This is a very interesting comment from this thread
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/27/2389.html[QUOTE]

When I decided to restart lessons as an adult my first teacher referred to me as the "terribly tangled ball of yarn" and said it took him 18 months to pull apart and re wind up my technique before we could make any kind of meaningful progress.

I am curious, what are the most common or worst bad habits, techniques, etc. (or most challenging to overcome) that you inherit from students' past poor teaching/learning and how do you approach them?

There are a couple of such problems:

1) I've had kids who learned to play by imitating the teacher or by listening to a CD, and thus they never learned the proper sequence of finding the note, finding the corresponding key on the piano, finding the logical fingering, and playing the right note with the right fingering. I frequently find myself asking the question, "Is it seriously _that_ hard to play the right note with the right fingering???" AHHHHHHH

2) The memorizers. :rolleyes: These are kids who upload notes into their brains as soon as they start learning a piece. If they upload a wrong note or a wrong fingering, then it takes weeks, if not months, to correct the problem. This is the main reason why I expressly _forbid_ memorization of a piece until the student can play the entire piece to my satisfaction. A side effect of this problem is that kids spend all their time staring at their hands. They have no concept of the keyboard geography, and they over-rely on their eyes to find the keys. These kids also can't sight read if their lives depended on it.

3) This is a brand new problem. I just got two transfers from the same teacher, who just retired. Both students have learned quite a bit of music theory: know all the major/minor key signatures, can analyze chords and find secondary dominants. And they are both playing stuff from method books after 5 years of instruction. Level B method books. I almost fainted. It makes me wonder if their previous teacher majored in piano!? Or it could be a violin or voice teacher disguising herself as a "piano teacher" (that'd explain the students' proficiency in theory, but god-awful technique and repertoire level). Thankfully, this teachers does not belong to our state's MTA and won't be teaching anymore students. I'm preparing these kids to learn a ton of repertoire so they can catch up to where they need to be.

4) Mis-informed parents. Some of these delusional parents come to my studio thinking that their kids are already proficient in playing and are ready to learn so-and-so pieces, because their previous teacher said so. Huh???? I am so sick of informing the mis-informed. Isn't it unethical for teachers to make all these false promises and provide all these false information to parents? It takes me just as long to de-program these parents' brains as it takes to re-program the students' brains.

Tension. So sad to see in an 11 year old.

I'm with AZN!

The problem is that there are lots of deficiencies not just one, and it represents teachers who should not be teaching - at all. The mill is producing these students.

When a "legitimate" (experienced, trained) teacher is involved and begins to fix things - we see it as remedial teaching. To mention the word remedial teaching to the student or the parent would produce a huffing and puffing parent (smoke, on fire, irate) who would dump this teacher in a minute. However, they hung around the unproductive teacher without a clue of what was happening.

Programming. De-programming. I've done lots and lots of it. The student thinks you are nitpicking, he reacts badly for having to give attention to anything, he just wants to play through badly without receiving instruction. Which is what the first teacher allowed.

I had sisters as transfer students (10 - 12 years old) who wanted to play each song in their method book only once and turn the page. My style in teaching is to make observations about the music, to think, and to listen to the results. To identify problem areas. They disliked everything about my way. I began to get staring, intimidating eyes from them, then pinched lips, stiff bodies. They wanted out.

So bad playing doesn't recognize bad playing. WHat a catch 22 for some one who says they enjoy playing piano and "know" a whole bunch of badly played songs from the other teacher.

It doesn't have to happen this way. Parents have got to learn what is desirable and legitimate in good piano study so they can vacate the circumstances, and hopefully, not get into them in the first place.

AZN, do you get the idea that no one is listening?

Betty

Hi, Betty:

I'm not sure what this statement means. Please elaborate and explain.

It seems to me that some of us as teachers have a lot to say about our philosophies of teaching, our recommendations to our clients, our preferred ways of doing business, the learning programs we offer. We are the originators of our own creations in music teaching, we are experienced, opinionated, purposefull, and responsible.

When we give our viewpoints, or ask for compliance, we receive a lot of disagreement or challenges to our perspectives.

The clients have a preferred model different than ours.

This is the basis of "Do you get the idea that no one is listening?"

Regards,

Betty

Betty:

I started public-school teaching the same time I started teaching piano privately. In public schools, the students are our clients, and they definitely have _very_ different preferences. I also have to cater to the preferences of my supervisors, the preferences of the parents, and the preferences of the School Board. I think teaching public schools in the US is probably one of the most difficult tasks ever invented for humans. We teachers are literally being dragged four different directions--talk about being "drawn and quartered" on a daily basis. Worse, if we get stuck with awful students, we can't do anything about it. I've had students who spend every other day in detention, or suspended from school every month. Guess what? When their "punishment" is over they come right back into my classroom with a clean slate. Does anyone listen to the teacher? Heck, no!

Teaching piano is vastly different. YOU get to choose your audience. Non-serious students automatically drop themselves from the demands my studio imposes. You get to set the climate for your studio. Of course, you will get parents and students who disagree with your ideas, but then it is your choice whether or not to continue working with them.

If our demands are too high--to the point that we are having _not enough_ students--then perhaps we have to ask ourselves to lower our demands. I dropped the "no beginners" policy from my studio in the hopes of attracting more clients. Most of our values are negotiable. There are certain things that I would never do: teaching piano "just for fun" and accepting transfer students over the objections from their previous teacher. I'm sure there are other non-negotiable values, but outside of that, we have to teach ourselves to be flexible.

Is a bad habit something that needs to be unlearned?

Or is there just a level of sophistication that is waiting to be learned by transfer students.

Does a "play by memory only" student need to stop playing by memory? or do they need to gain a sense of confidence in the printed page.

Does a "beetle antennae" style of hand position need to be crushed? or could a teacher introduce a more effective means of using the playing mechanism.

Does a "pounder" need to be told to stop pounding? or could he be awakened to the marvels of expression.


From a communication standpoint, Students will react more positively to myself suggesting that they have some sharpening needed in a certain area, than to my suggesting (verbal or non verbal), that they have learned it all wrong. I've always experienced greater success as a piano teacher when I instruct students in suggestions of what to do, rather than what not to do.

It can be temporarily gratifying to announce in frustration that their previous teacher has wasted everyone's time and we will need to unlearn what they had taught. While it is important to point out that now they are getting high quality instruction and some things will be different, some things are better left unsaid.

Every one of them?

Well, not necessarily what I was looking for in terms of bad habits or technique/practice problems, but very enlightening just the same.

So, to summarize so far:

- the basics of fingering & consistent fingering;
- the memorizers of inaccurate ad hoc/prima vista readings;
- theory above practice (find this one hard to imagine);
- unrealistic self-evaluation / not open to constructive criticism & collaboration
- unnatural, unneeded tension while playing
- us vs. them: multitude of bad teachers (them) out there delivering ruined students to (us)
- students not respecting teachers absolute authority
- nonserious approach / just for fun

Personally I agree with pianoexcellence that it is more positive, productive and respectful to work constructively with what students can do instead of dwelling on what the cannot do and demeaning them or their previous teachers. If someone really has been ruined of course then a more radical approach might be appropriate.

My teacher never bad mouthed my previous instructors nor said I was wrong but he did open my eyes through his actions and teaching competence to how I could be better and was able to make the changes happen. I think that is critical at the point of a change in teachers or a new phase of study.

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Um, not all of us here play piano as our primary instrument! And while piano is my second instrument and do play it to an early advanced level, I am taught by a teacher who performs a lot as a soloist (he has an ARCT from the Royal Conservatory of Music, Toronto, as well as a Masters in Piano performance.), accompanist, and chamber musician, and I ask, or incorporate the techniques he teaches me in the lessons I teach my students. As for method books, most of my piano students are weaned out of them usually between 1 1/2 to 2 years of lessons, though some a lot less and others quite a bit more! My clarinet students usually follow the exam curriculum, which incorporates method book which incorporates pieces from method books the the elementary and early intermediate levels.

Meri

I just got another transfer "Suzuki" student. She reads notes, but _very_ slowly. And she's been playing the piano for nine years. She just barely finished learning from method books and started sonatinas.

Another "Revamp Project"...

Nine (9) years...? Wow.

There is no limit to what low expectations together with faulty approaches and poor application can't deliver. I would be very curious to know what exactly they were doing for 9 years.

BTW that was my 1000th post. Perhaps I should spend more time at the piano and less time here?

No, it really depends on the situation. If the previous teacher is wrong on so many different levels, then the student and the parents need to know about it. None of this "beating around the bush" stuff if you want to get big problems fixed.

But, of course, some people don't think of their problems as problems, and don't want to fix anything.

One thing has not been mentioned: Students where nobody has a background in music education (not the student, not their parents) will not know that something is wrong. They may also look at all teachers with undeserved (at times) reverence. If mistaught, they will be struggling with the results of that misteaching, and blame themselves. They may have a niggling doubt that their teacher was doing something wrong. Maybe whenever they did what the teacher said made things worse, while when they did what instinct told them, it was easier to play (think of obeying the "magnet", stiff-wrist, and "finger vibrato instructions). They will quickly quash this impression because it is "disloyal", "ungrateful", and they will feel both guilty and confused. Being told carefully might spell relief and end of confusion.

There are also issues of loyalty and trust, however. A bond forms between student and teacher, especially the first one. It may be difficult for a student to let go of that blind loyalty and admit he was mistaught: it can hurt to let go, and he may be torn. If he struggled for a long time and finds out it was unnecessary, there may be anger. If the first teacher was untrustworthy, can he trust the second, you? How long will it take?

It depends on the circumstance, student, age, dedication. Misteaching out of ignorance causes a lot of harm. When it is done from an attitude of not caring, it's almost criminal. It may be frustrating for a new teacher (the one inheriting such a student), but agonizing to the student who has been the unwitting recipient.