A question for the Suzuki Piano gurus. I came across a brief article about Suzuki Piano and the concepts behind it and was fascinated enough with the idea (which makes absolute perfect sense, IMO) to want to learn more about it.

Do any of you that teach Suzuki use the method with teenagers and/or adults? Or does the very nature of the "mother toungue" concept preclude all but very young children from benefiting?

The Suzuki method was apparently originally
developed for the violin, and then adapted
to the piano. It seems particularly well-
suited to the violin, where you play
mainly a single-line melody. But with
the piano you're quickly going to have
to start playing chords, and then the
Suzuki method may no longer be so effective.

A further questionable feature of the
method is the delaying of note-reading.
For an amateur, note-reading ability is
all-important, since this is what enables
one to explore the literature for the
piano. Moreover, with the emphasis
on memorization in classical piano lessons,
students often come to rely on memorization
and let their reading skills decline, so
anything that further limits the development
of good note-reading seems questionable.

The most important thing is the teacher, more than the method. Inability to read notes is as large an issue in violin forums as it is in piano forums, but many Suzuki teachers use the system wisely and do not have that problem. For any method, one could surmise that two people make a difference as to its effectiveness: the teacher and the student.

I don't know about that. One, because I managed to find one of the books on Suzuki teaching which clearly recommended another method (Music Tree? Piano Town? One of those.) to teach note reading along with Suzuki, but as an adjunct. Two, what interests me about the method is this "mother toungue" concept, which suggests that music is best learned by children the same way they learn their native language. It seems to stress musicality over the technical. I find that fascinating, because it's clear that most of the traditional methods do the exact opposite.

Disclosure: my parents wouldn't get me piano lessons when I was 10, so I set out to teach myself. I picked out tunes by ear, bought a used book on chords, spent hours figuring out how to read music, etc. By high school I was playing for the school choir. I played better than the kids who had been taking traditional piano lessons for years. It seemed to me that their playing sounded mechanical and was this huge effort for them. My own playing, by comparison, was smooth and effortless. They sweated over each beat of a piece while I could just play it without thinking. I didn't really take any formal lessons until college, and that was more about learning different and better fingering than I had managed to work out on my own.

So you can see why the Suzuki concepts might interest me.

i'm *SO* confused... i do not teach Suzuki, but i was brought up learning Suzuki... the only thing that i notticed as a child that was different with this program is that i was made to listen to the CDs... there was a great emphasis on ear training...

and for the record, i never had a problem reading notes learning Suzuki...

You didn't have a problem with reading notes because you had a good, responsible Suzuki teacher. You are lucky! Unfortunately, there are many piano students who aren't as lucky as you. Like I said in another thread, you will find teachers who either embrace Suzuki completely, or reject it completely. I still maintain the teacher is the one who's responsible, not the program itself.

On the other hand, I learned violin through the Suzuki method. It is a flawed program. It has spawned a generation (or two!) of violinists who can't sight read. And sight reading is now a rampant problem in the violin community. I learned to read notes before I started Suzuki violin, so I was way ahead of the game when it comes to sight reading.

I've been away from the violin circles for a while now, so I don't know if people have recently come up with a solution to combat the Suzuki problem.

What I have patched together about Suzuki is this:

A variety of teachers (violin - what I know about) teach the Suzui method. Some are classically trained and combine their knowledge with the Suzuki method. Many are attracted to the gentle nurturing attitude, and may have had a harsh experience themselves. Others only have Suzuki training. I have seen, on-line, a person who had only been playing violin for one year being encouraged to teach new students. I don't know what prerequisites exist. There is, however, a strong ongoing support system where Suzuki teachers attend meetings and workshops, continual training and education therefore, and help each other solve teaching difficulties. So an inexperienced person who is still learning might be able to teach earlier because of this support system. Also, I have the impression that "how to teach" is systemized through the teaching material.

Because of the little I have seen, I have concluded that the teacher, his background and approach within the Suzuki approach, is what matters.

In violin circles, a problem with reading and a dependence on tapes that are placed as a visual aid for fingering, is often identified. The need to look at these tapes can lead to a leftward orientation of the head which can cause neck problems. However, many violin teachers who used the Suzuki method do so effectively and with forethought, so that their students do not have these problems.

I have just googled the background of Shinichi Suzuki. His father manufactured violins, and young Suzuki spent his childhood setting soundposts, i.e. he was involved in the making of violins. Then: There you have the hallmark of the "Suzuki method".
Suzuki went on to study with a violin teacher "Karl Klinger" in Germany. We know nothing of Klinger's background, nor how long he studied with him. We do know that after having taught himself to play the violin, Suzuki had formal training. I had a book on Suzuki and one on Ivan Galamian, who changed violin playing in the West and preceded that of Suzuki by a few years, and also set out the mechanics of violin playing very systematically. What is written seems similar: did S read G?

Suzuki did not develop a method, and did not want his teachings to turn into one. His was a philosophy, an attitude that every child can have a talent developed by being nurtured by parents and educators and in a similar way in which he imagined children learn languages, hence the expression "mother tongue":
I understand that many adults learn via the Suzuki approach. Children do not, in fact, learn language in the way Suzuki describes. That is, they do not learn language because people make an effort to talk to them and expose them to words. Language learning is innate, and begins through both imitation and experimentation of the senses, the picking up of patterns of inflection and rhythms - think of how babble develops - and children seem to be guided through an internal template that leads them along a series of milestones common to all languages and cultures. That doesn't make Suzuki's ideas of listening to good music and imitating it more or less valid. It is how he, himself, learned initially.

* Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinichi_Suzuki

My daughter was just 4 when she began Suzuki violin, which she continued till age 12. Having watched her play in front of music on a stand for so many years, I can only say I was speechless when she told me a few weeks ago that she cannot read music. In her view Suzuki violin, and she had more than one teacher, 'failed' her in that respect.

Sundew, have you and your daughter come up with a strategy to rectify the situation? A drawback, if you can readily play by ear, is that the easier thing wants to take over, while if you can't read AND can't play, you're forced to read.

Your daughter has gained many abilities through her Suzuki training. Now she only needs to add the part she doesn't have, probably starting with simply music below her level to learn to read, until both skills are even. Is there a teacher who can help her with that?

(I spent a lifetime playing music and reading in a strange way and had to bring the two together. It can be done.)

I am a Suzuki piano teacher and would like to think of myself as "one of the responsible ones", as AZNpiano states in her post.

My students do learn to read just as well (if not more easily) than do tradiionally trained students. This is one of the reasons I teach this philosophy of using the mother tongue approach.

I can't go on to elaborate, I have to leave the house, but will post again later on the subject of Suzuki piano for the non-child student.

Do Suzuki principles work for non-children?

Basicially, you may want to ask yourself this question:

If I was to learn a second language, would I as an adult be able to learn it through immersion?

It is the same principle.

So the answer is yes.

Although as a teacher, I've noticed, that children use this way of learning like it is second nature, because for them it is.

Therefore, I prefer to teach young children using this approach because it is most natural for them and I do not expect them to do anything more but learn from what they hear and see.

With adults, and this could my weakness as a teacher, but for me, I find that adults should be learning to read music sooner than a child and grasp things in a more comprehensive way. This is not to say this is the best or right way. It is just how I feel as a teacher when teaching adults.

Hope this answers your question.

Keystring, thank you for your interest. I did offer her my beginning method books as an introduction to reading, but she declined in a gentle and graceful manner. She is now 21 and very busy with her studies. Whatever Suzuki has contributed, the early exposure to music has certainly developed/enhanced a natural talent. There are advantages to playing by ear and for a small child faced with many learning demands {she also began recorder at infant school}, who loves to produce 'music' the easiest route is surely inevitably the most attractive. As an adult who loves making 'music' I have the same preference. I can sight read but my play be ear skill is poor. If adult suzuki piano combines a development of the 2 then, if I was a complete beginner, both musically and instrumentally, I would wish to know more of the system as a possible learning choice. We found with violin in the early stages that there was no going outside of the Suzuki books and boredom did become a problem. BTW learning violin was her own choice.

BTW, I'm a "he."

Now that I look at it from a broader perspective, perhaps my insistence on note-reading for young students _did_ turn off a lot of potentially good talents. Those who stuck it out with me ended up being super good sight readers playing intermediate to advanced pieces by fourth grade. I just hope that those who quit lessons from me eventually found a good, patient teacher who fostered their musical talents in a different direction than I did.