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#959846 - 02/16/08 10:47 AM Can you read this? Give it a try!
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
My granddaughter, age 12, sent this to me today. It comes from a long set of attachments being forwarded only if the recipient can read it. I'm happy to say, suprisingly, I could read it! The explanation about it written within the contents is very interesting!

i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! if you can raed tihs forwrad it

I hpoe you enojyed it!

Btety

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#959847 - 02/16/08 10:52 AM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
nutchai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 227
Loc: Australia, Western Australia
LOL yeah I've seen that before. Quite amazing
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nUtChAi

Kawai K-5

"You are the music while the music lasts" - T.S. Eliot (1888 - 1965)

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#959848 - 02/16/08 12:55 PM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
dvs cycles Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 158
Loc: SoCal
I forwarded that one. Boy did my spell check hate it!

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#959849 - 02/16/08 02:00 PM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Waht fun. I vtoe all our ptsos be slepled jsut so!
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#959850 - 02/16/08 03:29 PM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
mahlzeit Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Netherlands
keyboardklutz: you didn't do it right. \:D
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#959851 - 02/16/08 03:36 PM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Dluy eitded.
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#959852 - 02/16/08 04:06 PM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
jazzwee Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
That't pretty amazing! For a moment I thought I was dyslexic \:D
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#959853 - 02/16/08 06:37 PM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5933
Loc: Down Under
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Waht fun. I vtoe all our ptsos be slepled jsut so! [/b]
Mnay of thme arleady aer!
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#959854 - 02/16/08 07:57 PM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3160
When students are concerned about being able to read music, which most are, I have them read that scrambled paragraph to illustrate that people read patterns rather than phonetically, and that they will read the language of music notation in much the same way when they learn it.

Many people express relief upon hearing this, and it seems to help them in their progress.

The only caveat is that some younger people cannot read the "Cambridge University" because they have never seen those exact words before, and thus do not yet have that exact pattern in their memory.
_________________________
Music teacher and piano player.

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#959855 - 02/17/08 01:01 AM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Reading music is very different though. The order of stuff is what it's about.

Good point rocket. I'm afraid of trams because I don't know what they look like (so I can't see them coming). In Brussels I kept nearly walking in front of them. I'm sure that's how the first fatal train casualty happened.
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#959856 - 02/17/08 03:32 AM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Betty’s Cambridge example demonstrates the extent to which the inner letters of a word can be scrambled and still be intelligible ... albeit with some bat-eyed compensating cerebral effort ... like cvs cycles, my dyslexia-barren spell-check had a red-letter day.

Care should be exercised in wrongly equating the mumbo jumbo to the sight-reading of music ... words are read with a sequential alphabetic
sweep of the eye ... it’s a different kettle of fish with keyboard music ... the sweep of the eye is now asked to create “order” (thanks your Majesty) SIMULTANEOUSLY out of perhaps 10 symbolic bits of information (2 hands =10 fingers) .

But tipping a hat to the extraordinary genius of our phonetic word application ... here’s a nice little teaser which the brilliant Frenchman
Champollion deciphered ... (100-day Napoleon at the time, liked the fact that they shared half a name) ... having discovered a cartouche (an oval ring around hieroglyphic symbols) representing the Pharoah PTOLEMY ... what is the name the Frog deciphered on the second cartouche?

The prize is a ski-run down Mount Everest ... however, you have to get to the top under your own steam ... break a leg!!

web page

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#959857 - 02/17/08 03:47 AM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
ribbit?
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#959858 - 02/17/08 04:46 AM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
If it looks like a frog and croaks like a frog ... Bon jour... A votre sante.

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#959859 - 02/17/08 10:03 AM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3160
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:

Care should be exercised in wrongly equating the mumbo jumbo to the sight-reading of music ... words are read with a sequential alphabetic
sweep of the eye ... it’s a different kettle of fish with keyboard music ... the sweep of the eye is now asked to create “order” (thanks your Majesty) SIMULTANEOUSLY out of perhaps 10 symbolic bits of information (2 hands =10 fingers) . [/b]
I was referring to the reading of patterns that is similar when reading words as it is in reading notation, i.e. a root chord in notation has a pattern...glancing at it, and identifying a single note of it, such as the root note, allows the mind to know the other two notes without having to "phonetically" spell out each note individually. It is this reading of patterns that is similar, but yes, there is more to it, as you say.
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Music teacher and piano player.

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#959860 - 02/17/08 10:33 AM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Only if you're an improviser. Otherwise you need to 'clock' exactly where things are vertically.
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#959861 - 02/17/08 11:09 AM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11685
Loc: Canada
Ok, my experience decades ago when I wasn't reading because I didn't know note names - I played a lot of Clementi and he seems to use predictable patterns which I got used to. You glance at the Alberti bass and in one swoop of the eye you see where the notes are going and can hear them. The fingers group themselves into the familiar grooves on the familiar keys with the familiar sound and for the most part you're off and ready. The progression suggests itself, and sure enough, it's there. You do end up playing exactly. What I'm learning to do now - and that is a deliberate choice - is to also read the notes individually, know what they are, so that I'm not playing what I assume is there, but what is there. But often the appearnce of the note groupings already indicates that: there are different notes so the pattern is broken, alerting the eye. That's a very subjective description of reading.

The same for a run: It's a straight line of notes, it begins with G, ends with G, and with the melody in your head a certain succession of notes is already plausible and anticipated (which again can be a trap, with accidental improvisation if you're not alert and actually reading). But to some degree the mechanism that lets you read hte as the holds true - except that the correct notes are there within the anticipated shape. Does this hold true, or does it not? Is anticipation, familiarity, and a sense of how things are composed a friend, foe, or both?

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#959862 - 02/17/08 11:38 AM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
I'd like to provide a different thought here:

If the brain (some can, some can't)sees this mish mash of letters and can treat it like perfectly spelled words allowing you to read this example fairly easily - isn't the brain absolutely capable of accurately learning to reach music both vertically and horizontally without trouble - along with coordination of hand shapes (vertically) and in movement between beats.

Last week Danny Niklas said something about finding notes without using a hand shape to block them with - I totally disagree and have taught my students to prepare their hand shape for a handful of notes that create a string that will break down into being played one at a time in selected fingering order.

For me, this may be an outcome of having accompanied choral and vocal solo performers at a young age - starting at 12 - giving out notes, following parts, playing the accompaniment. Knowing the shapes of the moving parts. Perhaps those who accompany have learned to do this with their hands and fingers automatically to keep track of 4 moving parts.

I like the way I sightread, it works quickly and efficiently for me, and my students can do it too, with a little hand and eye training. It's all about intervals and moving parts.

Betty

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#959863 - 02/17/08 11:49 AM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3160
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Only if you're an improviser. Otherwise you need to 'clock' exactly where things are vertically. [/b]
No, this is the opposite of improvising. It is being able to identify written patterns of notes in written music.

I am talking about reading a vertical line of written music, and being able to quickly identify a pattern in that vertical line such as a chord that is played with one hand, and then reading the other note(s) in that vertical line without having to spell out the chord note for note because you have identified the pattern.
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Music teacher and piano player.

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#959864 - 02/17/08 02:50 PM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
With respect Rocket88,

I know what you are putting over ... that identifying the outer notes of a chord help in providing a "shorthand" identification of the
requisite interval span ... but notation is so fraught with variations of, what amount to the same note patterns, to undo the prospect of an off-the-cuff chord sight-reading shortcut.

To make the point here are four measures from Jerome Kern’s "All the Things You Are" in Ab to test the shortcut theory .

Are you really able to snap up the hand shape for the chords under
"You ... are ... the... promised ... kiss of ... spring ... time" ...
or did you have to carefully identify the notes and the hand-shape initially ... while obviously chiming in the role of the left hand ... and hoping with a re-run of the 4 measures that you will have remembered the chord hand shapes?

My finding is that these hand shapes only come
with dutiful practice when muscle and aural memory
help in meeting the requisite tempo.

web page

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#959865 - 02/17/08 03:10 PM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11685
Loc: Canada
Just tried it. The only handicap was that I've been back at the piano only a few months, did not read notes 30 years ago, and the Ab key signature is still unfamiliar. So I had to take a moment to know which four notes get flatted. I expected it to be hard. It wasn't. My main need now is to add the notes to the shape which is backward.

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#959866 - 02/17/08 03:13 PM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11685
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Last week Danny Niklas said something about finding notes without using a hand shape to block them with - I totally disagree and have taught my students to prepare their hand shape for a handful of notes that create a string that will break down into being played one at a time in selected fingering order
Betty, that was in answer to my question - We were looking at the physical component. One can be rigid and claw-like about it, or softer with alive fingers, and this is what was being discussed. You can't really come to a chord and arrange your fingers afterward, so what we come down with has to be that hand shape, but in trying to bring one note out more than others as in voicing the fingers still have to be alive. 30 years ago I would have had a relatively tight claw.

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#959867 - 02/17/08 03:19 PM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
Marty in Minnesota Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1178
Loc: Minnesota
All I have to say about the original posting is:

Lysdexics Untie!
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Marty in Minnesota

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#959868 - 02/17/08 03:23 PM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5933
Loc: Down Under
keystring said:
My main need now is to add the notes to the shape which is backward.[/b]

I'm not sure this is backward, keystring. I think it's the best way to read music. You see the whole shape first, and this makes playing the actual notes easier because they have a context. We learn the basic concepts first - that pitch is represented vertically, and duration horizontally - before learning exact note positions. Or at least that's how I teach it.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#959869 - 02/17/08 03:25 PM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Reading the outside fingers in a chord first - the 1 - 5, it's like bread for a sandwich. Putting the inner notes in is the filling - like roast beef, cheese, etc. The 1-5 are the "frame".

Quickly recognizing intervals help the hand shape up into position (I know a lot of people hate that word) but I don't have another word for it.
L to L 3rd, 5th, 7th
S to S 3rd, 5th, 7th
L to S 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th
S to L 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th

The 1-5 degrees are with 5 fingers, the 6ths, 7ths, 8ths, are because the 2nd finger moved away from the 1st finger which stayed in position:
RH
C D E F G A B C
1 2 3 4 5
1 - 2 3 4 5
1 - - 2 3 4 5
1 - - - 2 3 4 5

Betty

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#959870 - 02/17/08 04:39 PM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11685
Loc: Canada
Thanks, Currawong - In that case I had half the equation for 30 years, and got the other half recently. It could be worse.

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#959871 - 02/19/08 08:08 PM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3160
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
With respect Rocket88,

I know what you are putting over ... that identifying the outer notes of a chord help in providing a "shorthand" identification of the
requisite interval span ... but notation is so fraught with variations of, what amount to the same note patterns, to undo the prospect of an off-the-cuff chord sight-reading shortcut.
/URL] [/b]
I was not referring to simply reading the outer notes of a chord and assuming it is such and such, although with a lot of music, such as Clementi Sonatinas written in C, for example, such an approach is reliable.

Instead, I was referring to reading the entire chord, both outer and inner notes, as a pattern.

If you go back to the original scrambled mess posted by Betty, you will find that just the outer two letters is insufficient to a correct reading of the scrambled word. Those need to be in the proper place (according to the research), but the inner letters are just as important, otherwise if two different words had the same outer letters, but different inner ones, how would one read either correctly?

Thus, when I look at a chord, I don't just see the outer notes, but rather the entire chord, which usually registers as a pattern, which, when related to the key signature, results in my playing the proper chord.

And, when a chord appears with additional notes to be played by the other hand (which often add up to a larger chord), my mind sees aqain the entire chord/pattern.

This is also true with seeing scale runs, or thirds, or any other pattern...my mind reads it as a pattern, and hopefully, I can play it!

It is only when faced with the unfamiliar that one must go slowly, and "parse" out the music, and commit it to muscle memory, as you correctly illustrate in your post.

What you say about muscle memory is thus completely applicable here...if you study and play piano long enough, you gain muscle memory for many chords, runs, thirds, fourths, etc, in the keys that you are familiar with, and therefore reading music in those keys is, for the most part, reading a series of familiar patterns that quickly register with the mind.

Thus your thought is correct:

"My finding is that these hand shapes only come
with dutiful practice when muscle and aural memory
help in meeting the requisite tempo."[/b]

Once you have learned those hand shapes, another piece in the same key using those hand shapes will be quite easy for you to play.

Which is analagous to learning written words, and thus having them in your memory, which is why I mentioned that youngsters, (and those for whom English is a second language,) sometimes cannot read "Cambridge University" in Betty's post because they have not yet read/learned those exact words, and thus do not have them in their minds as patterns.
_________________________
Music teacher and piano player.

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#959872 - 02/19/08 08:26 PM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
Canto Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 44
That is amazing! Spelling is still important I assume? :-)

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#959873 - 02/21/08 07:38 AM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Before this thread goes moribund ...

Nobody has risen to the bait of the PTOLEMY teaser ... but in line with the marvel of our system of spelling where alphabetic symbols convey sounds ... which in combination produce
instantly recognizable words ... which in turn trigger imaginative processes in the brain ...

The Frenchman Campollion ... after nearly 2 millennia of hieroglyph inertia ... some even believed that Egypt had been colonized by the
Chinese (an apparent association with picture-writing) ... allowed his mind to conjure the absurd thought that the ancient monument writings could just be PHONETIC ... seems obvious now ...
but by aligning the first 5 symbols with the Pharoah PTOLEMY in the top cartouche ... and substituting the letters . LEOP.T..
in the lower cartouche ... the name of a later queen leapt out of the canvas ... CLEOPATRA.

Chaps ... the Everest challenge is officially closed ... so you can put away those skiis!!

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#959874 - 02/22/08 02:17 AM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
It was interesting to me that most posters did not say whether or not they could read the original posting - easily - with effort - or not at all.

Was it fun? Was it ridiculous? Was it frustrating? It is trivia? Is it important?

I'm glad there was an explanation written along with the test, because I would not have understood what might be happening that it was readable. How could that be? All those years in learning to spell and take spelling test and to depend on spell check!

Thanks for participating!

Betty

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#959875 - 02/22/08 03:56 AM Re: Can you read this? Give it a try!
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11685
Loc: Canada
I wonder if this is more so for the English language. If truth be told, one must guess at the meaning of words. I remember that one of the "spelling" strategies in primary school was one in which the shape of words was set out, and a student to find the word that fit the shape. Or students traced the shape. Ponder this:

tough, through, though, bough

English is the only language that does that to my knowledge. Therefore we must develop a "guess what this word might be if only the language were logical" approach, and whatever faculties we use are similar to what we use in music.

Here is a fun one, though:

punos

It occurred as a typesetting mistake in a local newspaper, in an article describing a performance. "The blabla orchestra had a nice punos." punos?

The word "sound" had been inserted upside-down. Can you see it?

sound punos

In fact, once you know that it is the word sound upside down, can you still see PUNOS or do you end up seeing an upside-down "sound"?

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