I'm curious whether any teachers have experience teaching students with dyslexia how to read music. My daughter is currently being tested for a learning disability. She is six and has been taking lessons for three months. The lessons are going well, but it just occurred to me recently that her difficulty learning to read text might relate to learning to read music. Just wondering if anyone had any ideas.

Matt

Matt,

You might observe how she writes alphabet letters and numbers on a paper. Is there anything unusual about them, or about holding the pencil/crayons, or her direction in forming them?

I had a new transfer student write numbers for me who was standing opposite me facing me with a paper between us and a pencil in her hand. We were labeling finger numbers on the (her) hands we had just traces.

I said, your thumbs are number 1, and she put 1's on the pinkies of each hand. Then we compared hands, and showed that the thumbs were in the middle of the drawings. Oh! She put 1's on the thumbs correctly. Then, I said will you label the other fingers using 2-3-4-5 please? She did this completing one hand at a time (some students do the 2's, then the 3's on both hands at once)switching back and forth. We also labeled the LH and the RH. When she was finished, it was incredible that she had written on the paper upside down and backwards (I think is how you would explain it). I could read from my side of the paper (her numbers were on the nails area of the fingertips facing me.) What she would see from her viewpoint was not the way you would read them. This is dyslexia. We now have to figure out how she is oriented to the tasks she is doing.

She had piano lessons for 6 months, only in one fixed position, middle C, and cannot play if her fingers move to different keys. She did not know her fingers had numbers assigned to them, and she reads totally by letter name. However, she cannot play with a different finger on that letter name, if you understand what I am saying.

I had a previous student who was a beginner with me, she stayed for 4 years and played well, and composer at a higher level than she could play, a very interesting young musician.

At her first lesson when I ask her to place her hands on the piano (age 6), she laid the tops of her hands on the keyboard with the fingers pointing to the ceiling. I always had to pay attention as to how she was seeing, hearing, feeling what we were doing at the lessons. You don't want information to be stored incorrectly, so you teach carefully and verify.

Her aural abilities were her best, visual was difficult for her (spatial - up, down, left, right), tactilely she would be unusual in her responses. I think that piano lessons really helped her in many, many ways, and she was a diligent and happy piano student with a great amount of mental discipline for following through in what we would do at lessons. Charming, sweet, cheerful, but easily confused at the piano either on the music staff, or the keyboard locations.

Eye doctors tell parents to take their children to piano lessons to improve their vision when they have problems visually. It's supposed to be helpful. However, parents and eye doctors usually don't inform the piano teachers about the child's needs and you wind up witnessing them first hand and looking for a remedy.

I think your piano teacher should be informed of the findings when you finish the testing. Has the piano teacher made any comments about noticing a learning difference?

Betty

I'm curious - is dyslexia already diagnosed at age 6, when children are just learning to read?

No, keystring. She is being evaluated currently. And maybe they can't do a definitive diagnosis this early. We'll see what they say.

Thank you, Betty, for your reply. Those stories are very interesting--much more extreme than anything my daughter has done. Actually, I think she is having less trouble learning to read music than learning to read words. Her piano teacher thinks she is progressing normally. She is very musical, though she has some of the same troubles learning to read music that a lot of kids have, playing through bar lines, pausing when changing hand positions, etc. I don't notice anything out of the ordinary, though I will certainly apprise her teacher if we learn anything.

Many of us had to cope with dyslexia, to a lessor or greater degree. I still transpose numbers and letters more often than I would like. I grew up in an era when each individual child was expected to cope with whatever lot life dealt him (or her) and you either decided to whine or to overcome the problem as best you could. BTW, I should have been a lefty, but my 1st grade teacher decided I should write right-handed, and that was that! At any rate, Matt, it hasn't seemed to hamper my musicality or pianism, so I advise patience and hard work, and the result will be it's own reward.

Matt, the reason I was asking is because I am a former teacher and have some training in learning disabilities and have also done private teaching on occasion since I changed careers. Six seems awfully young to be suspecting a learning disability and testing for it. The first thing I wonder is whether she is a young six or an old six. In other words, kids whose birthday fall in January are almost a full year older when they start grade one then those whose birthdays fall in September. The eye-hand coordination and other other hallmarks of growth are markedly different and sometimes that sets up self-concept of ability to learn for years to come.
One of the ways around various learning disabilities involves using different senses. In academic teaching we tend to use speech and vision, and lessons are presented in a sequenced manner. If a child cannot think in a linear sequenced manner (listing things, buttoning a row of buttons) that's a problem. (Many LD students see globally). A child might be a tactile learner. The thing is that music is often presented in our linear manner but it doesn't have to be. But that's jumping the gun. Does this child even have a learning disability, and how is she doing with piano?

Keystring,

Would you be willing to comment on the transfer student I wrote about above in my last post? This young lady (age 7 as of Oct) had 6 months of lesson in the winter last year. She cannot play if her hands leave the middle C positions. If "D" is other than finger 2, she will still play finger 2, even though the note might be marked 1, and we have several times worked through a keyboard graphic.

I think the global vision might be her problem, she is everywhere at once with what interests her on the page, and she changes the subject upteen times.

Where can I learn more (I have a number of articles about learning differences) and need to know more specifically what to look for. She also has very flat fingers which work strangely when one is being played others also move in response.

I copied the page she had written her 5 finger numbers on her drawn hand today....and I think an educator in LD would respond quickly just by seeing it.

Any ideas at all? I would so appreciate a qualified response!

Betty

Bump.

Since the topic of learning disabilities has come up in the thread on counting problems, I thought this topic might get some response.

An update on my daughter: she was diagnosed with a learning disability related to reading. The school didn't use the word dyslexia for some reason. We are learning how to help her learn to read. (She is also considered "gifted and talented," so she is twice exceptional.) Just wondering if anyone knows of any issues or has any advice related to piano instruction.

Hello everyone,

This is a topic very dear to me. Over the years I have taught scores of gifted children, teenagers and several adults with various degrees of learning disabilities - commonly referred to as twice exceptional as Matt said. In addition, I raised a highly gifted child (now 21) who is ADD. Consequently, this became the topic of my DMA dissertation and I did an awful lot of reading and learning about it, in addition to practical experience.

Betty here has a PDF copy of the PowerPoint presentation I recently did and it lists some of the issues, as well as tips on how to teach these kids. --Betty, if you look at pages 9-11 (Dyslexia) and pages 16-17 (ADD/ADHD) it will tell you a lot about how to deal with this child. It is quite common for Dyslexia and ADD to be present together and there are specific ways to address them in lessons to ensure the child is successful.

However, the variations and combinations, as well as the degrees of learning disabilities make it impossible to give a "blanket" answer, so it has to be specific and based on each child's situation.

Unfortunately, the presentation is what it is - a point presentation, so a lot is missing. But, I can send it to anyone who's interested - and then answer specific questions. It is too bad we can't attach anything to these posts as you can with email - or, I simply have not yet discovered how to do it. The audio recording of the presentation is available from the MTNA conference website - in fact I just ordered it myself. If you want more info - please let me know, give me your email address and I'll answer as promptly as I can. Having the PowerPoint and the recording together will be very helpful.

As much as one can learn (and needs to learn) from special education about these disabilities, no special education addresses the specific needs of the gifted and how to teach them piano/music. Private music teachers are basically left to their own devices in trying to educate themselves on how to teach these kids and help them reach their REAL potential, rather than just having them "do well."

Yet we are in a unique position to make a really positive impact in these students' lives. I have an adult student who quit piano when she was a kid because she thought it was too difficult. Also, even though she is gifted, her progress was nowhere near where she should've been! Working with her I saw all the red flags for Dyslexia. I asked questions, and then suggested that there is a strong possibility of Dyslexia. Then I started applying some of the techniques and saw immediate response - things were no longer "foggy." Sure enough - she began improving at a great pace and we removed a lot of frustration.

It also needs to be said - of all the instruments, piano is THE most difficult for Dyslexics, for many many reasons, but mostly because of the way they process information. And, not all Dyslexics have the same type of problem in decoding information, so it has to always be a custom designed approach! My students all overcame the challenges and were able to progress. However, for some, playing an instrument other than piano, is a better solution.

Anyhow, I wrote an awful lot already. Questions, anyone? I'd prefer to give targeted answers to specific questions - generalizations just don't work with this issue.

Jelena, can I beg a copy of the presentation?

Yeah, but only if you also include sniveling and groveling, fellow Canuck! :p

Just give me your email in PM and you'll get it instantly.

Jelena,

I'm so glad you're here to guide us and provide input on these learning differences.

I notice the problems fairly easily, can describe them, but don't know how to make a difference in teaching to these students. We usually get there through persistance which is quite time consuming.

I'll order the tape, too, from MTNA. You, being a presenter at MTNA and sharing this information with us here is just what the rest of us need to know.

Thanks so very much!

Betty

Betty, thanks for your kind words!

Your comment on seeing the symptoms but being at a loss how to address the situation is basically what everyone at the conference said. It's a common trouble we're all in!

I took on this issue almost as a crusade. As a mother of a twice exceptional child and as a teacher of many, I saw first hand how these kids are basically left high and dry with the education system. I am determined to travel the country and present everywhere for teachers in order to help them help their students and families and to change the culture!

Interesting thread.

I have a student who is dyslexic. She copes well with most components of our lesson, and she and her parents and I are happy with her progress..... but she absolutely cannot remember finger numbers.

Betty's post jumped out at me.

Hello everyone...
I'm a teacher but not a music teacher, and now adult self-learner; don't have dyslexia but had "hyperlexia" as a child; now my most accurate diagnosis would be Asperger's Syndrome; and still struggle with many aspects of parallel multitasking in reading and playing keyboard music, as well as with motivation and frustration.

Hope I can tell you what I know 'from inside', and learn from you here...

I wrote more in Adult Beginner's Forum > Asperger's music joys and frustrations.
Also in Digital pianos, synths > Casio keyboard voices and Organs > Hearing registrations, for my 'technical' side...

Daffodil, finger numbers are sequential and space-oriented, and dyslexics have problems with both. I explored the question with Betty at her request since I have some LD training - I wonder whether that particular child was in fact dyslexic since it was diagnosed at an age when coordination and such are still coming together. Very often a "summer child" with a summer birthday manifests learning difficulties because that child is almost a full year younger than a "winter child". Some teachers knowing of this will actually delay their child's entry in school since that first impression of clumsiness, which is age related, will set up a self-concept of inability that can stay from that time on.

In any case, I explored the idea of finger numbers from that viewpoint, partly by working with them myself. Since I'm restarting the piano and haven't had formal training in it before I had an excellent vantage point.

The left and right hand are mirror images, and that already causes confusion for someone who has trouble with visual-spacial components, as well as sequencing.

I came up with "individualizing" the fingers and giving them a personality, and switching from visual to tactile. The thumb is a big, heavy, flexible fellow, and happens to be called "1". The forefinger makes me want to point at things and his name is "2". My middle finger is in the middle and is a veritable giant and they call him "3" (and he's definitely a he). etc.

These personalities reside in both hands. I have a big hefty guy called "1" with the attributes of a thumb in both hands, because I have two thumbs. I would have the child explore what the thumb means to him, so that he has a personal relationship with his thumb, the 1, and he will be able to relate to "1", and his thumb, if you require him to know this finger. The need occurs in music in those places where there is a sudden change in fingering and hand position, or where the placement of the hand on the fingerboard is indicated by finger numbering. You have to be able to identify your fingers so that you can interpret these instructions.

It takes a while to get used to these identities so I thought of bringing in the fingers with their names slowly, since the dyslexic has more than one task going. Let the personality of 1 and 2, thumbness and index fingerness, take root for a full week so that it's very familiar personality.

In playing, on the piano one note sits beside the other and the ups and downs are easy to find because they make sense.

But the visual aspect is again problematic with dyslexia. Orienting visually is hard. So I thought of a tactile approach and even used it. D is a note that nestles nicely between two black keys. I can feel and trace those two black keys, and the D nestles nicely between them. That is the "personality" of a D other than its sound. G and A are also nestling notes. I start building up a tactile map of two mountains having a D nestled in between, and only one valley, and another tactile map of three mountains and two valleys with G and A nestling in between.

I don't really think of mountains and valleys. There is a tactile association, however, and as I play this map begins to take form. The personality of fat-flexible-1-thumb comes to play the personality or character of nestled note D.

A map begins to build which is the same as the visual map, with two black keys, three black keys, the white keys in between as well as note names and such. However the image is not so much a visual one of black and white, but a topography of hills and valleys richly and deliberately experienced. Personally, I then also visualized the tactile sensation as a visual one, where I could see the blacks and whites in my mind's eye as I played, but I did not actually look down in order to not confuse myself.

The main thing was to replace tactile + audial, in lieu of visual + audial, and to avoid too great an emphasis on sequencing. The numbers are used sequentially when you play a scale, but you are not drawing on the sequenced recital of numbers in learning finger numbers since that is a weak area.

I have worked with learning disabilities, but I am not trained in it musically since I am a music student, not teacher. It would be wonderful to get Jelena's input, since she is a specialist in that area as I understand it, right within the field of music.

Is anyone here familiar with the book The Gift of Dyslexia? I read it once when working with a student who seemed to have those tendencies.