I'll go first:

Follows simple instructions.

Do I detect some sarcasm???

Someone who will try to do anything I recommend but who will also ask challenging questions so that I have a chance to explain *why* I am making those suggestions!

Also, on an advanced level, a great student is someone who will sometimes do something different than what I have suggested and can come up with a logical reason for changing things.

One other thing: I like students who have opinions. If I play something at least two ways and say that I clearly prefer A but that B is equally valid, the student who will pick B fascinates me.

Maybe...

The discussion is on.

The perfect student will...

1) practice daily,
2) never miss a lesson,
3) enjoy performing in front of an audience,
4) understand complex, abstract ideas, and
5) LOVE classical music. :3hearts:

"Please describe the perfect student."

WHY?

I think the perfect student would be different for each kind of teacher out there, because personalities are so different. For me, I enjoy students who practice regularly, and are open with challenges they've had in a piece so that we can work together to help them through it.

All my students are perfect - they challenge me in many different ways, yet each have an unique set of characteristics. They provide me the opportunity to be my best, while helping them be their best. What more could I ask for?

I realize that sounds a bit "sappy" but who wants a studio full of so called perfect students? You'd have no personal challenges and your teaching would begin to suffer.

Piano Dad, you asked the perfect question!

.....Perfect!!

Because I've always had a hunch that the students that I really really like working with are not necessarily the kind of students that others like working with.

Just exploring this.

You're on the other side of the equation. Would you object to describing the perfect teacher?

Actually, I would have the same problem with that question.

I don't understand the attempt to identify a summum bonum.

'Good' teaching (or good studenting for that matter) is a set of characteristics that one would be willing to trade off against each other. There are lots of desirable or useful traits that might go into someone's characterization of a good student or a good teacher. I guess I didn't see the point of writing out a list and comparing to other lists, especially since I don't see that as getting us to any meaningful understanding of 'perfection.' I'm being a stickler about words, of course, but I guess I think they're important.

Now this is a different matter.

This IS a call to discuss those good characteristics and to argue (politely!) about why some people might put things on their personal list of good characteristics that might actually be on someone else's list of bad characteristics.

OK, on that one I might bite:

Here's a good student ....

Someone who is not simply a passive recipient of your wisdom or an imitator of your approach. Someone who may disagree with you and argue for a different view. Someone you may have to persuade instead of command by your awesome presence. Someone who you may agree to disagree with once in a while. Someone who may actually teach you something.

Here is food for thought: If perfect students (for some) are those who also think for themselves and might challenge this or that, might some students actually be undermining the process by seeking to be "perfect" (obedient, unquestioning) students?

My perfect student simply exhibits:
1) A greeting to me when coming in the door, "Hi!" (Smiles)
2) Often says "Thank You" when ready to leave,
(Smiles)
3) Says a farewell when leaving, "See you next week!" (Smiles)
4) Has a smile and an alert look to them during the 30 - 60 minutes of lesson.
5) Listens, acts, thinks, improves from week to week. Takes the piano lesson seriously enough to have practiced "enough".
6) Is building their integrity and values (among other things) through the study of music. Is a genuine person doing his or her best. No excuses, no explanations, no wasting time.

This kind of "perfect" is good enough for me and creates a warm and comfortable environment that we can equally match within each other - meeting of the minds.

"Perfect" is an illusion.

I really like John's "acceptance" and "pledge".

If my student's don't have these characteristics I listed from the beginning, I work toward help create them as habits as I think they are necessary to a good, working relationship together in music making.

"Enthusiasm" would you call it?

Betty

Here's the perfect student! . . . lets say her name was . . . Diane!

1. Was excited about playing the piano!
2. Practiced for hours and hours!
3. Did everything the teacher asked without questioning authority!
5. Used the exact fingering she gave me with no argument (okay, maybe once)!
6. Paid for books without having to get a phone call!
7. Paid her every month on time for lessons!
8. Came to the lessons prepared!
9. Phoned early for a makeup lesson!
10. Did exams!
11. Came back with theory done! Got 98% and 97% on theory exams, and teacher wondered where she lost the other 2 and 3 marks!
12. Listen to the teacher's every word! Took notes!
13. Laughed at the teacher's jokes!
14. Practiced as soon as I got home from the lesson!
15. Made her proud at recitals!
16. Came back to the lesson with questions!
17. Made her glad she chose to become a piano teacher!

Maybe that's why she kept me 2 1/2 hours for my one hour lesson! And I could call her at home whenever I wanted to!

She made me proud to be her student!

That reminds me...

I teach Chorus at school. This year, three of the new girls are absolutely wonderful--they even take notes in class!

If a student gives me those three things, which to me are politeness, enthusiams and appreciation, it's very seldom that such a student is not close to a "perfect student", for me.

:)Yikes!! feeling a little prickly today PD?? Your force on that straw man was simply breathtaking.

Persuasion and reasoning with students is the best part of being a piano teacher, especially with students who begin thinking for themselves and express their own artistic ideas. I teach a large number of adult students, (who demand reasons for everything I ask them to do). If they have a reason behind their thought process, I'm all ears, and can't imagine any successful contemporary teacher who feels otherwise.

Your fundamental assumption is that me saying "following simple instructions" indicates an autocratic style of leadership. Many things are up for debate, but a few really important things are not.

Should AIG pawn it's "illiquid assets" (there's the euphamism for the day), onto the taxpayers? That's up for debate.
Do I need to pay my mortgage back with compound interest? Not up for debate (at least up here in Canada)

Do you feel like your students just "imitate" you when you insist that they use sound mathematics in their economic modeling?

There's a place for everything.

Yeah, well, I may have been a mite irked, but I think the ambiguity of the English language is making it sound like I was more prickly than was the case.

The 'you' in my paragraph was the plural (or royal) you, referring to all teachers (including myself), not the singular you referring to 'you' in particular.

If I was a mite irked it was because the question seemed pointless, or designed to provoke a little outburst .... so I obliged. :p

I obliged by suggesting some things that I thought would be quite opposite what many people might advance as 'perfection.' Frankly attentive, eager to please, little angels is not my definition of perfect students. They sure make life easy, but ...

Not a teacher ... just a student. From reading what's described above I think I am no where near to the perfect student

In saying that from reading:

I would agree that this is true. But only for a certain age group. I think students from the age of 11 and above often begin to formulate their own opinions. Their tastes develop and they do begin thinking for themselves. I think children benefit from someone setting the rules and knowing what and who is right and and wrong. I think in saying this students at their early ages should have options. They should be developing their tastes.

My point is what you seem to be steering towards is the ideal student, the ideal student appears to be older in age...

As a student it's nice to hear some teacher perspectives.

I liked Betty's list. Maybe 'Earnest' would be a better summary.

My current teacher is great, she hears so much more than I do, generally gives reasons for what she says and when she doesn't I can usually deduce the reasoning anyways. But most of all is incredibly generous with all her resources.

This in turn makes me want to be the most worthy student I can be, I don't want such excellent efforts to go to waste! Maybe that would be a factor for me - an awareness of what my teacher is putting into the lessons.

I like to think that my efforts are also encouraging for her - a positive reinforcement loop.

On that note, time for me to turn off the computer and practice

I do see what you are saying BTW...(handshake offered)

.... and apology for prickliness offered too!


additionally ....

I thought with my list that I would toss out somewhat negative traits like aggression and show how, when controlled and channeled, they can be characteristics of truly great students.

1RC said: "I liked Betty's list. Maybe 'Earnest' would be a better summary."

Please go ahead and add earnest to the list!

A little girl age 7, about to turn 8, and I were singing at lesson today, she played some Disney, Bare Necessities, and Tigger, and we sang about a Barnyard Cat. She was so happy to be singing and playing, and she has really great potential in her young voice - it's exciting to hear her sing.

She looked at me with a puzzled look, and said, "Maybe I should be taking singing lessons!"

She went singing out the door and into the car. I wish I could have been an invisible person in that car on the ride home. Bet her Mom was surprized!

Betty

How would "practicing a lot" and "not questioning the teacher's suggestions" represent the perfect student?

Practicing a lot can make a student really good. Who wants a student that is better than the teacher? Didn't liszt even reject a very talented pianist for being "too" talented?

Not questioning what the teacher says? What's that going to create? Clones of the teacher....which teachers such as liszt and horowitz didn't want.

Well, I agree with you about "not questioning the teacher's suggestions". I like a bit of questioning, if it shows they're thinking about what I've said. It also helps to discover misunderstandings which otherwise might persist for weeks without either of us realising.

But your other point? Who wants a student that is better than the teacher? Well I would, for one! I'm not so insecure in my ability that I have a need to be better than anyone. If I had a brilliant student who practised his/her heart out and got to the stage where I couldn't teach him/her any more I'd be very proud of him/her, (and of myself ) and be more than happy to see him move on to another teacher who could help him develop more! I can't really imagine any teacher worth his salt being afraid that his students might be going to get better than him! In fact, now I think about it, your point is so weird I think you must have been joking and I missed it :rolleyes:

I just called up a teacher today who only taught beginners (someone asked me to check out teacher for that other person). I asked my normal brain probing questions and many of them she couldn't answer. It was clear to me that she wasn't really experienced or qualified. I don't understand why people like that teach ... taking on beginners is a bigger task (I my opinion than taking on intermediate or advanced students).

I only asked her a few questions ... imagine the 'perfect' student who asks questions seeing her. The perfect student should be seeing the perfect teacher.