Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
Who's Online
152 registered (accordeur, Anita Potter, anamnesis, BB Player, 50 invisible), 1656 Guests and 14 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#962431 - 07/23/08 05:00 PM Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
pianoexcellence Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 753
Loc: Abbotsford, BC, Canada
I always hear people say things that can be summed up as... "Using the metronome is bad"

For those who believe this...Please teach me how to help a beginner to understand.

I have some preliminary ideas...heartbeat, walking, etc, but I was hoping we could develop it further here.

Ready to take notes.

-P-
_________________________
Music is the surest path to excellence

Jeremy BA, ARCT, RMT
Pianoexcellence Tuning and Repairs

Top
(ad) Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#962432 - 07/23/08 05:17 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11851
Loc: Canada
This may be a bit off the mark, but I have come at this moment from my "self-study", to whit: Chaconne danced (actually I was after the Chaconne the Phaeton, which is very rhythmic - it's two down on the left)

As I read music history, I follow up by googling. I see courtly dances being danced, hear the strong drum beats and percussives of the early Renaissance and see how the dancers dance and are moved by the rhythms. Then invariably I come upon an instrumental version, often devoid of these rhythms and played blandly. Doesn't it make sense that if music came from dance and speech, we students become aware of these dances and visualize their rhythms as we play? Kids love to google stuff. Why not this?

Top
#962433 - 07/23/08 05:18 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
eromlignod Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 379
Loc: Kansas City
Use a metronome.

Don
Kansas City

Top
#962434 - 07/23/08 06:12 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11851
Loc: Canada
This was put up by a teacher in Dec. Gordon - rhythm There's a teaching video from this or something similar (solfege - rhythm part?) floating around from the same period.

Top
#962435 - 07/23/08 06:13 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
The one-word answer = Dalcroze

Body movement generally, not just walking. With young children I've used far more movement than just about anything else. If you don't feel the beat, then imposing it with an electronic click doesn't guarantee anything. (the swinging pendulum ones are better IMO because you see the progress of the beat from one to the next, and you can anticipate when the next click will come more easily).
I use a metronome from time to time, but I don't think you should assume that simply using one all the time ensures that someone will then be able to internalise the beat. In lessons I sometimes take the role of the metronome myself, on the second piano - more part of the music than a disembodied click.

For me personally, I very rarely use a metronome (except for checking a tempo).

PS I wouldn't say "metronome=bad", just limited by itself, useful if part of a much wider rhythmic learning strategy.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#962436 - 07/23/08 06:48 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Eye movement training is also essential to keeping a steady beat - a consistent eye movement is easily trained if you think about how you present new music in the beginning.

I do this with beginner with prechart music and the distance between "notes" is equidistant between quarter notes, but 1/8 notes are closer together and half notes and larger will occupy as many notes as their values.

0 0 0 0 is what it looks like and no one has introduced counting words yet - the placement of the notes creates the focus of eye movement.

Then the walking and pacing of tempo is very helpful.

A great introduction of note values counting down from the whole note (subtracting half) is an excellant system, and using the dot to add half of the note value is excellant too.

Get these things done, understood and retrievable in the very first few lessons.

It's empowerment!


Betty

Top
#962437 - 07/23/08 07:02 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11851
Loc: Canada
Rhythm in music: Medieval
It really brings out the rhythmic heritage of our Western music, literally beginning percussively. Would this not fire the imagination at any age?

Top
#962438 - 07/23/08 08:23 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
Lillystar Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 20
I tried something this summer with a student: I asked her to make a verticle mark for each quarter note on a sheet with the tick of the metronome. We did this for the half-note, dotted half-note etc... I spread this over several lessons. Well, the one time we did not use the metronome she performed the task with a steady rhythm - she was feeling the beat as she marked the notes! I was very pleased with this! This idea is nothing new, but I think it works!

Top
#962439 - 07/23/08 09:02 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7417
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
I cannot imagine why teachers would want to discourage use of a metronome. Wait, there are troglodytes who don't use computers, aren't there? So it follows that some teachers would forgo using modern technology for internalizing a steady beat.

Using the metronome just for teaching, I got to the point I could identify a beat within 1 or 2 bpm. It was somewhat frightening to realize what the brain was actually capable of doing.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

Top
#962440 - 07/23/08 11:25 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12216
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by John v.d.Brook:
I cannot imagine why teachers would want to discourage use of a metronome. Wait, there are troglodytes who don't use computers, aren't there? So it follows that some teachers would forgo using modern technology for internalizing a steady beat.

Using the metronome just for teaching, I got to the point I could identify a beat within 1 or 2 bpm. It was somewhat frightening to realize what the brain was actually capable of doing. [/b]
Actually, there are specific bpms that are associated with things we do. Normal speech is at 116, for instance. Turn on the Tv where people are talking normally and then turn on the metronome to this. You will find that is matches precisely, pauses and all. Then change to like 120 or 110 and see if it matches up. It's pretty interesting.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

Top
#962441 - 07/23/08 11:57 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
 Quote:
Originally posted by Morodiene:
Actually, there are specific bpms that are associated with things we do. Normal speech is at 116, for instance. Turn on the Tv where people are talking normally and then turn on the metronome to this. You will find that is matches precisely, pauses and all. Then change to like 120 or 110 and see if it matches up. It's pretty interesting. [/b]
That is interesting, Morodiene! I'll have to try it out and see if Aussies talk at the same rate \:\) .

Earlier this year I was watching the annual Anzac Day march on TV and brought out my (at that time) new toy (digital metronome) and was very surprised at the variation in tempo of the bands - from not much more than 80 for the pipe bands to a twitchy 120 for some of the younger high school marching bands. Difficult for the old soldiers who were halfway between two of them! I had expected some variation, but not so much as I found.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#962442 - 07/24/08 12:26 AM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11851
Loc: Canada
Has anyone looked at the video marked "Medieaval" that I submitted? I guess I'm a bit excited about it, and hope I'm not being pushy.

The same kids who can't get the rhythm will rock and sway, bob their heads, as they listen to popular music. It's just that our classical music isn't seen as rhythmic. It's melody and rhythm is incidental. What if music were rhythm with melody attached to it? There is motion in rhythm. How would we play it if we could clue into that?

The video I presented makes me tap my feet and nod my head, though I don't usually do that. It begins with clapping and tapping - those "beginner exercises", yet by serious playing musicians. I can see a youngster wanting to imitate that, get carried away by it. But the neat thing is that this music is at the roots of our own classical music. If rhythm is perceived as a vital part of music, rather than dutiful clapping in order to have the "correct beat" won't that change how it gets internalized?

Earlier I was watching period dancers, struck by the strong rhythms in the music and their dance. Then I heard solo performances of the same genres, and many were lacking something though the music was pretty enough. The spring in the steps of the dancer was missing in the solos. One or two performers, lutists, stood out - their music was alive. The dance was in the performance, you could imagine the drums.

I'm almost tempted to wonder - before playing a waltz, should one learn to waltz? Should a beginner march to the beat, or dance to it?

Top
#962443 - 07/24/08 12:35 AM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
You've started this topic to spite me, haven't you? Morodienne, that's very interesting. Anybody have any reflexions on that.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#962444 - 07/24/08 12:43 AM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
 Quote:
Originally posted by keystring:
Has anyone looked at the video marked "Medieaval" that I submitted? I guess I'm a bit excited about it, and hope I'm not being pushy. [/b]
I think you're on the same wavelength as me on this, KS. As for the video, as usual I'm back on dial-up speed and if I want to watch it I have to go away and do something else for half an hour while it loads. OK, see you in half an hour \:\) .
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#962445 - 07/24/08 01:22 AM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
jotur Online   blank
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5659
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
keystring - much of the music from the mid-1600's to the mid-1700's is still danced to. I played Purcell and folk music for English country dances just 2 weeks ago in an ensemble with flute, fiddle, and cello - in a barn, with 2 donkeys watching \:\) Much of it from that era and earlier is danced to as Scottish country dance music, or contra dances. Some tunes from the Fitzwilliam virginal book - Sellenger's Round is probably the most well known - are still danced to. (Of course that's just western music - music from all over the world that is that old or older is still danced to.) I've seen people with no apparent sense of rhythm who began to dance regularly turn into quite capable dancers with a good sense of the music. And playing music for dancers likewise makes a huge difference in the musicality of musicians. It's great fun to watch some of the Jane Austen movies and the dancers in those, but it's even more fun to find a local folk or country dance group and dance to it one's self. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some kind of recreatonal folk dance group within an hour's drive of you (I say an hour's drive because here in the southwest it isn't unusual to drive even 4 hours in order to dance - make a weekend of it, and an hour is an easy commute.) And in many groups children are welcome, so it becomes a family affair. Yeah, dancing is way too much fun, and making music for dancing is a real high.

Cathy
_________________________

Top
#962446 - 07/24/08 02:18 AM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Pulse is the vehicle on which we drive that camel of shared experience through the eye of the needle to the others' side. It makes us ***** (it seems the word pr*ck is not allowed! gosh!) up our ears in recognition of something not of the natural world. Still I would start the child off with the natural world. That was kinda Peztalozzi and Froebel's idea.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#962447 - 07/24/08 02:27 AM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
 Quote:
Originally posted by jotur:
keystring - much of the music from the mid-1600's to the mid-1700's is still danced to. I played Purcell and folk music for English country dances just 2 weeks ago in an ensemble with flute, fiddle, and cello - in a barn, with 2 donkeys watching \:\) [/b]
Did the ox and lamb keep time?

Top
#962448 - 07/24/08 02:28 AM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by theJourney:
Did the ox and lamb keep time? [/b]
Are you Jesus? Or is it out of the mouths of babes... (no gender stereotype intended)?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#962449 - 07/24/08 10:25 AM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
pianoexcellence Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 753
Loc: Abbotsford, BC, Canada
Abby Whiteside writes of a "fundamental internal rhythm" that controls the playing. I remember pondering her writings, as she said...roughly..."a fundamental internal rhythm will overcome all technical difficulties"

I just wrote it off as nonsense, and kept on teaching with metronome, and slow practice, technique etc. I've had a really good experience using my style (which is certainly not unique), but now I'm kind of bored and interested in something new...especially because a steady internal beat is not always easy for all students to achieve with metronome use....it always ends up happening, but it is sometimes slow.

KBK What do you think of whiteside's work. Many things you say have a similar slant in tone. I understand that you may not be a fan of her "blended motion" or her abhorance of "reaching with the finger"
_________________________
Music is the surest path to excellence

Jeremy BA, ARCT, RMT
Pianoexcellence Tuning and Repairs

Top
#962450 - 07/24/08 03:25 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
I have her book. It has many good things about it. I was lucky - I had an even better teacher!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#962451 - 07/30/08 05:14 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
SantaFe_Player Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 607
Metronomes are not exactly cutting edge technology - yeah, maybe the newer digital ones are, but the metronome as a tool has been in existence for a very long time, even if you had to wind it up and change the weight on the pendulum to change the tempo. Hence equating them with a computer is laughable, unless your computer also provides you with metronome beats but even then, the tool itself has existed for a long time, the computer has just added it as one of its many functions.

That having been said - use one.
_________________________
SantaFe_Player

Top
#962452 - 07/30/08 05:31 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
Whether we personally advocate the use of a metronome or not, the original question pianoexcellence asked was for teachers to suggest some other ways of helping students internalize a steady beat, apart from the metronome.

And I think pianoexcellence did get some suggestions \:\) . I've always found it most effective to use many ways of approaching a concept rather than just one.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#962453 - 07/30/08 07:54 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7417
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
SantaFe,

Just got back from Flagstaff - my gosh, what beautiful country you're in.

Anyway, you just made my point. The metronome has been around for nearly 200 years. In fact, 2012 will be the Bicentennial. Beethoven was the first major composer to use it, and to annotate tempi with it, and that was just 3 years after it's invention! How about that for progressive?
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

Top
#962454 - 07/30/08 08:20 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Yes, but he never dreamed someone would try and play along with one.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#962455 - 07/30/08 08:26 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7417
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Well, I don't have a time machine, so I can't be so positive about that statement.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

Top
#962456 - 07/30/08 10:18 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
Arabesque Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 553
Loc: Japan
For what it's worth I have come to the opinion that I actually think that playing to a metronome is a higher skill than playing on one's own. Let's go back to childhood. As a beginner I had more success playing songs I already knew and which had a strong quarter or semi tone beat: Twinkle, Twinkle, The British Grenadiers, The Toreodor's March from Carmen. Children could easily march or perform body movements in tandem with these songs. Most tempo problems occur with more advanced music: compound times, rests or tied notes or in technical areas of classical music or advanced popular music.

You may disagree, but I think that it may not be such a good thing for piano teachers to make beginners count aloud and also this includes the teacher counting aloud when they play and banging a ruler.

For many beginners piano playing and counting is equal to juggling whilst riding a bicycle. You have to learn them seperately at first. I think there is a strong case for the student to accompany music with body movement as much as possible away from the piano.

Music in the west is often created to a beat or measure, but music from other cultures such as Africa is often built up round the beat which is often the drum. And African dances related to later jazz forms show a remarkably complex rythmic interplay built over a simple drum beat.

European classical tradition being courtly and ecclesiastical in origin tries to sublimate the primal dance. But piano students need to lose the inhibition that the music is purely a mathematical exercise and they need to get body awareness of that music. This is the key I think. But how to achieve this with beginners must lie in their own musical responses and cannot be imposed by a metronome.
_________________________
It don't mean a ting if it don't have dat swing

Top
#962457 - 07/31/08 05:21 AM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by John v.d.Brook:
Well, I don't have a time machine, so I can't be so positive about that statement. [/b]
You cannot be serious! Right on, Arabesque.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#962458 - 07/31/08 07:52 AM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7417
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
KBK, I've found in life that absolutes are dangerous. Oh, oh, that sounds a lot like an absolute! \:D
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

Top
#962459 - 07/31/08 09:19 AM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12216
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by John v.d.Brook:
KBK, I've found in life that absolutes are dangerous. Oh, oh, that sounds a lot like an absolute! \:D [/b]
The only thing in life that's true is that there are no absolutes.

(OK, I don't really believe that, just a reference for you Star Wars fans)
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

Top
#962460 - 07/31/08 11:19 AM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
pianoexcellence Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 753
Loc: Abbotsford, BC, Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by Morodiene:
a reference for you Star Wars fans) [/QB]
I thought I could escape them here!
_________________________
Music is the surest path to excellence

Jeremy BA, ARCT, RMT
Pianoexcellence Tuning and Repairs

Top
#962461 - 07/31/08 12:00 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5593
Loc: Orange County, CA
[speaking as a choral director]

Have you tried teaching your students to conduct music? The basic "down in out up" 4/4 movement helps students visualize the beats in their numbered places and helps them emphasize the downbeat. It'll be even better if they can march in place while conducting.

But I'm out of tricks when it comes to subdividing beats. Some of my students can't get dotted rhythm vs. triplets. I tried to go the speaking route (1 e + a) vs (1 + a), but even that route doesn't always work for kids who are just really bad at rhythm. \:\(
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

Top
#962462 - 07/31/08 12:09 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12216
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by AZNpiano:

But I'm out of tricks when it comes to subdividing beats. Some of my students can't get dotted rhythm vs. triplets. I tried to go the speaking route (1 e + a) vs (1 + a), but even that route doesn't always work for kids who are just really bad at rhythm. \:\( [/b]
Have you tried the "Not Diff-i-cult" for 3 vs 2 and "Not Ver-y Diff-i-cult" tapping and speaking for 4 vs. 3?
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

Top
#962463 - 07/31/08 12:21 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11851
Loc: Canada
Food for thought, if this is acceptable:

Speech is rhythmic. Currently I am reading about the late Renaissance early Baroque emphasis on using speech as the expressive model. I listen to whatever examples come along: a beautiful sung piece with lute accompaniment this morning struck me as being very even rhythmically, with an added "plus". Listening more closely I discerned the natural rhythms of the sung words - the fact that it was in the French language, as well as in a period where poetic meter was being stressed, certainly helped. However, it seems that having the rhythm of language also involves going in harmony with nature rather than against nature, as mechanical metronomic following would seem to do. Can this be used, or is it?

Top
#962464 - 07/31/08 01:21 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7417
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
AZN, a couple of other tricks for triplets, have them say, "tri-pul-ti" (rhymes with Tripoli).

Also, rather than counting out subdivisions, try having them just count the main pulses (ie 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.), but clap the rhythm as they count. That way, their brain is getting a sense of the overall pulse, but their hands are having to execute the proper rhythm.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

Top
#962465 - 07/31/08 01:25 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Just to agree quickly with you, keystings, in a few contemporary examples:

Titles of songs as well as rhythmic matching to the spoken word:
"O(oooo)k-la-HO-ma" where the wind comes sweepin' o'er the plain, etc.
"Chi-CA-go", that wonderful town, etc.

Many songs do not so cleanly fit the rhythms with the syllables. Some are more theatrical or dramatic in nature and the words are extended in length and unnatural to speech patterns.
"Whoooooo is Syllll-vi-aaaaah? Whaaaat is sheeeee, that all her swaaaains com-mennnnnnnnd herrrrr?"

Exaggerated speech is like "The r-a-i-n in Sp-a-i-n stays m-a-i-nly on the Pl-a-i-n-s."

"Articulation" is a substudy in expressive touch.

Do these examples represent what you are saying or have I missed a point?

You have such a great mind for speech keystring!

Betty

Top
#962466 - 07/31/08 01:52 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11851
Loc: Canada
Betty,
The precise catalyst for the thought comes from the development of music theory I have been reading about, and seeing its execution here:
O Jesu, Nomen Dulce Please scan down to the third piece by that name, (you'll see the image of notation) which will also permit following the notation. The singing is very nuanced and bel canto, with gentle swells and ebs within a note itself. Those swells and ebs are subservient to the nature of the words as they occur in speech. The music was written in the beginning of the Baroque period by Schutz, and both music and words were deliberately composed with the purpose in mind of allowing speech to govern. It was known as the Second Principle, stating that "Speech is the mistress of music" - mistress being the female form of master or leader and boss.

I am running "Oklahoma" through in my mind, and I don't think it follows this principle purely. The first "O" is exaggerated and unnatural to the word - the syllable follows the rule of music, and the musical beat is paramount. The word does not lead the music. However the nature of the word is taken into account with the "ho" of Oklahoma.

I am in the process of getting a first overview of music history, and so am delving into the principles of whatever period. There is a mindset that says natural speech is natural to us, and we naturally use language to express ourselves, therefore this natural expression should govern music. Would this not work in pedagogy, if we realize that people have a natural rhythm to words, and exploit this? As a step beyond saying "banana banana banana" for 9/8 compound time can we not feel the rhythm of language within the "phrase" of music? Conversely, music of certain periods were written in imitation of the vocal endeavour, and if we can "feel the hidden words" then the rhythms should be more easily felt and played.

It's interesting that centuries before, the Roman Quintilian tried to borrow from music and apply it to language. He looked at pitch and rhythm in music and wanted to apply it to oration as a means of moving the audience. 1500 years later Europe looked at Quintilian and others, and tried to bring oration into music. :p

Top
#962467 - 07/31/08 02:03 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11851
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Some are more theatrical or dramatic in nature and the words are extended in length and unnatural to speech patterns.
"Whoooooo is Syllll-vi-aaaaah? Whaaaat is sheeeee, that all her swaaaains com-mennnnnnnnd herrrrr?"
Would that example come from the earlier Renaissance period? The Second Principle came as a reaction to the First Principle, where music was the mistress of the word, leading to rhythms that were unnatural to words.

I am not even going that far in this thread, however. The people of that era came upon the thought that there is a natural rhythm of speech, and that if it is exploited in music, the music will be more effective and it will be expressed more effectively by the musician. Pedagogically, if language is natural to us and rhythm resides in language then if we look to the phrases and rhythms where they reside, or build a greater awareness of our own rhythms, this should help us play music more expressively as well as less artificial-mechanically. We would be tapping into our own natural resources, as opposed to fighting ourselves, or imposing things upon ourselves artificially.

Top
#962468 - 07/31/08 02:31 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by AZNpiano:
But I'm out of tricks when it comes to subdividing beats. Some of my students can't get dotted rhythm vs. triplets. I tried to go the speaking route (1 e + a) vs (1 + a), but even that route doesn't always work for kids who are just really bad at rhythm. \:\( [/b]
I've always used pea-nut but-ter even with adults.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#962469 - 07/31/08 06:37 PM Re: Helping Students to Internalize a Steady Quarter Beat...(Metronome Not Allowed)
SantaFe_Player Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 607
"For what it's worth I have come to the opinion that I actually think that playing to a metronome is a higher skill than playing on one's own."

\:\) \:\) \:\)

If you aren't used to it, it can be really tough. It seems like the little bugger is speeding up and slowing down all by itself.

Keyboardklutz, why not have your students say
"trip-uh-let trip-uh-let" instead of "1 & a" for the triplets.

When you get to 64th notes you could resort to
Rubber Baby Buggy Bumpers
_________________________
SantaFe_Player

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  Ken Knapp 
What's Hot!!
Christmas Header
Christmas Lights at Piano World Headquarters in Maine 2014
-------------------
The December Free Piano Newsletter
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Pearl River vs. Samick
by Zekk
Today at 03:41 PM
Kawai vs. Yamaha: what to choose
by SeeSharp
Today at 02:19 PM
Disklavier Pro Alternatives? C5X Value for money?
by bryan77
Today at 01:15 PM
piano sound is the result of more than just the hammer speed
by Keith D Kerman
Today at 01:05 PM
piano sound is the result of more than just the hammer speed
by Keith D Kerman
Today at 01:05 PM
Forum Stats
77388 Members
42 Forums
160044 Topics
2350234 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission