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Lalakeys, you're right. I thought all this time that only 3 & 4 were joined together, but it's 3, 4, and 5. Thanks.

As adult learners the challenge is not only to be able to physically move these fingers, but also differentiate them if we have never done so.

The mobility of the fourth finger has been a source of concern for keyboardists for centuries. Just don't do what Schumann did!

Don
Kansas City

We're getting a bit OT here, not that I'm one to complain. I remember I wrote this computer program to re-enforce 'finger finding' some years ago. Have a go. I don't think it makes a blind bit of difference. http://www.box.net/shared/7nsd6q800g

Well, I certainly did not say that all one could do was "hope" it would go away. I just chose not to get into the specifics of how to deal with it, as it really depends on the individual as to what the problem is. Of course, as a teacher I would address an issue head-on with appropriate repertoire and exercises.

Interesting program! But you have found that it didn't help your students?

Perhaps it is because in something like that, it relies mostly upon tactile, whereas I think the ear is much better at leading the fingers. When you hear what note is next, it's not an issue of pressing the right button at the right time, but completing the musical phrase, which has much more meaning.

And I assumed that as a teacher, you would have. Sorry, Morodienne, it was not meant as a comment on your teaching, but a recounting of my experience at the time.

KS

No, I found it didn't help me. The time element gave it some interest for the students but I don't think any persevered and I didn't push them. I think I could do it in under 25 secs. edit: I think 25 secs must have been a one handed version.

Kbk, tried your program. Effect: It reassigned new names to the keyboard spots. I.e. Q is now 5. No association with fingers, just with the keys. :rolleyes:

Actually I did wonder if touch typists could do it faster?

Do I get your meaning? Interesting.

It's a raw experience as I perceived it. No meaning: for either of us to extrapolate.

Playing an instrument for me is a dialogue between the sound that "this spot" holds, and "this spot" pulls my finger to it. It is an association of sound and instrument, with the fingers aiming toward it. At this level there is no "finger recognition". The difficulty of physically being able to move a fingers might come in, but that is mechanical.

Finger recognition becomes a problem for me when sheet music suddenly indicates "4" if I don't know which finger is 4. It is necessary to know the fingers by name for the sake of communication: the composer, publisher, or a teacher who pencils in a number.

Earlier this year I took part in something that Betty creates for her beginners, which is an actual exercise in making sure that you know the name of your fingers. However childish or silly for an adult, I went through the trouble of doing that because indeed, I did not associate fingers with numbers. There was that, and being able to recite the note names in reverse, AGFEDCB. It's not very artistic - it's purely utilitarian.

I'd say it didn't take more than two weeks to have it solid, and then simply reinforce it: think of a number and get the correct finger to say "Here I am". Play beginner music where the fingers are numbered, say the number while using that finger, and fiercely associate finger and number. There didn't seem to be more to it than that: deliberate goal of associating a name to a finger - there are only five of them, apparently.

Now, for the toes ...

Try this one I just made. Much more interesting: http://www.box.net/shared/krkhi8l8g8
Helps to close your eyes.

Raw data:
As written above, I can already recognize fingers because of what I did earlier in the year. I went through the exercise a first time concentrating on finger-number and that went smoothly. Only when I was finished, I had trouble typing because I was associating the keyboard with numbers. The exercise reinforces fingers somewhat, but it's going toward the keyboard as well.

Sound: (2nd time)
The sound has about the loudness of a mosquito ranging from a foot from the ear to by your nose. Left hand tones are almost absent. This computer's a bit funky.

I heard the right hand tones first, and my mind went solfege.
1 la 2 ti 3 do 4 re 5 mi

That put me into a minor mode or minor frame of mind, and from there the right hand notes poured along like oil. I've associated music in this way on any instrument my whole life. But I was no longer conscious of fingers. I was aiming toward the sound.

I finally managed to catch some of the RH sounds after a LH and it made no sense to me. 2 seemed to have become "do" and LH 3 was "fa" but the other intervals didn't make sense. I couldn't get oriented. Besides, a minute ago 2 would have been "ti". I couldn't hear most of the LH notes.

So I drew a map "la ti do re mi" and counted down a fifth from RH 2 to see what you had done, knowing that 2 was "ti", and realized LH 3 was "mi".

From there I could see you were just continuing the scale:
LH 5 do 4 re 3 mi 2 fa 1 sol RH 1 la 2 ti etc.

What I had expected originally was that LH and RH would be the same thing. If RH was in minor mode, I expected LH to also be in minor mode. I also expected LH and RH to be separate units, I think because usually on a keyboard they're not side by side as in your configuration.

What I had expected was something like:

LH la ti do re mi RH la ti do re mi

that way I could be typing along the same intervals within the left and right hand.

It was easy after that to just reorganize my imaginary keyboard to be one long scale. The finger association was completely lost once it became a continuous scale. I think it would have been easier if both of them could have had the same interval progression and mood.

In fact, what we have is a major mode in the left hand, and a minor mode in the right hand.

For me it's like learning to play another instrument. I already have associations of finger-to-tone for alto recorder, soprano and bass recorder, guitar, violin, piano. I don't want to learn still another one for a computer keyboard, and that's what I was doing. Sorry, it doesn't do anything for finger recognition for me.

Just for the record.....I believe that finger 4 and 5 are the only ones that use the same tendon...

H1

Here is a diagram from an old book passed on to me:
piano hand

(Hohmanns Klavier-Schule - diagram & explanation by Dr. Heinrich Schmidt, seminar teacher of Bayreuth; around 1905)

KS

I would think that even a non-pianist in this day and age has plenty of practice isolating fingers since, as I am doing this very instant, most of us type at computer keyboards so can command all ten fingers more or less independently. Except of course for the two-finger method, which, I will grant you, is less effective at the piano than it is at the computer

But that in no way approaches the basic question: How far is finger 5 from 4?

My fourth finger has the tendonsy to not want to move as I command it and finds itself buried in between my other fingers.

My fifth finger is not at the end of my hand but at the end of my wrist.

If I were a jazz or light music pianist or even played singing Chopin or even better Mendelssohn, my fifth finger would probably be even further away from my other fingers somewhere over in the brass or strings section.

Hmm. But where do you find it?

When I play well, I find it "in" the piano keyboard.

There is evidence to suggest that my body finds it in different "places" depending on different contexts and through various (sometimes conflicting) internal mappings. Sometimes, although "me" body seems to know where it is, "I" find I can only find it to use the way I want by first looking at it. I can see a "4" written above a note, say "4" to myself and in the heat of a passage think I am playing with "4" and look down to confirm when the figure or passage doesn't work and see ...."3"

My conscious mind or "I" ultimately finds it usually entirely based on neural / brain processes and behavioral habits which take place principally below the level of my conscious awareness.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080711135447.htm

Piano teachers who are able to teach their students (not necessarily consciously) how to access levels of information which the body is hiding from us would seem to have higher potential to effectively teach sensitive listening==feeling skills.