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I agree with you bitwrangler. It is interesting to consider how a court interpreter will often hold someone's future in their hands. I do think you could 'up' the piano teacher's ramifications though - for many, they hold a person's quality of life.

Keystring:

I sort of see where you are coming from. I am not in MTNA, but I am actively involved in MTAC, which is the state association for California. Just like all volunteer organizations, it is the members that make each chapter/branch strong. It is unfortunate that there are teachers who do absolutely nothing except to pay their dues once a year--I don't even know why they bother; can't they just save $111 per year by not renewing their membership??

Worse yet, year after year we have to deal with teachers who do participate in events, but refuse to (or are reluctant to) accept any responsibilities. They pick the easiest jobs to do, and sometimes they just don't show up, so other people have to be called in to cover them.

So I do think, Keystring, that some of the concerns you raise about the professionalism of members _is_ warranted, because I have witnessed many examples that would corroborate your concern. Unfortunately, we can't kick members out for simply being lazy. They actually have to do something pretty bad (like stealing students, or claiming a transfer student as their own within the first six months of instruction) in order to be terminated from the association. Sheer teaching ineptitude, I'm afraid, isn't grounds for removal from membership.

Keyboardklutz, a teacher's effect on a student's life can be much higher than that of a court interpreter. The kid who takes lessons because his parents want him to is not going to be that affected by a bad teacher, though he might develop a love of music through a good teacher and who knows where that will lead. But imagine someone taking lessons who does love music and has a passion for it. Imagine this person taking lessons from someone who does not know how to teach them to read music, or thinks for this group of students it's not all that necessary, or some of the other skills that have been identified among transfer students as "necessary but missing". The student struggles because he is missing essential skills enabling him to play. A teacher will know that is the case, and a new teacher can help him go from struggling to reasonable proficiency. Talent is good, but talent is not all there is.

A student does not know this, however. A student who has not been given the essential skills and building blocks knows playing through the lense of his experiences. Playing an instrument, any instrument, is a hit and miss thing full of struggle with no certainty of improvement, and worse, with that kind of experience he will believe that he personally lacks something since others can play and he can't. He has not experienced guidance toward proficiency. It is a learned impotence, learned helplesness, and a false view of how things are that stay with him and may lead to not playing music, or viewing it as a struggle, or viewing teacher input as useless. If he began with a passion for music such a false viewpoint can be painful. Every time such a student hears music the old yearning may come back but he "knows" that he "can't". The divorce settlement in court wends its way to a conclusion and is a single event. Music, however, is always there even in its absence.

Now, an organization such as the MTNA cannot be responsible for "all that". the fact they at they foster awareness, provide opportunities in the community plus handing teachers tools in various ways is something extremely positive. The impact of a single private teacher, including the positive impact, should not be under-estimated.

A-a-argh, determination not to post in this thread won't work. We students and parents should be sensitized to such issues, methinks.

It will strike most of us as odd to think of ourselves as having been "claimed" as though there were an ownership involved. I am certain that this parlance is aimed mostly in the direction of up and coming students because when that student becomes famous he will have a list of "student of...." which will make others want to run and learn from one of the of's.

By the same token, a finisher-type teacher (I understand they often do not want to lay the ground work and will have a beginner-intermediate teacher do that so that he can work with the results of that first foundation) is a ticket toward performance, coupled with how the new musician plays, of course. "Studied with..." I understand can be a door opener, directly or indirectly.

I think that we students can nicely dance around that by saying "I am currently studying with NewGuy. Until three weeks ago I was a student of OldGuy." If we don't know this convention, however, we would be saying "I am NewGuy's student." We ought to know.

These subtleties would not tend to matter for casual pursuits, I would imagine, but would have to be upheld pro forma.
.......
Come to think of it, I can see a connection in some translation scenarios. In the translation of an artistic work, the name of the translator is published and sometimes there are royalties involved. The artistry of both the author and the translator is at stake - similar to the talent and work of the student combined with the work and talent of the teacher.

It has happened that a client will make changes to a translator's work, introducing error or faulty style. In that case (happened to me once) the translator will stipulate that he does NOT want any connection to this work and does not want his name to appear, because the translator's reputation is reflected by the impression created by the work.

Well, apologies for paraphrasing but that does sum me up for the first 20 years of serious study. Luckily, in later life I fell into the arms of someone who knew how to play the piano. As someone who lives and breaths music, I suppose my life was nearly ruined.

I kinda baulked at the 'claiming' thing too.

That is quite a statement, and it is also quite plausible.

Membership is not dependent on certification. Several years ago, MTNA had no certification whatsoever, then they started a certification program, but it was a joke and pretty much anybody with a little money and some paperwork could get certified.

Nowadays, they've tightened things up, and there is a general knowledge requirement (university coursework or an exam), and a peer-review of your performance and teaching (although the standards aren't very high.)

There are really two sides to MTNA. One is for the teachers and the other is for the students. There are student activities that are promoted, especially at the local level, but the national organization is mostly for the teachers. The code of ethics is basically a reaction to bad things people have done in the past, and I think it has some problems. (For example, you can't really say that another teacher is bad, even if every single one of their students has no sense of tone and can't play 8th notes.) But there are some good things - the magazine helps keep people connected to what's going on (although it's often more gossip than pedagogy), the group insurance plans are useful for private teachers, and the national conference is great fun.

I hope that clears some things up. MTNA is not without its problems, but it's basically a decent bunch of people.

Kreisler, I actually edited the part that you have quoted because it was not well thought through and contained thoughts in the raw, and before I knew more about the MTNA. I wonder whether it would be good to have your quote reflect the current wording - or does it matter?

Doesn't really matter. I was just posting some random thoughts on MTNA that I thought might add to the discussion.

To Keystring,

I don't think I'd worry so much about the fate of piano students. Most piano teachers have something to teach a student, if not a list a mile long. A student also knows when his/her teacher is lacking knowledge, and will eventually quit if they feel the need to. Parents also notice things at recitals and elsewhere and make decisions for their children.

Everybody eventually finds the right path.

No they don't.

Candyman, you are probably an excellent teacher and possibly in your own journey you were fortunate to have discerning parents and perhaps fell to the right teachers at the right time. That is not the case with everyone.

I am not wondering idly. There are personal stories, people I have come in contact with, teachers I know personally, patching together what I read. Piano is my second instrument and maybe, because you cannot help produce a note on the instrument that resembles a note, the effects are less devastating.

Yes, a student may sense something is wrong. But he won't know what, and is just as likely to blame himself because the adulation of teachers is relatively high. And if parent and student sense something is wrong and go to the next teacher who does not address the original problem, then the problem remains, they sense something is wrong, and go to the next. They gain the reputation of "teacher hoppers" and no decent teacher will touch them. They're stuck.

There are too many pitfalls. Look at the phenomenon of "market demand". People who don't know what music making entails want to progress "fast", be able to play admirable pieces, and the essential tools of music such as note reading, effective posture and body movement, mastery of rhythm, are meaningless abstracts. Teachers have a hard time getting students to focus on these things. Enough teachers will then cater to the "market demand" and give the client what he wants: it can also be seen as "motivation". Unfortunately those teachers will be seen as desireable because of the fancy pieces being played somehow and the apparent advancing of the student. But if you don't have the tools: note reading, body use, technique, understanding of tempo you're going to founder at some point. And they won't know why!

Those are the students who show up at the studios of new teachers at some high grade level but incapable of reading notes, developing a piece, or whatever: read this forum to get examples. Those are the lucky ones, if the new teacher can recognize what is missing and can get them to do it.

Is this your actual belief, or are you trying to reassure me.

I surmise that a teacher has the perspective of his own experience. You have your own students coming into your studio who are all being taught by you. You get the perspective of a variety of students all being taught in the manner in which you yourself teach. You will not be experiencing a variety of teachers and teaching styles, except peripherally through the results that you may see here and there. It is not all ideal and some people are falling through the cracks badly.

Keyboardklutz has told us that it took him 20 years to find a teacher through whom he could learn.

And that by chance. The teacher who I was having lessons from happened to have a world famous piano teacher as her mum!

Hence my proposal another thread of a "gray area" or "meeting place" for exploring elements that don't fit anywhere else.

Getting back OT, I have been a member of MTNA and Wisconsin Music Teachers Association since 1998. The group of teachers that I have come to know in this organization have been extremely helpful to me and to my students. Programs that are put on by the organization can directly improve my students (like Master Classes), or indirectly (teacher seminars). We often have round table discussions about various subjects that all teachers encounter, and it's open for all to participate. We even read a book together (one or two chapters each) and reported to one another so we didn't have to take the time to read the whole book. It was a very interesting experience and a relevant book to piano teachers.

No organization is not without it's problems, but I'd say for the most part it was been a helping hand, especially when I was first starting out in teaching. The most valuable thing it has provided, however, are the District and Statewide auditions, which have high standards of performance and theory knowledge. My students love the awards and the way these are conducted better than the Solo & Ensemble contests at their schools. Without MTNA, this would not be possible.

Sure it would.

MTNA is not the only organization in the country. There are places where independent groups and other national groups are very active. For example: Guild, the National Certificate Program, the American Conservatory of Music, community music school programs, various Suzuki programs and schools, etc...

Also keep in mind that MTNA isn't just for piano, and there are organizations that serve other instruments as well, NATS and ASTA probably being the big two, and IAJE is really starting to take off these days as well. (And it includes piano also!)

The impression is that without the MTNA (and possibly the other organizations mentioned by Kreisler) the music teaching/learning world would be less rich in resources and opportunities.

I'm not positive, buy I believe that it is MENC which sponsors the Solo/Ensemble Festivals in schools. MENC is more oriented to the classroom music teacher, but parallels MTNA in many ways.

Well, it has been my understanding that NATS is quite political in their judging, based on whose student you are. I have not heard of the other two, and do not think they have anything locally (or if they do, I havent' heard anything from them). MTNA has strict guidelines to help prevent judges from knowing who is who's student, or what the student's last name is. I use MTNA for my voice students as well, and it is a very good experience for them. MENC, as John mentioned is mainly for the school music teachers, and their Solo/Ensemble contest has varied results. The judges aren't regulated because they are in such a need for a lot of judges they'll take anyone, even those that are not qualified to judge at a particular level. One judge this past year told my piano student that his Clementi Sonatina Op. 36 No. 3 was way too fast and proceeded to have him replay it at a Moderato tempo. This is just one example of many that I've had with Solo/Ensemble contest.

I'm wondering whether standards for judging the public-school solo & ensemble contests vary from state to state, or even region to region. Here in Illinois I believe that judges for the high school contest are required to have a master's degree in music or be faculty members at the college level. This year I accompanied 14 high school students and they all were judged by university professors (some from Illinois State, some from Vandercook, some from small private colleges in northern Illinois). I think that many college professors view this as a recruiting opportunity, because many of the kids who are playing Mozart flute concertos or Beethoven violin sonatas in high school will be shopping for a good college music program.

And some schools hire judges to do a masterclass/clinic a week or so before the actual contest. My daughter's high school did this; the flute professor from ISU spent 20 minutes with each flute soloist, giving a "mini-lesson" and coaching each performer and accompanist on their solo. Playing at the actual solo/ensemble contest felt like playing a college jury exam, complete with scales (but unlike a "jury", there was only one comment sheet!)

Maybe they do things differently in Wisconsin, or in your school district--but the students I accompany for solo & ensemble contest get a lot of "bang for the buck"!