mistakes are actually good for us!

Good job with your student. He's lucky to have a teacher like you.

Morodienne, that has a good feel to it.

Success and Failure: I sat in a cafe in a huge art museum some years ago. On another level a man was telling a woman of his life and philosophy. He was a very successful man, maybe an artist or similar. He stressed the glory of failure. The only way to succeed is to fail over and over. The reason is that if you try only to do those things that you can already do, you will not fail, but you will not move from where you are. If you try to do what you cannot yet do, and reach what you have not yet reached, by definition you must first fall and fail. The higher you reach, the more successful you will eventually become, the more often you will fail. In a sense someone who has not succeeded has not failed and fallen enough times.

Obviously this has to be qualified. If you do something that doesn't work, and keep doing what doesn't work, it doesn't matter how often you do it. There is an adage that if you keep planting cabbages you won't get roses. You'll get cabbages.

Some years later I found myself translating a motivational document that contained nothing but quotes by famous successful people. There were quotes from Seneca, Winston Churchill, Goethe, Tchaikovski, Plato, Rockefeller, da Vinci. Many of these quotes had to do with failure, seen in a positive light, and most said what the unknown gentleman had said. Failure is necessary. Those who have reached the highest have a much higher failure count than the general population, and the failure is part of the way of getting up there, knowing what to do, becuase you know what not to do.

Failure and not being able to do something at the moment is nothing to fear. We are born able only to lift our heads and use our mouths. Where we are is not where we will be.

This is probably way to basic for a discussion on a teacher's forum, but I have recently been reminded again, rather forcefully, in my own practicing, that a mistake - especially a recurring mistake...say, a 'fumble' in a phrase that just keeps happening even after I slow down, work on it, and think I've fixed it...is almost always signal that there is something else that needs to be fixed beside the actual mistake.

A hand position, a fingering *in another part of the phrase*, something weak in my technique that only shows up 'right at that spot'...

In fact, I have gotten to the point that when a glitch stubbornly refuses to be fixed, I will play that section through and just let the mistake happen (!), but *pay attention* while it's happening. Almost always, this leads to an "aha" moment where I realize, "Oh! THAT's what's causing that!"

I'm a perfectionist too. It really helps to approach a mistake, not as a failure, but as an important signal that some small item needs correction/attention.

Seeing a mistake as a personal failure is the root of the problem, I think.

Having high standards for your work is not perfectionism, it is a pursuit of excellance.

Perfection remains elusive and heartbreaking because you never quite measure up to your inner critic. Perfection is crazy making.

Having appreciation for what you can do is healthy, having things to work on is adventurous, having things that make you miserable, such as a demand of perfection, means you never celebrate yourself, your music making, and you are never satisfied.

Is not progress a step in the right direction?

Being a musician is a path of time and effort learning and playing your instrument. It is going to take as long as it takes, regardless of how you think it should be going.

Don't be an obstacle to yourself - insurmountable odds are things that stop the music.

Why have pain when you could have gain?

Betty

The inner critic focusses on the self. Aiming toward something focusses on the goal. This is sometimes difficult to get across to teachers, as a student, since so many have been exposed to criticism and control. If I am not satisfied with something that I have played, and see an area that I would like to improve, I do not want to be comforted and reassured. I am not down on myself, not worried. In fact, finding room to improve is a pleasure because it constitutes higher and higher mountains, or a dab of gold paint in that corner of the painting .... now where can I buy gold paint, please? But the spontaneous reaction of many a teacher is "reassurance" because of the prevalenceof the inner critic. That can be sorta frustrating, when you want to get on with it - not reassure the teacher that you are not worried. Folks, we have to get out of this self-criticims thing, focus on the self, and go toward the task fearless of failure.

ProdigalPianist, that's a realization that I wish had come a lot sooner. So do you end up focusing on the cause of the mistake, working toward fixing it or making it work better, rather than simply the passage(s) in question? How do you handle it after the "aha" moment?

Pretty much. And often I find the source of the problem is something like a poor choice in fingering (for the first several years I had what I can only describe as mediocre teachers who let me use whatever fingering I wanted because I could make it work...at that level, anyway) or some other similar technical weakness...and they are usually things that are not fixed by "spot" practicing...

For instance, with the fingering...I will be really good and work and work a measure or phrase with the "correct" fingering, and then when I put the phrase back in context, I realize that a poor fingering choice one or two measures before that was what was "setting up" the mistake.

Or some other aspect of my technique is either weak or not "back" yet (I'm a returning adult), or not appropriately addressed by teachers when I was a kid....

The difference is, I guess, I know enough now to know why the glitches happen, usually...and I understand the importance of learning technique that I did not understand as a kid.

Does that make sense.

It makes a lot of sense, actually. That is what I try to instill in my students, is don't focus on the problem, focus on the solution. It's just when there are these emotional barriers to overcome, it sometimes takes drastic measures to get them outside their comfort zone first (i.e., improv) and then that frees them up to not be so self-critical.

Morodiene,

You speak of "emotional barriers to overcome" and "outside their comfort zone" and then "not to be so self-critical.

Are you making miracles happen?

Betty

Okay, I love the way Morodiene is handling this. You must be a great teacher.

After reading the comments about success and failure on the previous page, I just wanted to comment on one thing. There seems to be two types of perfectionism - One where you'll do meticulous work and strive for very high standards (good), and one where anything less than perfection is not good enough (obviously bad). The bad kind is a strange psychological experience. I've read a lot of comments about success being built on failure before, and I've experienced it plenty of times in my own life. I know it to be true. But that somehow doesn't change the visceral, emotional impact of a "mistake". I don't know, it's probably the sort of thing that requires therapy to truly fix. But people who are like this can also be generally happy, curious and willing to try new things. Yes, it's limiting and sometimes damaging, but I suppose we all have our demons to live with.

If you encounter someone like this, it's probably best to acknowledge and just work around it rather than try to "fix" anything. I've had a couple of teachers who have been really good about this, and I just loved them for it.

Well until a month ago I was terrified to make one slip in public.

My church episode (of murdering 4 songs due to fear) has taught me that it's okay, just make it sound wonderful dispite that slip.

I was relatively perfectionist as a kid, and it was one thing that led to the mutual frustration of/with my teacher and giving up formal piano.

Now I'm much more lax in most areas of life, guess I found too tiring ;-) to aspire for perfection in everything...

Martha Beth Lewis has many good points on many piano topics (and not only piano).

I agree, for that kind of learner, as specific technical *feedback* as possible (WHAT really happened / is seen from outside, HOW to do better, maybe WHY it happened, WHAT other variants are if first way fails) is much better than just criticism (The perfectionist is already better at self-criticism than at really doing it ;-)).