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Betty--

If we did that at our MTA branch, there'd be a wide spread ($15/hr - $100/hr). But I'd be interested to know where the median rate lies.

We've run into a situation in regards to discussing our fees over in the translation corner. Apparently US law prohibits price fixing. The one US-based site (like PW) will not allow professionals to name their fees and compare them because of legalities. The American professional organization doesn't discuss fees either. But on the other site, which is Canadian-based, we do discuss fees, and there is a published survey in graph form of what percentage of people charge a given fee. My Canadian professional organization (sort of like the MTNA but with a lot of differences) does have a survey and statistics.

Is any of this of use when translated into private music teaching terms?

Btw, we are also fighting a trend in which the customer tries to impose his wishes on the professional: what the fee structure should be, how it's administered, what tools should be used, and how the professional should be working. We have a large number of untrained people who are being exploited and buying into that trend. It makes it hard for those of us who are actually trained professionals to maintain our standards, enforce the procedure we've been trained into that we know works, and even to have a market in the marketplace, since they are also offering super low rates, impossible results (all of which impinge on quality). We're running an ongoing "education" of customers and would-be translators, and it seems to be a losing battle. With the Internet, an American firm might negotiate with a German firm and hire an Indian agency that hires a Mexican translator, both in countries where the cost of living is lower, and neither subject to the ethical standards to which I must adhere. How do you compete with that? At least your "market" (students) are in your neighbourhood.

I hope it's ok to post this as a non-teacher, and to offer the cross-comparison. If it is utterly unhelpful and is cluttering the thread, let me know.

I agree completely with you on this statement, Betty. Knowledge and competence are, imo, more important determinants of teaching rates than is simple years of experience. I've seen enough deadwood in my colleagues to have a healthy skepticism regarding mere years of experience as an index of quality. However, my earlier comments were in response to your statement a few posts above that, where you said:


I hope you can see how this is really a different sentiment, and one that I wouldn't agree with. It appears you have changed your mind about this issue as well, given your later comments. Flexibility is good.

Keystring, you wrote: This is true, but piano teachers are not engaged in Interstate Commerce, so the US law doesn't apply to piano teachers. States may have a similar law, but not all do. Many teachers' organizations, rather than aggressively defending teachers, take the easy way out, and avoid the subject.

And comparing prices is not price fixing, as have many court cases held. Shoppers from Safeway visit Walmart and Target, specifically to compare prices, and Target pricers visit Walmart and Safeway for the same purpose.

A novice teacher might have unjaded idealistic enthusiasm, an ability to see each student uniquely with fresh eyes, the memory of her own student days not far away (or current) enabling her to identify with her students. She may have far less students and so more time to invest in each one. What I imagine as ideal might be having access to an experienced teacher as a kind of mentor.

We translators constantly run into someone wanting to break into the profession for the first time and asking about rates and how to get customers. The first advice is to make sure that you have enough training in all aspects of the field (including business management, as per John). Secondly, to charge close to what an experienced veteran charges, but be prepared to work three times as hard, take four times as long, and consider it a learning period. Quality should be the goal from the beginning, not: I'll charge less because I will produce a lower quality. Similarly, a student deserves good teaching from the beginning, no?

Would it stand to reason that if a new teacher took a lot of time to prepare lessons, whereas an experienced teacher has a lot of it already as well honed routine and would take less time, the new teacher could also offer quality teaching? Plus, with the opportunities of networking that exist nowadays the teacher would have a lot more resources at her disposal.

I'm putting it forth just in the remote case that it is an issue, because of our discussions. Over in our corner we were trying to get a handle on what reasonable fees might be, so that translators were talking to each other, in the same way that teachers are doing so over here. Somebody said "Whoah, you can't do that, because of American price-fixing laws." We: this isn't price fixing blabla... and "we're not in the U.S.". Some lawyers got on board and said US law was international law and it got hairy. We have Canadian agencies charging their customers .30/word and others trying to pay .005 (yes, half a penny per word) etc. etc. --- and then we're told that we should not discuss what the norm could be. The reasoning is that professionals are getting together to agree on one fee. Some say that is monopoly or price fixing.

When you shop around, you're doing it as a consumer. When Walmart, Sears and Staples get together to decide that toilet paper will be sold for $2.50, that's price fixing.

In the Canadian professional organization there is a survey with results published on-line, where we can see what our colleagues are charging in freelance translation, and in what percentage. Our code of ethics states that we must not undermine our colleagues through humungous unreasonable discounts. We must also guarantee quality work, not misrepresent ourselves (similar to the MTNA), so there is a relationship of quality and price.

I think some of this might be pertinent or helpful to music teaching, which is freelance, which is why I'm sharing this.

Keystring:
There's a fine line between price fixing and pricing yourself within a given market. Everyone prices themselves within a given market if they want to stay in business. That's not getting together and deciding "we'll charge this amount", it is "what will the consumer pay for a given service?" Comparing one's prices with a teacher of equal experience and credentials is perfectly legal, moral, and actually a good thing for everyone involved. A beginner teacher should charge less because they do not have experience. When I was a beginner teacher, I did things that perhaps weren't the best pedagogically, and learned from that experience. I also learned to run a business, often the hard way. Still, I think I was a good teacher and my students then enjoyed their lessons as they do now. I just have more experience and credentials, which caused me to increase my rates. I still did not want to price myself out of the market or be the highest in the area, so I found out where that ceiling was by investigating what others charge. That is different from all the teachers getting together and saying "this is what we'll all charge." The former is simply smart business practice, whereas the latter skews the market by dictating to the consumer what they will pay no matter where they go.

Morodiene, I agree. I am simply passing on what has come my way in a similar situation by the remote chance that the same argument will be made by somebody somewhere. En masse international discussions are a new phenomenon. We've had lawyers getting into the fray. One of the questions was area of jurisdiction of the hosting forum: our main one is based in Canada, the other one in the U.S. None of us thought of these things until it was pointed out.

Akira, not that this takes away from your main point, but Harlem is no more than 20 minutes on the subway from some of the richest parts of New York (And Harlem itself is gentrifying pretty quickly, actually). A good piano teacher in Harlem could probably charge close to as much as one in Beverly Hills.

I think you've hit this one on the head, ks. And it's the same in the area in which I mainly work. I spend days getting my fingers around some deadly difficult piece and charge the soloist roughly the same as one of my more experienced colleagues who (because he's experienced) has played this work before and put in all the hard yards. We're both aiming for quality, and delivering it. It's just that it might take me longer and more effort to achieve it. And similarly with someone who is less experienced than I am. I have no problem with them charging the same as me, if quality is the aim and they are doing what is necessary to achieve it.