Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum About National-State-Local Purpose & Ethics of MTNA Members

To Keystring:

Everybody does eventually find the right path. As a student looking back, it's easy to blame one's teachers. Perhaps not so easy to look at our own part in it all. For instance I couldn't take much criticism when I was young, and was quite obstinate at times.

I didn't find my excellent teacher until I was 22. I started at 8. The other teachers helped me to the best of their abilities. I was playing a lot of music besides the teachers' choices by the time I was 12. So, I learned many things from them.

It's better to understand that in any given field you have people functioning at various levels of competency, assuming basic competency of course. Should we get rid of all the teachers who aren't stellar?

Should society apologize to all the people who didn't get on the most efficient path as students?

Some very interesting questions! I believe that's part of the rationale that MTNA has of gathering all teachers in and helping to advance from whereever they are.

Candyman, I'm hesitating because it's too broad a topic to be contained as a subtopic. I have read some of your other posts and your perception seems to be the same as mine: it is best to have a good teacher in the beginning because that is when the foundations are laid. Both solution to existing problems and prevention to them exist in that insight. Blame does not enter into it - those of us who took no childhood lessons could not do so anyway - rather to know where you are now and what should be done.

However, this is not part of this thread. I do take exception to the idea that "everybody" finds his way. The 60 year old who tried several times and couldn't find the door did not find his way. It is not something that just happens. You have to go about it intelligently, or be informed, or become informed, so at least you know where to look for guidance and then trust that guidance. This is the student perspective.

Well said. Just because some have found their does not mean all will eventually. Many give up, blaming themselves for the failures of their teachers. Sometimes it is the student's fault, but what a shame when it isn't and they are made to think so. Ultimately, however, the responsibility does fall on the shoulders of the student. They must educate themselves on what to look for in a good teacher, and to evaluate how well the teacher is working out for them.

Thanks, Morodienne. That is the bottom line. It includes defining our goals. The first responsibility is ours.

MTNA doesn't have any judging guidelines whatsoever. It's up to the local associations to choose judges. If you have good ones, it's because you have a good local president!

Encouraging. At least you're meeting the nearly-disgruntled half way. I disagree about the 'they must educate themselves on what to look for'. Until you've been shown it, you'll never recognize it. I recognized my good piano teacher because 10 years earlier I had a world famous oboe teacher - I immediately saw something in common. Ultimately it is a shared responsibility - that is the magic.

Yes and no, kbk, though your oboe analogy makes a point - If you have an insight through any instrumental training you have some kind of point of reference.

I'm trying hard not to veer OT because this is a vast topic and doesn't fit in this thread. Self-education and responsibility for the first-time adult student who aims for a serious path begins by having an idea of what this means, and then being able to express it to a prospective teacher.

As worded by one teacher, many adults are after a "hobby" and goals as well as willingness to do certain things fall within that. Some teachers have had the experience that when they pushed certain things they met with resistance or lost the student. So lessons are geared in a certain direction, maybe lots of pieces, some general effects but not much emphasis on basic skills like note reading or technique, or just skimmed enough to get by. The adult student doesn't know a choice has been made and thinks this is how it is. Without a solid foundation he hits a ceiling at some point. In other cases the adult simply won't get through the door. Some teachers won't take adult students. The same teacher who will push certain things on little kids because some of these kids might end up going the professional path will eschew those things for adults.

Our world is very small. It consists of one teacher's studio and that becomes our reality of what music and learning is about. Some acquaintances eventually discovered it was about something different than they were experiencing and that led to discussion with their teachers. Those particular teachers had assumed things about what they were willing to do and what their goals were, and subsequent to this the lessons changed substantially. Some of the adults were shocked by what was involved - by now there is enough peer support that they held through.

The responsibility of the adult student consists of knowing what his goals are - this does not mean "I want to play pieces ABC like musician X - and be able to articulate this clearly to a prospective teacher, and also listen carefully to the response. The teaching approach is up to a techer and I can't tell much about that. But if the teacher gives a list of popular classical songs (and calls them songs), talks about the fun we'll have, and hauls out 20 Easy Classical Pieces To Impress Your Friends flipping through it randomly, I would not expect the attitude I'm looking for.

I would be looking for a teacher who knows how to teach to create a decent foundation and is willing to do so with an adult. To achieve this, I must be able to communicate my own attitude to a prospective teacher so that he knows where I'm coming from. What is stressed to the parent of a 5 year old child is not necessarily what will be stressed to an adult who has never taken formal lessons. It is important to be aware of that reality and address it.

The second responsiblity as an adult student is to take instructions seriously even if they seem trivial and meaningless.

I have been suspected of an elitist attitude. Not so. Nor do I expect the existence of a super teacher who will put me through some kind of paces that will magically turn me into a super musician by dint of following these amazing instructions. Basically I have reiterated what teachers have advised parents: the first teacher is the most important because that person lays down the foundations and you should make certain this is a good teacher. To me "good teacher" would define someone who understands how the instrument is played, understands music, and understands what a student must be taught and asked to do in order to bring this about (pedagogy). Would anyone dispute these three attributes, or say that any of the three is not essential? I'm not looking for a pedigree that says Curtis or "teacher of (famous people)". Just these three elements. I do feel chagrined that an elite attitude was read into my words.

In any case, that's where I came in. I thought a body was under discussion that has the purpose of regulating a profession according to qualifications and all my initial questions went off on the wrong foot. That is because in my own profession we are trying to work on just that.

But I have since discovered that this organization plays a supportive role for teachers of all ilks, providing opportunities in many ways that turn into benefits for students in performance opportunities, professional growth for teachers wherever they currently find themselves, and community awareness which can have tons of positive spin-offs.

That is why all of this is in a sense OT to this thread.

By the way, I don't know if anybody has posted links, so for those interested in hearing from the horse's mouth:

http://www.mtna.org/

http://www.mtnacertification.org/

http://pianoguild.com/

http://www.nationalmusiccertificate.org/

And an example of an independent group which (I think) is not affiliated with a national organization:

http://www.mthp.org/

FWIW, our state level organization puts together a listing of judges for local chapters to use.

Texas is pretty much a free-for-all.

The Michigan state organization also had a list of judges who had been through a state-approved training process. (Kind of like a 1-hour inservice seminar.)

There are no requirements to become a member, that's why it's important to be certified. Yes, it's administered by MTNA. When someone wants to search for a teacher, it only gives a list of those that are CERTIFIED.

Anyone can become a member, but why would you pay 100 bucks a year if you didn't actually want to take advantage of membership? I don't know any teachers that claim they are qualified to teach because they are a member. Being a member simply shows that you stay connected with other members and continue to learn about your profession.

Being certified, however, is a way to show you are "qualified" to teach. There aren't 7 levels of certification, there may be 7 steps, but either you are certified, or you aren't.

Thank you, cjp. Since I wrote that question I learned more about the organization. Among others, it supports teachers by giving more opportunities for students to perform, promotes music, gives chances for continued development, and I imagine helps private teachers break out of isolation. As a freelancer I know about the latter. When I first learned about the MTNA I thought that it functioned like my own professional organization and toward the same purposes and that is what prompted my question.

As a student, were I looking for a teacher, certification would mean something if I knew the merits of such certificatin. I am also open to the possibility that teachers might be qualified who are not certified, that there might be different criteria for judging etc. It seems to me that teaching music is both an art and a science for both the music and the teaching aspect. Such things are sometimes hard to "judge".

If you go to www.mtna.org, there is a link in the bottom left corner to find a certified teacher. The page it takes you to has an overview of what it means to be certified. You can search by location for such a teacher right then, or continue reading more in depth about the process.

Thanks, cjp, and I've seen that link and I think it's fantastic. It is a much better thing than trying to guess about teachers without knowing what to go on.

However, what I meant is that as a student or parent I don't know whether these are the only types of criteria that can be used, and that if I were to eliminate as choice all uncertified (by the MTNA) teachers, I could also be eliminating excellent teachers.

For example, one teacher here who by every consideration gives the impression of being a superb teacher has stated that he is not certified in this manner, and gives different indications that can help identify a probable good teacher. This is what I meant by "if I knew the merits of such certification". At the end of the day, I am not an expert in music teaching, and so there is a certain vulnerability in my ability to choose wisely. The presence of such certification may be one remedy, but probably not the only one.

On a different note, I noticed in passing that there was an MTNA conference in Canada. Does that organization have any role among Canadian teachers beyond that of exchanging ideas?

Over here, when I was looking for teachers and phoned the RCM some years back, whoever was on the phone recommended that I consider only those teachers that were certified by them, because a basic degree of knowledge plus teaching know-how would have been verified, while getting someone out of the yellow pages put me into totally uncharted waters. But one teacher eschewed such certification because he believed his credentials and experience, as well as not wanting for students, spoke for themselves.

In any case, I understand that this is not the main role of the MTNA. The supportive element that it provides is heartening to see.

Keystring -- You're exactly right about there being excellent teachers who AREN'T certified, myself being one of them! ha ha . . (Actually I'm in the process right now).

I continue to believe that word-of-mouth is probably one of the best ways to find a "good" teacher.

The conference in Canada: Our national conference for the FIRST time in the 130-year history was held outside our borders. This was a great collaborative conference with Canada! Pretty much the only role of MTNA in Canada is just the exchanging of ideas as you said; however, the Canadian RCM examinations have come into the USA (as the National Music Certificate Program), and we are working towards more collaboration, very exciting!

Yes, I've heard about the RCM exams coming across the border and being accepted with some reluctance. As an adult learner I did two of the theory exams last year. What struck me is that I was in a room full of people who had different teachers using different approaches having different philosophies, even different instruments, and all were sitting an exam demanding a given standard of knowledge and being able to use that knowledge. In Ontario, passing the theory exam along with practical exam of a given level will give high school credits. (I wonder if they would add that to my 1976 transcript).

You're correct about there being some reluctance. Most of this is due to the fact that we've never had anything like this before, plus the theory requirements are pretty tough for the typical student here. These requirements are currently being revised in order to accomodate teachers and students in the USA. RCM is investing HUGE amounts of time and resources in order to get us on board. And the program IS growing here, which I'm excited about!

Keystring, just curious, which exams did you take?

I took the grade 1 practical violin exam some years ago. I developed a problem through a defective instrument so that all halted. I'm considering discussing resuming it this year.

(Piano acquisition a year ago; no steady lessons yet)

Last year I wrote both the intermediate and advanced rudimentary theory, and I'll be working on basic harmony next.