Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum 'you should change teachers every 3 or 4 years'.

'You should change teachers every 3 or 4 years'.

A friend just told me his bassoon teacher told him that this was a good idea.

I've been with my piano teacher for 7 years. She's an excellent, experienced and well qualified teacher, but I have the oppertunity to change and study at the Academy where I study cello on Saturdays, where I'd most likely get as excellent a teacher. Possibly better - but I doubt it to be honest.

Does anyone think changing teachers is a good idea if you have the option?

Cheers x

To best insure active learning, you should change teachers every 12 months.

My son just changed teachers this past fall after six years with his first teacher. He's only a year younger than you, so perhaps our experience might have some relevance for you.

First, I would argue that there is no hard rule here. You can work successfully with one teacher until you go off to a university or a conservatory for professional training. So, why ever switch?

Well, some teachers may have a limited repertoire that constitutes their specialization. A new teacher may have a broader or a different expertise, and that newness can be a very good thing. Secondly, some teachers may be more adept at conveying basic and intermediate techniques, but less skilled at advanced technique and/or advanced interpretive issues. Third, for some students the comfort zone becomes a trap that limits experimentation and learning. A new teacher may push you out of the comfort zone and into a new learning trajectory.

We switched for all of these reasons. His first teacher was quite good, but I felt that he needed a change to get him thinking about music in a different way. I would never have forced him to switch, so I had him take a few lessons from the new teacher. After one lesson he said the switch was fine with him. The new teacher is a performing pianist and professor at my university. She is a masterful teacher and he is getting pushed to learn details that escaped his attention earlier.

You could do the same thing if you wished. Pick a teacher who you think offers something of value. Ask to audition and then to take a few lessons. Then YOU decide.

Didn't hurt Kissin to stay with the same teacher --just a thought.

There is no way that a hard and fast rule can apply here...too many variables.

A "pro" and "con" list for such an important step would point out where your decision was leading. This should not be an impulsive move, it should be a calculated decision.

Always be considerate of the teacher with whom you have spent so much time with in a learning environment. No disappearing acts please. Announce intentions, thank graciously, and part amicably.

Make sure you know what kind of situation you are getting into. It's a good thing to have heard the new teacher's students in a recital, and to know the academic credentials earned, and the teacher's reputation.

This is extremely important for musicians wanting to advance to college to study music. How does the new teacher's program suit you?

Betty

It depends on the quality of the teacher and the aptitude of the student.

1) Good teacher, good student

Why change?

2) Good teacher, bad student

Hop on, student!

3) Bad teacher, good student

Change teacher at will.

4) Bad teacher, bad student

To each his/her own...

Sadly, it's all a bit pot luck. Going for the best you can afford will hedge your bet.

It's a difficult question when there are so many unknown variables, but would you consider studying with two teachers at a time? Then you could continue with your existing teacher as well as trying out your new options.

One thing I'd like to add though - if you're planning to become a teacher yourself then I think it's important to know as many different approaches as you can which would mean you would need to have studied with different people.

Only my two cents here.

fortunatly, i had all my "changing teacher" scenarios decided for me, my first teacher left town, my second teacher could only teach me up to a certain level, my next teacher i did NOT get along with at all, the next teacher wasn't a good match for me musically, and then my last teacher, i just got fed up with him as well. Even though i had a few "bad" teachers i still learnt alot from all of them, that is the pro to changing, always getting different advice and opinions. I don't think there is a set rule though to how often you should change.


If you don't want to leave you teacher, maybe try just having a few extra lessons here and there from other teachers, to see their points of view

I would suggest that at the heart of this question lays an issue that we don't address often nor deeply enough. That is: what exactly do you expect of your piano teacher? If you answer glibly, "To teach me how to play the piano," you deserve the teacher you get.

We as teachers can help potential students and parents of students better understand what they should be asking during the interview process, by asking leading questions, such as,

- What kind of music do you like best (and then naming several examples)?
- Can you name some pieces you would like Sam or Suzi to be able to play someday?
- Do you want Sam or Suzi to be able to play musically, that is, at a level which will get others to stop and listen?
- Are you aware that being a musician is much more than just playing the notes printed on the page, that the musician must have a knowledge of many diverse disciplines, in order to something into the music he or she is playing? (You probably want to phrase this differently).

Of course, these questions just scratch the surface of what we as teachers should be asking parents and adult students.

But then, we as teachers, also need to examine ourselves and our teaching. Do we have a curriculum we follow? Is it adaptable to different student learning capacities and desires? Are we able to tell parents where we can take a student to, should they elect to study with us?

IMHO, teachers, we should, during the initial interview process, as well as during annual evaluations with parents, discuss where the student is going, musically, as well as how well they are achieving that goal.

I have come to realize that it is extremely important to show parents by example, where their student can be at the end of one, two, four, six, and eight years of study. I say, can be, if the student has the full help and cooperation of the parent through the week while preparing their lessons.

We probably receive most of our students through referrals, which means, Mrs. X found out that Missy Y is taking piano lessons, so she asks Mrs. Y who the teacher is, if she's any good, how much does she charge, does Missy like her teacher, etc. While referrals are great, this is hardly the basis for selecting a teacher. And if this is the criteria for teacher selection, then changing teachers is probably going to occur frequently, rather than infrequently.

Your thoughts?

What disturbs me about the initial question is the image of changing teachers like changing socks. It's not good to keep wearing the same socks: they get stinky and then your feet smell. There is an underlying premise that teaching and learning is a static thing. The way you get taught in Year 1 is the way you are taught in Year 3, therefore you will be in a rut, your growth will not be well rounded, and to avoid being more worn on one side than another, you change teachers in order to get other aspects. Oops, I think we just switched to car tires as a metaphor. They're supposed to get rotated so that they get evenly worn.

I would imagine that if a teacher is involved in his teaching and is not only doing it superficially by dashing through a bunch of method books, that the nature of teaching would change as the student matures in skills and outlook. The nature of the task, the kinds of assignment, the way the student is taught, expectations would change as the student is changed through the growth that happens through a few years of lessons and practice. Also, the teacher would be developing his student toward something. Thus you have your tire change and change of socks.

If indeed there is a process, and a teacher is leading the student through stages, toward stages, I can see a change of teachers as disruptive of that process.

In the least, if there is a change of teachers there should be a reason. It can happen that a student outgrows what that particular teacher can give him. There might be a weakness or a hole in that teacher's abilities that is serious enough to merit consideration of a change, or some kind of coaching. I.e., situations crop up.

If there is dissatisfaction, perhaps because the student has grown in unexpected ways, or there is misunderstanding, the first thing should not be a change of teachers but communication to get to the bottom of things. There may be need for the student to change some things, or there may be things that the teacher may not be aware of some things. But if you are going to a new teacher, there are many unknowns. You don't really know what you are walking into until you have had a few lessons.

While we who are under the influence of the Anglo-American education system are used to changing school teachers annually, I should point out in Germany that in many schools, the teacher remains with the class from grades 1 - 5, thus insuring continuity of learning.

keystring, you hit an important point. We learn through stages, and the completeness of learning at each stage in many ways determines the success or failure of future learning. All of this demands that the teacher have an awareness of what must be taught, or to change perspective, what the student must master as he/she studies piano.

My experience is that when communications fail between teacher and parent, is when the parent begins thinking of changing teachers.

I think the nature of 'change' often has to do with dissatisfaction, frustration, unhappiness or the desire for more than what you currently have.

What have you changed in your life and why? Career, car, house, partners, eating habits, etc.?

If you're at a point where you're contemplating a change, ask yourself...

- Am I achieving the goals I've set for myself?
- If not, is that through the lack of my own efforts, talents and dedication or is the teacher at fault?
- Am I progressing at the pace expected?
- Am a frustratrated, unhappy or disappointed with any aspects of my education?
- Have I discussed this with the teacher?
- What benefits will I get from changing a teacher?
- What will I do if the next teacher is worse than the current one?

To me, this is a pretty important decision. You may have a lot invested in the current one. If you change, let it be for the right reasons -- one's that make logical sense and provide clear benefits, rather changing just for the sake of changing. Have a heart to heart talk with your current teacher and at least give them the opportunity to help you through what might be a difficult time. Its only fair.

Could I ask if the grass is greener on the other side?

If there is a difficulty between the teacher and the adult student, teen student, or a parent, would the first thing anyone thinks to do be to communicate, negotiate, and work it out?

People are used to voting with their feet it seems to me. It is often the easier way out. It's debatible whether there are any winners in such situations.

Betty

All excellent points, and as an adult student, these are wonderful assessment questions to be asking on a frequent basis.

The teacher of a young student, however, has to be asking these questions as a proxy for the student, who isn't mature enough to be asking for himself. And any parent reading this thread could easily rephrase these to evaluate their student's progress.

John, what is your reaction to the following scenario:

A young man begins his music studies at age 12. He is focussed and centred and works independently. He does not want his parent's input. Each time a new thing is given, it wobbles the first day, goes from wobble to solid as he finds his way into it, and for the rest of the week it is solid. Assignment done, teacher is pleased, steady progress. This goes on for several years. There is a variety of pieces, technical studies, scales and arpeggios, progress through the RCM program - progress through the grades. Teacher is well pleased, one of his best students, and more than once he asks his student to play a second time just for the pleasure of hearing him. There is no apparent friction: working together is harmonious, smooth, sometimes it seems like mind reading.

After one such lesson the young man explodes with pent up frustration, uncharacteristic behaviour. A few days later parent and student talk, and then parent and teacher talk. The teacher has no idea there was a problem. The message? The student wants to be criticized a lot when he plays. Teacher is concerned: "I would have to stop him every second note."

After checking with the student, who nods silently, the lesson with the requested criticism starts. Hardly has the student played three notes, he is stopped for a small correction. Two more notes: stop, correction. The young man works on each correction as it comes. A whole hour goes by like this. The expression on the young man's face: a tiny smile, contentment.

Reaction?

Keystring--

I don't stop my students after three notes, but I do stop them just about every other phrase, or whenever I hear a major problem. So, in a way, I do teach like that. Just that I won't focus on one or two problems for the entire hour. I ask my students, "Does this make sense?" If they seem to understand me, then I tell them to note it in the score and trust them to fix it on their own during the week.

Are there actually students who enjoy this detailed work? I have some hard-working students, but even for them I try to ease up with the criticism and, instead, focus on bigger muscial gestures. I guess a lot depends on the individual student.

That was the approach he was receiving, and it was the source of his unhappiness. The criticism that stopped him every third note and made him really work things through in detail is what made him content. I think we are edging on the unexpected complexities of the student who is both motivated and gifted, who may not respond the same as another student. The musicality of his playing was already a given. His teacher would ask him to play a passage a second time, simply for the pleasure of hearing it. There was no sign that there might be a problem, let alone such an intense reaction.

(double post)

This is like a multiple choice question:

You should change teachers every -
1) 3 or 4 years
2) 3 or 4 days
3) 3 or 4 weeks
4) 3 or 4 months
5) None of the above.

When should you interrupt your student to correct things:
1) After each and every note
2) After three notes
3) Every other phrase
4) Whenever I hear a major problem
5) After they have presented the whole piece.

How do you interrupt them?
1) I just start talking
2) I shout "No" and pull my hair
3) I shut the piano cover and leave the room
4) By falling asleep
5) I say "Let's get down to work and see what we can discover about this composer and this piece!"

We don't want to make piano lessons sound or feel like "The Gong Show" do we? Do you remember that?

Betty

Betty, do I sense a note of frustration?

Keystring, I couldn't teach that way. In fact, I wonder if that's teaching at all. The student shouldn't be having problems which demand stopping every three notes. That indicates to me a failure to master the basics which underlay whatever level the student thinks he has currently achieved.

Or the student felt that there were basics missing that he wanted to get at.

Keystring, is this a real or imagined scenario?

keystring, something else you posited caught my eye - "He does not want his parent's input." I frequently remind my students that their parents are their very best friend(s) - that they love their child, that they are underwriting a very expensive learning experience for them, and if given half a chance, can be very helpful, bringing to bear life's experience, even if they are totally music illiterate. When a student is at loggerheads with his parents, red flags go up!

John,

Students can be very independent without being at loggerheads with their parents. My #2 is very much like that. Forcing him to do anything is well-nigh impossible. Some people are driven by their own inner voice.

In any case, there is a case to change teachers once in a while. That case is not always compelling, because of a host of individual-specific factors, but for some students change is good. New perspectives offer something of value, especially for more advanced students.

John, I don't think my story came across correctly. My son was almost 12 years old when he began lessons. He took lessons because he wanted to take lessons. His teacher gave him instructions, and he followed those instructions. He understood what he was asked to achieve much better than I could, since I did not at that time play his instrument. We discussed, after the second lesson, what kind of input he wanted to have, and he told me his preference. I listened to his practicing and I could hear his playing of any new technique come together by the third day and his teacher was more than satisfied with the results, so it was working. By his fourth lesson, his teacher greeted us with a long face because he realized he had a gifted student progressing at a phenomenal rate who was already close to 13 years old, and he was depressed about the prospects of such a late age making a career of it since one tends to think along those lines when one sees talent. There was no conflict between me and my son at any time. Furthermore, he did well in lessons, meeting and surpassing his teacher's expectations.

He switched to a related instrument two years later, and with only two years under his belt, auditioned at a top university in a program under a sought after instrumentalist. He worked extremely hard to reach that in the little time that he had. There was no room for conflict with teachers or parents when aiming for those kinds of goals in so little time.

The common experience teachers cite is that of students needing to be reminded to practice, not doing enough, not wanting to do what is necessary. Your immediate response was that this young man thought that he had more technical abilities than he actually did. The idea that a student might be less satisfied than his teacher, or that a student might want to revamp his basics even at the moment that he is receiving praise and satisfaction from his teacher, is not occurring. This is what I am trying to break through. There are exceptions, and there are difficulties linked to this exceptionality because the reactions are not predicted. Different motivations than the existing ones are addressed.

Those whose attitudes are substantially different from the norm catch their teachers off guard. Their attitudes and reactions are not expected. Even when it's right in front of you, it's not seen. All kinds of ideas have been postulated about a student leaving a teacher, or dissatisfaction - all diametricaly opposed to the scenario that I have presented. What I have presented is not the norm. But it exists.

There is a thought-provoking article by Ms. Lewis on her site about the difficulty of the gifted student.

double

Currawong, real. My message got eaten by the gremlins.

Well first of all, I was discussing generalities, since we had no knowledge of the specific at that point in the discussion. And of course, there are students who are highly independent. I was! Just ask my parents. But now I regret not being willing to accept more input from my parents, and it would have been helpful to have had a few adults sternly advise me as why doing so might have been a good idea!

The problems encountered by the highly gifted are, as you point out, quite different in many respects than those we normally have to deal with. The teacher's first clue should have been when the student came to the lesson well-prepared. That should have been a major clue and that's when adjustments to teaching style should occur.

I'm not sure that all is lost if lessons don't begin early in life. I've heard of one 70+ year old woman who started lessons after retirement and is now concertizing. More apropos to your son might be the famous pianist, Harold Bauer. He probably started piano lessons a few years earlier, but his primary instrument was the violin until age 19, when he decided to switch to piano.

In any event, if the current teacher is overwhelmed with working with a truly gifted student, then change is indeed in order.

This went on for several years without the student ever telling the teacher what he wanted?? Unless there's something I'm missing, I'm not sure why the teacher would have had any idea there was a problem.

That is the point I was trying to make. I don't think it was years, but I do have the impression that dissatisfaction had built up over some months because what I witnessed was strong pent up frustration which was not typical. As a parent I was equally unaware. I was there for most lessons and the atmosphere was calm and harmonious. Practicing was regular and daily.

The point I've been trying to make here and elsewhere is that sometimes a student's motivation may come from a much different place than expected. I have read about students not wanting to practice, not being willing to do the work, finding it too hard, and also motivational ideas consisting of performances opportunities, competitions, rewards, inspiration through the teacher's enthusiasm. But the idea that a student might lose motivation because he wants to be criticized more, have more demands placed on him, fine tune the technical side of his playing - this has not cropped up as motivational.

On the surface the scenario seemed ideal.

This is something else: It's only recently that I caught on to the idea that students tell their teachers what they want. It was my impression that you take music lessons on an instrument, there are certain things that have to be learned and the teacher makes sure that you learned them. I had no idea that there were choices or wants in the matter. I'm sort of catching up to a number of things at this late stage. My son has gone on to higher studies but I'm still a student since I started later.

Yes, I do see what you're trying to get across in this scenario, and I can see why you are trying hard to get teachers to take notice of the situation of someone like your son. Some of us may never have a student remotely like this, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't be aware of it.

Perhaps I should have said "without the student ever asking the teacher for more information" rather than "without telling the teacher what he wanted". Some of my students absolutely pump me for information about how certain aspects of music work. But these are not the sorts of things I would try to shove down the necks of your average student. For them I distill the essence of what they need to know for their stage of development. As for "choices and wants", well, every student/teacher relationship surely is a two-way street. Choices and wants are important because we're teaching people, not just a subject. We're certainly not just pouring information into a container.

He placed in his audition over three years ago so that particular chapter is history. But since I am a student presently, I have a number of things to think about.

Thanks for the advice.

In answer to a few things -

No, I promise I'll be doing no dissapearing acts. I've been with my teacher many years and would talk to her about it. Possibly tomorrow.

I liked the sugestion about studying with two teachers. Sadly, that's not an option as the academy I go to has very strict rules about their teacher being the only teacher you may have lessons with. Also, if I apply, I'm stuck there for the year with that teacher as you pay for the years lessons at the beginning, even if it wasn't going to work out so well.
I like to think I could adapt though. I'm not dificult to get along with, and I want to work.

I also can't pick my teacher. If I decide I do want to change teacher to one at the Acad, I have to trust that the teacher they assign me will be a good one. But their standards are high and I don't doubt I'd get an excellent one.

My teacher just now -
I know she's an excellent teacher from her teaching methods, patience and experience. But i can only compare her to the teachers of my other instruments, not another piano teacher as i have no experience of one.

As to what level I'm working at -
A reasonable level which isn't impressive for how long I've been playing. But I didn't start practicing properly until about 2 years ago, and I have improved a lot since then.
Or enough to be hoping to take it as a second instrument when I apply for Uni either next year or the year after.

And yes, i do want to be a teacher, so i see Daffodil's point about teaching styles.

I just really wanted to know if you, as teachers, were offended or in agreeance at the idea that a student should change teachers every few years. How would you feel if it was your student who decided to have a change, who had been doing well under your teaching, and appeared to have no other reason that they wanted a change?
Becuase I don't want to make my piano teacher feel that's what I'm doing!

I think from a new teacher I'd like someone who doesn't know what to expect at all. Someone who, when i work especially hard in my first few weeks, is disappointed if that standard is not carried on. I think there is probably such thing as your teacher knowing you too well. I suspect my teacher could now look at a piece and point out exactly what bits I'll find dificult, what bits I'll enjoy playing and what bits I'll come back with unlearned after a weeks practice because I got frustrated with it and decided I liked the start better.
But maybe that's a nice thing?

I'd like to change for a few reasons.
I'd like to see new teaching styles.
to be pushed
to play my favourite instrument in a place that provides constant performing oppertunities (as I've played the piano for 7 years and have played in public once, which is pretty ridiculous)
to listen to a different view on my playing
I'm sure there are other reasons too.

There are also lots of reasons why i don't want to change. Mostly becuase I know I've been taught well over the years. Until 2 years ago, it was the reluctance to practice that held me back, but the teacher was still excellent. And I've seen what has been done in 2 years when I finally did decide that playing the piano was the way forward!

Really - thanks for the posts. I apreciate them.
Still not totally sure what I'm going to do. I'll mention it tomorrow.
Because my current teacher's opinion will defnitely affect my decision.

Any more thoughts would still be appreciated.
Thanks.
xxx

There is the crux of something right there, Currawong. You would have more to give, but the average student has quite enough with what you have already given. This kind of student would happily accept this "more", is looking for it, but because he has not asked, you have not given. And because he has a high energy level of work, the dissatisfaction builds.

The question is still valid today because while my son has moved on, I am a music student so I have pondered these experiences.
John, he was identified as gifted by about the third lesson. Or are you saying that if he was coming well prepared and easily handling the material, he should have been pushed more so that he had a challenge?

The key is recognising which student needs "more". I would be rather surprised if I'd had a student like your son without knowing it. Usually there are many little things you do which give clues as to where a student is at, even if they're not saying anything. I'm no mind reader, but I've done enough teaching over the last 40 years to be able to work a lot of things out .

keystring - I generally approach a new student by providing an overabundance of work, so I can assess what the student and family is capable/willing to do. I realize that many teachers tend to be laid back. That's not one of my characteristics. I'd rather push until the student cries out for mercy. But that's me. I happen to think we mollycoddle our children way too much. Believe it or not, many parents are delighted to learn their student can do more than they expected, others resent seeing their student being pushed. Don't ask me why. Anyway, if the student is finding the assignment a breeze, the teacher must adjust. If he doesn't, the time for student and parent to discuss the matter is the 3rd lesson, not the 3rd year. And that's the problem of not using your parent(s) as part of your support structure. Most children, gifted or not, are no match for the experienced teacher. It often takes adult intervention to cut through the BS.

John--

While I do agree with you, I have lost several talented students _because_ I was being too pushy. It is a terrible balancing act--not being too pushy, while keeping the kid challenged.

John, it's a lot more complicated than that. To all intents and purposes he was being pushed and I was there at the lessons so I was not out of the loop. It was not quite a question of whether the work was a breeze - there were other factors. He would have liked your approach, btw, and you would have had a willing student.

keystring, your mailbox is full!

The problem with a public forum such as this is that we only have a very limited amount of knowledge on what is generally a very complicated issue. We have a teacher here in town who is also a product of a Russian Conservatory, and I think, from what I hear, that she also has difficulties working with American students, but greater success working with Asian immigrant students. IMO, our culture has drifted far from its European roots.

AZN - I, too, have lost students for that reason, although I have become far better at sensing when I need to pull back. Students are so used to the low key, low stress public education system that for many, it's a tremendous shock to encounter a teacher who cares enough to push them to their limit.

I have had transfer students who have had minimized learning after several years come into my piano studio. They usually want to play any piece, once, turn the page, they are NOT in the habit of getting feed back. In fact, any thing sounding like a correction or suggestion to them is met with resistance. Their notebooks hold only title of song and page number. My notebooks written as an outline for practice and what and how to study ideas/suggestions is much more interactive. We do those things at lessons and I expect them to go home and do what was the content of the lesson and prepare for our next lesson together.

The piece isn't completed until I say it's completed. It is next to impossible to get their attention on making improvements, and filling in the missing gaps, in their playing.

This is a product of the fun, fun, fun, concept of teaching music. It produces shallowly and we need depth if we are to become "musicians".

I try to work with cheerful motivation until the student discovers their true capacity and can "eat a full course meal at my table". Snacks, and fast food are great in their place, but the "whole enchilada" is much better is we can get them to do the work.

My beginners learn to have this work ethic - their brains are being used and developed and their ambitions musically are aspiring to them. They find joy in learning. They learn my approach and routine within a few lessons. They sit down focused and ready to use all of the lesson time productively. And, they learn how to practice.

I try to balance their other demands in life and can adjust the pace or assignment to accomodate them. I try to be very aware of how they are feeling at each lesson, and what they are ready to do.

I like John's premise that they are here to work, and he discovers what that is by seriously loading the student up. It does tell you a lot about the student's work ethics and you can adjust appropriately from the outcome.

Time is of the essence, we should learn to use it properly. So is effort, consistent is best, consistently "enough"!

Betty

Thank you, Betty, for saying it so well. You should have been a writer!

I am new to the forums (my 2nd post) and as an adult learner who has been with the same teacher for 4 1/2 years - what I did was ask my instructor to teach me in a different way. He created a different format that the past and it is like a refreshment in the learning process.

Depends on how well versed the instructor you have is - personally, I have one of the best.

You are indeed fortunate - teachers need to have a repertoire of teaching techniques which they can use to work with various students.

Betty:

You speak my mind! Let me make an analogy to tennis. When I was in high school, I took tennis lessons. I was never meant to be a professional tennis player; I didn't even make my high school's competitive team. However, I changed instructor/coach because I wanted more than "fun fun fun" lessons. I actually wanted to be a decent player since one of my friends was ranked #1 in California.

Fortunately for us serious teachers, there are music schools in most cities to satisfy the needs for people who want "fun fun fun" piano lessons.

Emptied. Hold off a day. I'm stuck on a mega-translation, have a thought, but have another 5,000 words on car parts floating in my head.

You guys are spelling it wrong. As a four-letter word it is spelled FUNN.