Teacher explanation please. When teaching with the Alfred books, should one learn the songs perfectly and then advance or do you allow for some minor mistakes and move on so not to spend a huge amount of time on one particular tune. Will one still get the skills necessary to evolve to hone later. Not sure if my question will make sense to anyone.Thanks in advance.

Well, the teacher should be able to play each piece perfectly and artistically. Or did you mean the student? Each teacher has to decide where and when a student has gained sufficient skills from each piece and is ready to proceed. Students will not, even if working on a piece for a year, be able to play at your level, so insisting on perfection would be a quick way to lose 100% of your students.

I have a goal that each piece should serve to accomplish. When I feel that the students has grasped that concept and internalized it, we are free to move on, assuming that they are playing with accuracy.

I also agree with what JVBD Said.

So, if the teacher feels the student has a pretty fair grasp of the skill involved in a particular lesson, move on. Its not really necessary to play a piece perfectly. The skill is important, unless your preparing for a recital or something. Correct? I meant the original message to be from the students point of view. Im not a teacher.

My daughter had lessons for a short time with a teacher who insisted that every song be perfected (she was using Alfred at the time but I don't think it matters what method). She would play the same piece (even those that were only 1 page) for an entire month. My daughter was very discouraged but the teacher would not sign off on a piece unless every little phrase was perfect.

There are definitely pieces where I require more from the student, but not every single one.

Teachers vary, and a month is not an inordinately long period of time. How many pieces is she working on? My beginners are generally working on 8 or so pieces every week. They need enough to keep them playing for a few minutes every day.

I wouldn't pass a sloppy piece, but then I would have not assigned a piece that is going to be played sloppily.

Accurate notes,
good, consistent fingering,
steady beat,
good counting of note values
phrasing
dynamic
legato-staccato
articulation (yes, even in Alfred 1, because there are usually words guiding us how to play the music, and the weight or the word, connection in syllables, sentence structure, exclamations, question marks, commas, an periods are use.

Even with accounting for this list as being the things under development in this book, it will probably take more than one week of preparation to "ace" the list.

I always let the student know what has been done well, and if there is an item (from my list - the student does not have access to my list in Grade 1) I tell the students what he is to add to the working of the song this coming week.

By the time we have processed the basic list, the song is going to be musical.

Like John, I have 4 - 8 pieces going at a time as long as they are half page songs, or one page songs. When music becomes 2 pages, there will be time for fewer songs in the weekly assignment, but the number of pages will remain the same.

Attention to details is what it is all about, IMHO.

One of the best things we can do with our students is show that applied practice and applied patience produces results they can be proud of. They can joyously feel and hear the good results - this is a huge motivator for them to become willing to do the work.

It actually helps the student reach a depth in their music, rather than on the surface of playing.

Don't be turning pages just to turn pages.

When I first started teaching, I was such a perfectionist, I never allowed a student to "pass" without playing a piece perfectly. They usually end up with four or five F's across the top of the page.

I don't think one month on a piece is too long, even for method book stuff. Some students have short attention spans, so keep them busy by assigning a lot of pieces.

The human brain constantly needs stimulation. Often, when general students don't take lessons they don't learn a piece from beginning to end, they learn the first few phrases then decide to move onto another. One teacher I had believed in spending three weeks on a few pieces and them moving onto others ... (it took a bit longer for pieces above a students standard, as well as longer technically demanding pieces.)

One teacher I had spent a whole year polishing 4-6 pieces. That drove me insane ... I'm sure it drove his others students insane. The human brain needs to be stimulated constantly.

I use the Alfred books extensively for my younger beginners (Level 1A and 1B) and find that most of them can pretty much do 2 to 3 songs a month.

I've always taught them that they have to accomplish the important basics that Betty listed out. The occasional wrong note played is fine by me, but if they consistently make mistakes with a piece, I would not move on. Encouragement and guidance on the teacher's part usually makes them motivated enough to realize and to correct their mistakes, and I am genuinely happy when they achieve this.

Slowfingers, your topic, although addressed to the method books, prompts a broader question. Close to 100% of students, and unfortunately, a fair number of teachers (too many perhaps) consider they've learned a piece when they can play all the right notes in the right order. Rhythm, maintaining the pulse, adding proper dynamics, voicing, phrasing, etc., etc., is not even on their sight horizon.

In reality, learning the notes is just the very beginning of music making. Phase I, if you will.

Even in the method books, level 1, I work with my students to voice, phrase, and add more than just written out dynamics. And hopefully, so is your teacher.

Turning a page of notes into something musical cannot be done by the vast majority of students in a week or two. The students need to know the notes so well that they can begin to focus on these abstract concepts.

And all of this is the beginning of training a student to "listen" to their own playing.

Does this help?

If teaching strategies and concepts as subject materials are nonexistant or lacking, you basically have a non-teaching situation.

Information has to be transferred to the student and useful to the student. It needs to come from the teacher every bit as much as from the method book, or the choices of assignments for learning.

If the teacher is not teaching practice strategies and supervising outcome, there is no memory to be had. Simply repeating a piece of music does not knowledge and good results obtain.

There is so much need for the intention stage of piano playing - and for the listening stage.

Intelligent thought and intelligent action is needed. And, it needs to be supervised by the teacher.

Don't good teachers know this? THis would be a mark in the sand to me in describing and separating those who teach well, and those who, well, "teach".

Accepting money for teaching music does not a professional make.

If this sounds harsh, it is. If this sounds like a joke, it isn't.

We should be rated on our outcomes and what our clients say about us.

Betty

Indeed, I've always approached learning music in three phases, with each being worthy of celebration.

1) Notes and timing accuracy
2) Adherence to composer's indications
3) Personal interpretation

I'd love to stand on an ivory tower here, but to be honest some pieces only need to be brought to stage one. Recital, exam, and festival pieces need to be brought to stage three, and most should at least be brought to stage two.

Note...many teachers disagree with this concept, arguing that expression should be added right from the beginning. That is a another thread though.

AZN
Does this mean you are no longer a perfectionist?
Do you really grade your student at every lesson (I am not being facetious, just interested). Kids are used to being graded, so I suppose it makes some sense to concretize the outcome of their efforts, but does it backfire? If I get Fs 4 or 5 times in a row, I definitely would stop trying..but that is just me- and I am a grown-up..Perhaps you could cmment further.. what happens after the 5th F?

I find piano teaching to be endlesly fascinating and complex. I sometimes struggle a bit with my own teacher's reponse /reaction to my playing and cannot help comparing teaching styles / experience.

I think, if we will allow "approximimity" before we insist on accuracy, small corrections can be made to "zero in" on the music staff to keyboard orientation.

I use the music staff/keyboard learning as a visual and aural activity based on which register the note appears in first, and then we get closer until accurate by doing "middle line" training - from which all 5 lines and 4 spaces can be found from placing the thumbs (piggyback) on the treble clef, bass clef, and middle C.

Finger 5-3-1 are lines/Fingers 2-4 are spaces in this "thinking game".

Then, it is reasonable to use a trainer, and to practice the naming and finding of a note from the grand staff to the keyboard - with 100% accuracy.

I am basically saying that several different approaches to learning make facts solid in the student's mind. I think all of them are needed, not just one attempt or quick explanation.

Approach note reading from different angles until it all makes sense and is a given skill for the student.

Andromak said: "I find piano teaching to be endlesly fascinating and complex."

Absolutely Andromak! And, that should go for saying whether you are the teacher or the student or both.

Betty

Well said, Betty!

This reply is coming from a parent who has no music background at all. I came to this forum to gain an understanding of how I could better assist my child with her practice. I really understand what Betty said about needing to be taught the nuances before a student can apply them. My daughter is 8 years old and is at an intermediate level. She usually spends 45 minutes to an hour practicing three pieces at a time which is currently an effective strategy. This past week her teacher wanted her to practice the full time on one piece. She wanted it "to be as good as she (the teacher) can play it". She did work hard on it, but she does not have the sophistication to fine tune it without direct instruction from her teacher. So, there is lots of repetition at a less than "perfect" level which becomes counter productive (harder to correct once so ingrained). My daughter was avoiding the practice, which is unlike her, because she found it too repetitive. It seems like she is too young or immature to figure out many of the subtleties.

Oh, no, I'm not a perfectionist anymore. I've learned to make my expectations more realistic. Most kids get discouraged by getting F's. Some teachers give out report cards on a semester basis. I might start doing that just to keep the parents informed of their children's (lack of) progress.

But that doesn't mean I don't have high expectations. I'm just lowering the bar from 100% to 95%, if you know what I mean. Most of my piano students are able to accept that level of push from their piano teacher.

musicgreenie, I would recommend you tell your daughter's teacher exactly what you just told us.

Just to provide you some perspective, I generally have my students play through a piece, so I know where they are with it, then we go back and pick out specific problems to solve. We wrap up by playing it through one more time.

I do this with the hope (actually more than hope, as I specifically tell the students this is how they should practice at home) that this will become part of their practice routine.

For my older, more mature students, I will frequently ask them what problems they experienced and what would they like to improve. I don't accept generalities - they need to be specific.

I would have reservations about what an 8 year old student could do on their own, and what they could accomplish with a mentoring parent.

musicgreenie,

There is a lot of material out there encouraging parents to play a supportive role in their child's music study.

I compliment you on your willingness to getting involved and understanding what goes on in music lessons.

This is a good place to get information - but as in any endeavor - please consider the source of the information.

I will try to "feed" some ideas to you in the area of reading in the next week or two, if you don't mind. And, if you tell your child's piano teacher you are interested in such, I hope that she will provide you with such info, also.

I'm very pleased you understood what I was saying in the thread today!

Best wishes!

Betty

John v.d.Brook -This was an "aha" for me. I appreciate how you help your students help themselves. I think it is really important for all learners to be able to figure out what s/he needs to improve, what they would like to work on. I think that I can do this on a simple level to start the process. Thanks!

Betty-I'd greatly appreciate readings on how to support my child's music study. Thanks for offering!

musicgreenie,

On Internet search for "Parents Role in Music Study" and there will be a wealth of ideas.

On Piano World Forum "search" (here at top of page - orange letters)as there is a lot of information in the archives.

I know I have done a lot of posting on the subject so you could add "Betty Patnude" to the internet and the PWF search about Parents Role in Music Study. (Piano Study might be more appropriate.)

Also "Martha Beth Lewis" devotes pages to parents questions. She holds a doctorate in pedagogy and has a stupendous website addressing everything you ever wanted to know about piano lessons. Appropriate for piano teachers, students and parents.

Best wishes,

Betty

Questionnaire for Parents to consider:

DATE ________________
STUDENT'S NAME _________________________________
PARENT'S NAME _________________________________

Please check mark any and all items which apply to your child.

1. My child is studying piano mainly:
__ Because s/he wants to
__ Because we and s/he both want this experience
__ Because we want him/her to, but s/he does not resist having lessons
__ At our insistence and s/he would much rather not have lessons

2. Most weeks my child usually practices a total for the week of:
__ Less than one hour
__ 1-2 hours
__ 2-3 hours
__ 3-5 hours
__ 5-7 hours
__ More than 7 hours


3. My child generally:
__ Accepts responsibility for his/her practice
__ Needs to be reminded to practice, but does not make a fuss when reminded
__ Has a negative attitude toward practicing

4. Regarding the amount of practice time:
__ I feel regular practice (6-7 days weekly, a specified amount of time) is essential and this routine is broken only under extreme circumstances.
__ While practice is important, there may be occasional times when my child is unable to practice as regularly or as much as is ideal because of varying other activities and commitments.
__ My child is very involved in sports or other activities so that many times during the year the practice is quite limited.
__ My child finds school work very demanding and as a result does not always have time to practice very much.
__ We do not feel regular practice is necessary for our child's piano lesson experience.

5. Regarding the practicing situation and environment:
__ My child can practice anytime s/he wishes in a location of the house that is free from disturbance of TV, stereo, family members, telephone, etc.
__ My child must schedule his practice in order to practice undisturbed, but most days this can be done without too much difficulty.
__ Our situation makes it difficult for my child to find undisturbed practice time.

6. Regarding actual practice time:
__ I feel the amount of time my child practices is adequate for his age and level of advancement and for what s/he and we feel s/he should be accomplishing.
__ I would like my child to practice more. Please encourage this in lessons and know that you have our support at home.
__ We are seriously concerned that our child's practice is not nearly enough and feel that the teacher, parents and child should work out a solution to the problem.
__ I feel my child has reasonable good work habits and uses his practice time well.
__ My child's practice is sloppy and is not directed toward doing things well.
__ My child would benefit from more specific or detailed written assignments.

7. I feel the following things help motivate my child to practice:
__ Enjoying playing the piano
__ Pieces s/he especially enjoys
__ Performance goals such as classes, recitals, auditions
__ Earning points
__ Achieve specific or general goals such as finish a piece, complete a book
__ Advance to harder music
__ Being able to play new or old pieces easily and quickly
__ Having to work very hard to learn a new piece
__ Having expectations and attitudes
__ Parent expectations and attitudes
__ Keeping a practice record
__ Having a parent sit with or listen to him/her practice
__ Not being too busy with extra activities
__ Specific practice steps written down in assignment book
__ Competition with peers
__ My child like to do well in most tasks s/he undertakes
__ My child is usually self-motivated in accepting responsibility
__ Other

8. Concerning playing for friends or relatives, my child:
__ Enjoys playing the piano for friends and/or relatives
__ Is very reluctant to play for friends and/or relatives
__ Enjoys sitting down to play the piano apart from practicing assignments
__ Old favorites from lessons
__ Pop, folk or church songs
__ Improvising and must "messing around"
__ Rote songs (such as Chopsticks, Heart and Soul)

9. Please give the reasons you see that your child has or has not progressed as you have expected or would have liked, during the most recent 3-month period:

10. What can the teacher do to help contribute to a more satisfactory experience?

11. Our piano, manufactured by _______________________________ is a:
___ Spinet ___ Console ___ Upright ___ Grand ___ Keyboard

12. We own a metronome which is in good working order:
___ Yes ___ No

13. My child has piano music of his level which he can play on his own for fun:
___ Folk Music ___ Church Music ___ Popular Music

14. My child plays the following instrument(s) in addition to piano:

15. My child sings in a choir at:
___ School ___ Church ___ Other

16. Please add anything you feel would be helpful to communicate to the piano teacher:

17. Do you have any questions you would like to ask at this time?

I hope questionnaires like this help promote discussion and communication between parents and the piano teacher.

Sincerely,

Betty Patnude

For my students, since we're on this topic now, I assign up to three pieces for them to work on at a time. Out of the three pieces, we pick one that we're going to get up to performance level, and that piece will be the one on which I absolutely will not lower my expectations. I will push them as far as they can go to get everything right, to play it with musicality and the correct mood.

The other two pieces, it's up to the student how far we go. Sometimes I sense that they're bored, and they're not going to learn anything else, so we move on even if the rhythm isn't completely there. I just break it down further and find a piece that isolates whatever gave us trouble last time.

In this way my students get both ends of the spectrum - the teacher who is uncompromising in expectations of excellence, and the teacher who is willing to let things slide.

Coming into this late:

--------------------

NEW means that I give a page or composition in a lesson but have not had time to cover it at all. The student is free to try it, but also to wait until next time. I don't want to use such new material to add stress or pressure.

Check means that we went over something, but it's not quite working yet, at the end of a lesson.

VG (Very Good) plus check means that I am pleased with the way something went after I gave hints, tips, and so on, but it was not right at the beginning of the lesson. This could be something that we just started in the lesson that fell into place. It could be just a page.

VG means that the student has successfully nailed the notes and fingers, plus other things that we are focusing on. In rare situations, it may only be notes and fingers. It also means that the rhythm is shaky.

A+ means that the counting has been added and that they rhythm is reasonably correct. There may be some adjustment due to technical difficulties, and it would not yet work with a metronone.

Once students are on at least an intermediate level, all those automatic A+ grades are replaced with B's and C's when anything is substandard. If it's not at a C level (in my mind) they don't even get a grade. And I tell them why. However, I will grade pages or even sections, separately, to stress that not all parts of a hard (and long) piece will fall into place at the same time.

Performance means that we have chosen something to be performed. I don't care if the goal is to play in front of friends or family only. Once a student chooses something for performance level, I have the right to demand any level of perfection I see fit, and I won't clear it as performance ready until it meets my standards.

For "The Saint Goes Marching In", performance means playing the melody and chords correctly, counting, and playing through counting out loud with out stops until I clear the student to count in the head. And I get to demand out-loud counting the moment the rhythm does not meet my expectations. I do not require memorization for anything at this level. I ask for at least 10 performances, of any kind, with music. Then I ask for at least one memorized performance, but then I demand playing from memory starting any line or any spot I mark. I won't OK anything for memory performance until I'm dead sure it's not a "go magic fingers" thing, all muscle memory and no plan.

For the Mephisto Waltz (and I'm talking from experience, because I had a teen prepare this for performance), "perfomance ready" meant being able to play, from memory, from any starting point I marked in the score, and I marked perhaps 100 such starting places. I expected the notes nailed, composition played up to tempo, all marks observed and understood, complete structural analysis, absolutely strict observation of all fingerings we agreed on, etc. On that level, I'm a good-natured tyrant. And I obey my own rules, making myself start from all markings that I have directed a student to start from. In public I expect people to be able to play without getting rattled no matter what happens. If there is even the possibility of a serious memory lapse, the memorization process is incomplete and a train-wreck is right around the corner.

My point is that my focus totally changes for people who decide they want to pursue piano seriously, as a major, or even as a principle instrument in the pursuit of any kind of music degree.

For those who are just having fun, I'm easy-going. For those who are really serious, they get *no sympathy* from me when they get lazy and set low standards for themselves!

Gary, what is missing for me in your list are things like phrasing, dynamics, the things that turn a piece into music but are still also mechanical elements we have to get into control. Are these also in your mental checklist, just not written down? Unless I misunderstood, I would not consider my piece performance-ready if I only had the elements nailed that you have listed. Except for "memorization, readiness to start at any point" for the serious learner, I would consider those things the initial skeleton from which to start developing my piece, the things which I need first. (?)

Betty, I like that questionnaire! Thanks.

I wrote this:
You mentioned "phrasing, dynamics". When I said "all marks observed", I meant studying everything in the music. Really, that's only a start, because there are countless other things that the student and teacher explore, together.

For instance, there are few pedal marks in most advanced music, and the una corda is seldom inicated. When it comes to the fine points that make the difference between a mechanical, uninspired performance and one that is first-rate, it's much like peeling an onion that is infinite in size. Layer after layer is revealed. It's a never-ending process.

I used the Mephisto as an example, because I taught it for audition and performance. I was using a very difficult, advance piece of music and a very elementary one to make a contrast between what I expect after a month or so and what I expect after many years with a very serious student.

Thank you, Gary, I have a much better picture now.

KS