Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Rates....opinion please

I thought long and hard about the difference in price. I believe that this is the price that makes either option seem reasonable to me as the teacher.

Considering the extra work involved, Jeremy, now that I understand what it's about, it also seems reasonable to me.

You are not saying, are you, that your regular $40/lesson student is not allowed to ask for an additional lesson (additionally paid for) here and there if the occasion warrants it? That is part of what I understood under that policy and it's the part that left me feeling insecure.

Wow...is that the going rate in your area?

I guess living in Southern California gives me the excuse to charge more. One of the more reputable piano schools in my area raised its rates to $80/hour, and then the more active private teachers followed suit. My rates aren't quite that high yet, but it is nice to work where the glass ceiling is high.

It is interesting to see a 2-tiered payment system, but I do question the need for that. I do get calls for "coaching" lessons or "tune-up" lessons before competitions, but my first question is always, "Is your teacher okay with that?" In the event that it is the teacher who sent the student over to me for that one lesson, I do charge the same rate as my regular students--I just schedule the special lesson at my convenience.

The local music conservatory charges about $31/half hour, and my prices are much less than that here, and I'm not considered cheap, either, compared to what others charge. Every area is different, but I know that if someone in say, Chicago makes $50,000, that is roughly equivalent to making $32,000 here because the housing costs are much less here.

AZN, what interests me is not so much the $65 for "coaching" sessions or lessons scheduled only occasionally, as it's about the same as Seattle. What surprises me is the $40/hr for your tuition paying students. I would have thought your rate would be closer to $50/hr.

John

Yes, don't forget to value the results you get with your students as a factor of your earning power. If you support MTNA student activities in your local chapter, attend workshops, seminars, conferences, master classes, this certainly sets your private music teaching program above those that offer less opportunities to their students.

A once or twice a year recital is absolutely minimum compared to all the possibilities there are to expand your musical influence on your student body.

It bothers me, and always has that beginning teachers start their prices at the place where the experienced teachers with good reputations have arrived. There is no limit to the amount that "wanna be" teachers are able to charge highly while offering little. I wish the users of our services would wise up to these situations.

When I started in 1971 my half hour price was $6. And, I have ridden the increase up to present rates. Over the years many of us have reluctant to eliminate anyone who would profit from lessons because of the cost.

Respectfully,

Betty Patnude

It's the marketplace that sets the rates, Betty, and experience plays a much smaller role. I had the unpleasant experience this past year of a brand new assistant professor in my field being hired in my department at a higher salary than I am making now after 21 years of dedicated service. Sucks big time, all around. But there's no use getting all bent out of shape, because that's the starting salary we have to offer these days to hire somebody.

Similarly, if the market is supporting $40/hr lessons, or $60, or more, then so be it. Do you really think a new teacher should be charging only $6 simply because that's what you were paid when you started out?

I am not trying to argue that there should be absolutely no differentiation for teaching quality; in other words, a master teacher should and probably is able to charge all the traffic will bear. But I'm guessing that for the typical piano teacher offering lessons privately primarily to children and/or nonprofessionals, there's fairly rapid convergence to a market rate that is relatively stable in a given geographic area. I'm sure piano*dad could explain it all much better (and more accurately) than I.

Monica, I believe your analysis is quite good. The market will tolerate some differentiation among teachers of differing quality, but not very much. Most parents, while having the best interests of their students at heart, and willing to bend over backwards for them, haven't a clue as to what constitutes good teaching and what doesn't. They lack the musical networking where they can learn who is top notch, who is good, and who is mediocre. It's simply not the parents' fault, and most of them resort to the "price" indicator. If most of their shopping is "cost conscience" then this is the mode they are in when shopping for a teacher.

Put it another way - what are the parents experiences with teachers? Primary, if not exclusively, the classroom. They gag when they learn what a classroom teacher receives "per teaching hour" (not what they receive per working hour, but per hour that they are working with students in the formal classroom session). [Aside - I have fun with a teacher one time, when she complained about my rates. I asked her to add up her total teaching time - time she was in formal session with her class, not extra time, which all teachers, music teachers included, work with students needing extra help, etc., nor prep time, but actual bone fide teaching, and to divide her annual salary plus all benefits, including employer's contribution to SS, by that number, and pay me the same. When she figured it out, I never heard another peep from her.]

Once we can get a student in the door, we can educate the parent, and help them understand why our studio is a better opportunity for their student. And of course, help the student along swiftly and correctly.

Trust me...I know the rates are low here.

I am at the high end of the spectrum...but the spectrum is very limited.

On the other hand...I am working from a waiting list, so I will be raising my rates.

Betty: I feel exactly the same way about several of the "music schools" around here. I'm not exactly a super-experienced teacher, but I'm quite progressive in my teaching.

John: I think you misread my post. My rates are higher than $50/hr, and they're going up come September. I do have to deal with a couple of local teachers who haven't changed their rates in 20 years (they still charge $40 and have students lining out the door ).

Nothing beats the lady I heard about in this area a few years back: she was charging around $7 per lesson and she would either sleep or sip at her nipper bottle while the kids played!! Sometimes you really get what you pay for.

You are of course entitled to charge what you like. I think the idea is a good one and the lower price is good incentive to sign up for a regular lesson slot every week. However, I do think the difference in price is too much. As a new student I would see it that you don't really expect anyone to go for the flexible rate as it is almost 70% higer than the lower rate. Therefore it is not really much of a choice. By opting for the lower rate you are saying that there can be no flexibility at all right? This could put some people off.

I understand why you would plan your rates in this way and I agree in principle. I do work in a similar way but the one off fee is only a little higher than the standard fee. Most of my students pay tuition and come every week at the same time. I have one adult who pays each lesson and is not always able to come. I arrange them around my regular students and usually put them at the end of the session. Individual appointments for accompanying, consultations etc. are at the slightly increased hourly rate.

Morodiene:

I'm not talking about that kind of teachers. There are at least two experienced teachers in my area who are still charging $40 per hour--and they're old enough to be my mother! I charge quite a bit more than they do, and thus I've lost students to them (more than the transfers I got _from_ them). They also produce dozens of competition winners each year (as did I, for the past two years). These teachers can be called "market-breakers."

The President of our MTA was dead-on when he called out these "market-breakers" in his presentation at last year's convention. Legally, these teachers are free to do whatever they want, but, economically, their actions do have a negative impact on their colleagues living in the same community.

How true that is, AZN. Really, all independent music teachers are responsible for knowing what others are charging and keeping up with the markets. The ones who should charge less are the new, less experienced teachers. I had started at a low cost when I began teaching, but I would give myself incremental raises. The problem was, my increments weren't keeping up with the market, and before I knew it, I was priced way too low. Then I had to make a huge increase in cost. I lost a few students, but I wasn't really growing in numbers before, and now that I have increased, I'm getting more. I don't know if there's a direct correlation, but I have to believe that the right pricing in a given market will be ideal for business. Not too cheap to make people question and to weed out those who are only looking for a good deal, and not too expensive that I'm the highest priced teacher in the area.

[perspective from a non teacher]

I think its the marketplace and the perception of value that determines what price one is able to charge.

Marketplace. If you taught in Beverly Hills, I strongly suspect you could get away with charging a lot more than, say, if you were to teach in Harlem. One neighborhood is virtually all millionaires, the other is not. Of course, this is an exaggeration, but markets differ from state to state and city to city.

Perception of value. You could buy a handbag for $8 at Wal-Mart, or you could spent ten times that at Coach. One has to implied prejudgements of cheap, inferior quality, non durable, mass produced. The other brings with it the complete opposite, in addition to upper class status, stylistic. These prejudgements may be true or false, but are in the buyers' minds a perception.

If you create a perceived value as to why you are unique amongst your peers (i.e. your local competition), you can get away with charging more, provided the market will bear the price. Pricing strategy also depends on how full your plate is. If you have 40 students, you can afford to charge a little more. If you have two students, its a little different story. How will get the other 38 by charging a premium over your competition?

You must examine what you are offering, how that makes you different from the other teachers, what others are charging, then set you pricing strategy.

A broader perspective, if I may. In my own professional organization's code of ethics, undermining each other through unreasonably low prices is a breach. Internationally it's happening with disastrous consequences. In 1982 as a novice I offered translations at .10/word, and in 2008 agencies have sprung up that get untrained "translators" to work on mega-projects at .02/word or even under .01/word. The market is drying up. I folded once this year and accepted a cheapo-job --- result: $300 are owing me some place between Mexico and India, and that's part of the money that I use to pay for eggs, housing, and ... lessons.

When you work for low pay, you have to do more work in order to earn enough, and the quality of your work suffers. In the teaching world I imagine that you would have so many students that you suffer exhaustion and burn-out. There is also a difference between the teacher who plans lessons, goes over notes ahead of time, and prepares in some way, as opposed to someone who gets a method book and flips through it from page 1 - 25, and in a lesson says "wrong note, play B instead of F" and thinks that's teaching.

Supposing, to exaggerate, that Teacher A prepares an hour for every hour he teaches, and charges $60/hour - effectively that's $30/hour of actual work. The teaching itself is more effective and produces something, because of that preparation. Teacher B does the book-flip thing, and charges $45. For his actual work, he is more expensive. For what he produces, ditto. If you receive next to nothing, then even $5.00 for nothing is expensive. If you are engraining bad habits through careless or wrong teaching, that is VERY expensive, because you will need an expert teacher down the line to fix it, and nerves of steel.

2. The "marketplace" says that a good teacher will be able to charge a high fee, and will therefore charge it. A bad teacher will not get students unless he entices them with low fees.

3. Your market consists of society. Our society in North America has an ongoing trend whereby the affluent are becoming more so, and the poor are becoming increasingly poor. You are finding an abundance of students, to the point of waiting lists, who are willing and able to pay high fees. Essentially this drives fees up all around.

If you follow this further, it means that logically good teachers will become increasingly inaccessible to students of low income. Your demography will consist of the upper echelon, which incidentally is also the group that will have multiple activities going competing for the time spent on yours - soccer, ballet, or piano? The poor student who may be grateful for this one, single, activity will never enter your studio.

If all studios are full to overflowing with waiting lists, and if these sweet dears who are excellent teachers will offer lessons at a lower rate, might that be a safety net for the low income dedicated student? Might this not better than for him to be totally locked out, or trapped into the only thing he can afford, a bad, cheap teacher? In too great a number these teachers will take the students of the more expensive teachers and drive down the rate. Why are they, I wonder?

The reality of the way our world is currently set up would suggest the following: developing musicianship currently is not dependant on will, dedication or ability, as much as it is on economics. If a student cannot access a teacher (or instrument) the rest of it is moot. That is just how it is.

Hmm, I think the young teachers who have the courage to charge what some of the experienced teachers are doing the right thing, I think it's because many people of the younger generation are raised on the idea that it's good to have money.

Although I am a fairly young teacher (30 end of this month), I charge around what the experienced teachers charges (and in some cases more than what some of my colleagues more than twice my age are charging), besides teaching clarinet and piano lessons, I also provide instruction in ear training, sight-reading, rhythmic training, music theory, and ensemble coaching. A fair number of my students have achieved really good results, last spring I had a clarinet student who competed in a National competition, a number of my students earned 90% or better on the Royal Conservatory of Music exams (RCM), Toronto, a couple students play in symphony orchestras (I have an 11 year old RCM Grade 6 level clarinet student who plays in the high school level orchestra, and a 16 year old who plays in a regional orchestra his parents drive him about 40 min one way to study with me! Some of my students have won scholarships and performed in masterclasses, I actually want to charge more than I do, especially considering that I have an onsite pianist at my student, use quite a bit of technology (I record students on video to help them learn about some issues in their playing I need to point out)...and I'm charging $129/month for 45 min lessons or $159/month for 60 min lessons, plus a materials fee. There's teachers who charge a lot more, and teachers who charge a lot less, but I need to watch my student numbers, I'll be teaching at least 20 in September and still need to have time for practicing for various concerts, auditions, and exams plus theory study.

Meri

Good for you. I wish some of the old biddies, oops, excuse me, experienced elder teachers, in our community would learn from your example! Thanks on behalf of the other teachers who are trying to earn a decent income.

My children and I all take lessons. We have never yet quibbled about rates and have paid whatever the teacher that we wanted to study with was asking. The major determinant was finding a good fit. I've paid anywhere from $30/hr to $60/hr, depending on the situation. My earlier comment to Jeremy was related to the price difference ($40 vs. $65) for coaching. In our area, teachers with masters degrees or those who experience good relationships and results charge around $40-50/hr (some more). I know of one fellow who offers coaching at $60/hr - an excellent teacher with a PhD and college position. As a parent and student, I am willing to pay for your expertise.

The other side of the coin is that many don't have that luxury. There is a lady in our rural area who has minimal qualifications and who knows that she's underpriced. She does this because there are many who have difficulty affording lessons and/or have a number of children. She serves a specific market. She is also very good with young children and they stay quite motivated and have fun. Our area doesn't have enough piano teachers and she fills a niche - she's much appreciated.

I think the major problem is that some people don't place as much value on music education as they do on sports, acquiring gadgets, etc. For a child to play hockey in our area costs an enormous amount and people don't bat an eye. You and I know that you're worth a living wage, but you can only charge according to what members of the community value. Who can rationalize what hockey/basketball players earn?

Many of us value you highly. Your best predictor of being over or underpriced is the number of students on your waiting list (without taking advantage in under served areas - like mine:)

When I said that my first fee from piano lessons was $6 per half hour, I was not advocating that anyone start at that level today.

A piano teacher who has been through college to major in music is certainly entitled to charge what other professionals charge in teaching.

We do know though and have met the ones who have little preparation, with a hobbyist slant to music and stay just slightly ahead of their students. There have been some strong disagreements when they post because they do laugh at us who have a few more ethics, standards, responsibility to our businesses.

That is the kind of situation I bemoan where the parents and students have no idea of what they are buying or what the results might be.

I love that youth continues to be choosing music as a career and that a good living can be made by the many contributions these new and younger teachers can make.

I also remember the times we discussed fees and studio policies in our music teaching chapter. Everyone was concerned that their prices would be disclosed - so the group did it by writing on small paper and turning their answers in to be read and later tabulated to the questions that had been asked. Everyone received anonymity.

Twenty years later I think the Q. and A. over the same subject would be handled the same way.

John, you are cracking me up, you know you and I are the same age this year, and if I get to be an old betty, there are a lot of other people I know in the same boat.

Isn't retirement simply the fact that you are tired two nights in a row? Well, I've had that problem since I gave birth to my children many years ago.

My very best wishes to Meri the musiclady! It's nice to meet you!

Betty