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#964372 - 11/11/07 06:14 PM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2919
Loc: UK.
“So if I wanted t go to Ray Charles or Erroll Garner or Blake, Wonder...and the rest of accomplished successful keyboard player for "lessons" to play like they do I would have to consider them unqualified and myself "damaged"? They can't see if my body is rigid and my wrists "fluid".........Yikes.”[/b]

Who said that any such pianists would take students? I am quite sure that they would not pretend that after a few lessons you could play ‘like they do’.

“Chris I am sorry but you are the embodiment "classic" elitist. One way the right way.”[/b]

On what do you base this assumption?

“Is Erroll Garner MORE professional then Mr Brooks or Chris because he has sold a ton of his work to the "unsuspecting" public who do not realize he cannot read a note?”[/b]

Now you compare yourself to the likes of Erroll Garner. Earlier you admitted that you were not very good. Make your mind up. None of this has anything to do with whether or not you play from notation or by ear. It’s about you charging money to teach something which you cannot do.

“All my "students" want to do is learn some theory and play what THEY HEAR. If I teach them chord construction and scales all they have to figure out is the melody by ear if they want to play another's work.”[/b]

You make it sound so simple. It’s a wonder that anyone needs any form of tuition.

“It is my guess you cannot face the reality that some people given the choice choose to play by ear and do not want to become virtuoso pianists.”[/b]

Not true. I offer them the choice and can help them either way. Can you?

“Sir only an elitist snob would understand what "riff raff" really is. There are no such people in the world to me. Everyone is equally relevant. I charge because that's what my time is worth, In fact my time is worth far more. People will learn to do what they want to do in far less time then if they were to pay a traditional teacher for a year, at then end of which they may be able to play Fur Elise "correctly".”[/b]

You mentioned ‘riff-raff’, not me. If your time is worth far more then why not charge it? I am sure there is a ‘market’. I dispute that your students learn in less time than they would with any good teacher. You clearly have no idea what constitutes a ‘good’ teacher. Would you care to define the ‘traditional’ teacher? Still, nobody has come up with a satisfactory, unbiased description.

“Who did the 'greats" take lessons from?”[/b]

I would say that they took inspiration from ‘the greats’ before them. Wouldn’t it be nice for piano students to have access to ‘the greats’ from all styles? That is what should be on offer.
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

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#964373 - 11/11/07 06:15 PM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5640
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
I'd like to speak to the "damage" issue - my impression is that there are those who worry that if one plays piano "wrong" there can be physical damage - carpal tunnel or tendinitis or something. Possible, I'm sure, as is damage from computer keyboarding or whatever.

But you know, life happens. My niece played competitive level soccer and believe me she learned how to play it right, how to do the right warm-up exercises and stretches and everything else, so there wouldn't be the kind of inadvertent damage some folks here worry about (altho damage just happens playing soccer).

I, on the other hand, played one season of soccer in my mid-forties on the faculty-staff intramural team at a college against students half my age, some of whom were varsity basketball players. I barely top 5 feet. Did I sustain some damage? Yup, as if you couldn't guess. Strained the same ligament I strained ski racing in a recreational league with a bunch of folks who had never had "professional" ski racing instruction, just occasional workshops. Put a cut over an eye in a run-in with one of those basketball players going for a contested ball (I won \:\) ). Went to national finals in the recreational ski racing program. Wiped out at least once there, causing some damage. I raced on the same course as some pros, but decidedly not in the same league. *It wasn't the point.* Being *better* than I was doing it the way I was doing it *wasn't the point.* I was having a great time recreational ski racing and recreational soccer playing. And my niece's coaches weren't running around saying "adults shouldn't be playing soccer without professional coaching because they'll never be as good as they could be and they'll have bad habits they can't erase and besides they might hurt themselves, and they shouldn't be paying anyone who gives them coaching who isn't a pro, and even if they do they shouldn't pay them as much as they'd pay me!." (Oh, and by the way, I was the Ladie's Day ski racing pace setter and would set up courses and run folks thru racing exercises - all with only racing recreationally and taking a few workshops as a background.)

Pianitis is teaching adults recreational piano. I played recreational soccer, which has at least as many physical risks as piano playing. Adults make their own choices. I see absolutely no reason adults shouldn't (and many many do) learn and play recreational piano any way that suits them. And pay anything they choose to pay. I didn't mislead the ski racers on Ladie's Day - I was just a better racer than them. Pianitis isn't misleading the folks who learn from him - but he knows things they want to know.

I have also taught math to returning adults who for the most part are starting at something around the level of sixth grade. Believe me, many of them learned more math from each other than from me. They had to take a formal course because the college required it, but many of them did *not* learn math in that kind of an environment, and, bless them, they figured out how to learn some other way so they could *pass the tests* that were required. I have a math degree, and at no point did I think they needed to learn only from me or others with a math degree. Do I think that having a math degree helped *me* to teach better? Yup. Did I know some things that perhaps someone without a math degree, and in particular my students, didn't know they needed? Yup. Did I then say, oh, you can't teach each other because I know those things that you don't know? Nope. Did I think that taking a college remedial course was the only way to learn what they were missing? Nope. I also taught a Continuing Ed course which was, as Pianitis is doing, essentially student driven. I happen to think that basic math is a life skill that is every bit as necessary as making music. But you can often learn what you need from your Grandmother.

Adults (and children, too) learn things from each other in informal ways *all the time.* I have taught basic accounting to I don't even know how many of my colleagues thru the years. Sometimes it takes longer than it would if they'd just go take a course, because they only learn a little bit, out of context sometimes, or they don't use it every day. I happen to think basic accounting is extremely useful knowledge to any one in business or in a non-profit. Not knowing basic accounting can lead to problems with the IRS. But I don't require them to learn it in a formal environment, or to learn more than they happen to want or have time to learn at a given moment. They're adults. It's their choice.

I liked Pianitis' comparison to learning to play recreational guitar. Some friends of mine just "performed" in their church's coffee house. Probably didn't play much more than 3 chords in the key of G. Sang Puff the Magic Dragon. Loved every minute of it and have for years. I don't see piano as different.

However, I *do* think there's more folks on the ABF who learn without formal lessons than Pianitis seems to have found. It's always seemed to me it's about 1/2 and 1/2 there. And we all encourage each other no matter what way we learn or what style of music we play \:\)

Cathy
_________________________

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#964374 - 11/11/07 06:56 PM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
Eternal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 1285
Loc: Posts: 80,372
I have no problem with Pianitist's approach. As long as he gives his customers a full disclosure of his credentials (i.e. he is not a real piano teacher). It's free market - what you're doing is worth as much as people are willing to pay for it.

I understand, his customers see him play something, and enjoy it to the point where they'd like to play like that themselves. If he tells them he can teach them how to do it in 4 lessons, and delivers on that promise - then what's the problem?
A question to the teachers - how much would your typical student be able to play after 4 lessons?

I guess the people in question, are simply tired of talking lessons for months, and not being able to play anything (other than scale exercises), when their friends ask them to. As Pianitist said - some people just want to make music. I don't blame those people, and I don't see anything wrong with Pianitist providing a service that fills that need.

It's analogous to learning a foreign language. You can either start with grammar (tenses, memorizing irregular verbs), or you just learn some basic words and common phrases, and start talking right away. In the long run - you're better off with knowing the grammar. But if all you want to do is go on a 2 week vacation abroad, you'll be fine with the basics.

Just to be clear - I personally prefer the traditional method of teaching. Although I am self-teaching, I spend most of my time learning how to sight-read. But at the same time, I recognize that there is a need for what Pianitist is providing, and there's nothing wrong with that.

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#964375 - 11/11/07 07:43 PM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12153
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Eternal:
I have no problem with Pianitist's approach. As long as he gives his customers a full disclosure of his credentials (i.e. he is not a real piano teacher). It's free market - what you're doing is worth as much as people are willing to pay for it.

I understand, his customers see him play something, and enjoy it to the point where they'd like to play like that themselves. If he tells them he can teach them how to do it in 4 lessons, and delivers on that promise - then what's the problem?
A question to the teachers - how much would your typical student be able to play after 4 lessons?

I guess the people in question, are simply tired of talking lessons for months, and not being able to play anything (other than scale exercises), when their friends ask them to. As Pianitist said - some people just want to make music. I don't blame those people, and I don't see anything wrong with Pianitist providing a service that fills that need.

It's analogous to learning a foreign language. You can either start with grammar (tenses, memorizing irregular verbs), or you just learn some basic words and common phrases, and start talking right away. In the long run - you're better off with knowing the grammar. But if all you want to do is go on a 2 week vacation abroad, you'll be fine with the basics.

Just to be clear - I personally prefer the traditional method of teaching. Although I am self-teaching, I spend most of my time learning how to sight-read. But at the same time, I recognize that there is a need for what Pianitist is providing, and there's nothing wrong with that. [/b]
Well, to answer your question, my students are able to play a song after the first lesson. Your analogy about traditional piano being akin to teaching grammer first, is erroneous. I do not teach my beginner students scales until after a few months of lessons. I teach them reading using pre-notation method books so that they can play songs without having to be able to read much at all. This is where I think Chris was having difficulty too.

No one has yet defined what 'traditional piano lessons' encompass, and so assumptions are made that it's all boring drills and scales. This is simply not the case. Piano pedagogy has come a long way in the past 20 years or so, so those that perhaps had bad experiences as children, or knew someone who did should see what is being done in many piano studios these days. I know this is kind of off topic, but I felt it necessary to say. And I'm not unlike the other teachers in my organization. Most piano teachers I know are eager to learn new ways of teaching and keeping their students and parents satisfied.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#964376 - 11/11/07 07:55 PM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5967
Loc: Down Under
 Quote:
Originally posted by Eternal:
You can either start with grammar (tenses, memorizing irregular verbs), or you just learn some basic words and common phrases, and start talking right away. [/b]
Or, - daring third alternative - , you can do both. I've done a bit of language study in my time, and the most effective teaching is not either/or. This is back to the "boring scales and metronome" argument. It's the simplistic characterising of methods of teaching which is generating the heat in this thread.
I see the point you are trying to make, but I think it's more clear than accurate.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#964377 - 11/11/07 08:12 PM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
Eternal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 1285
Loc: Posts: 80,372
 Quote:
Originally posted by currawong:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Eternal:
You can either start with grammar (tenses, memorizing irregular verbs), or you just learn some basic words and common phrases, and start talking right away. [/b]
Or, - daring third alternative - , you can do both. I've done a bit of language study in my time, and the most effective teaching is not either/or. This is back to the "boring scales and metronome" argument. It's the simplistic characterising of methods of teaching which is generating the heat in this thread.
I see the point you are trying to make, but I think it's more clear than accurate. [/b]
I've learned English using the "grammar" approach. If you asked me to speak to a native English speaker after my first year of study, I don't know if I could put a sentence together (that being despite the fact that I knew my tenses, irregular verbs, and sentence structures by heart). In the long run - that approach paid off, because I was able to catch up with my "casual" conversation skills, while I already had a sound background in grammar.

I'll say it again - I don't see a problem with people not wanting to go through the rigorous study. If all they want, is to play a few tunes here and there, why look down at someone, who's willing to teach them?

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#964378 - 11/11/07 08:28 PM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
vanityx3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/17/06
Posts: 269
I have no problem with pianitus approach, but his price a little. but thats his choice to make.

For one thing I think most people who are against pianitus is, maybe, it is possible, that he will teach them bad piano habits and technique. But I don't think anyone that wants to become a concert pianist is going to come to Pianitus for lessons.

I think most people who want to possibly become concert pianists one day already know Pianitus can't teach them the technique for that, and I'm sure they would go to good teacher like John and Chris and others.

I think most of Pianitus clients only want to play piano for enjoyment and nothing else. So what, if those people aren't going to have impeccable technique or have a higher chance of hurting themselves. I don't think they'll really have the skill to play anything where you really risk hurting yourself. They're only playing for enjoyment.


I'm sure that the pieces they will be able to play aren't of enough technique to injure anyone anyways. I'm sure Pianitus isn't teaching anyone to play a Chopin Etude or Mephitzo Waltz.
_________________________
well I'm 20 years old, and I'm teaching myself piano.

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#964379 - 11/11/07 08:35 PM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
Pianitis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/09/07
Posts: 66
Loc: South Carolina
 Quote:
Originally posted by Chris H.:
“So if I wanted t go to Ray Charles or Erroll Garner or Blake, Wonder...and the rest of accomplished successful keyboard player for "lessons" to play like they do I would have to consider them unqualified and myself "damaged"? They can't see if my body is rigid and my wrists "fluid".........Yikes.”[/b]

Who said that any such pianists would take students? I am quite sure that they would not pretend that after a few lessons you could play ‘like they do’.
they may not. the point is they are not wrong if they did. YOu might be surprised at how many students of their music they did have.
[QUOTE]On what do you base this assumption?
2. Your posts and attitude reflects my observation. Especially as focus seems to be on the financial aspect.
 Quote:
Now you compare yourself to the likes of Erroll Garner. Earlier you admitted that you were not very good. Make your mind up. None of this has anything to do with whether or not you play from notation or by ear. It’s about you charging money to teach something which you cannot do.
3. Ray Charles (gasp) was not a great pianist. I can play anything Ray played. Errol Garner has a chunky style not particularly complicated. Yes I can play those people. If I can play it Its not really good to me. I cannot play Kieth Emerson. Thats Good to me. I don't consider myself a good pianist because I can play Ray Charles' music.LOL
I'm more then sure you don't believe Ray or Erroll are particularly good players either...Oh yeah its about the money really? Thats what Im getting from you. Its about the money.
 Quote:
You make it sound so simple. It’s a wonder that anyone needs any form of tuition.
4.It can be simple. You make it hard. To play the classics its hard. To play pop is not so much. I was a very lazy student. I needed simple and got it, I have been playing for 35 years, BTW Not the same tune over and over again, I can play enough.
 Quote:
I offer them the choice and can help them either way. Can you?
5. Yes I do offer them a choice. They can learn the way I teach them or they can seek out the likes of you. I have a list of traditional teachers I will give them.


 Quote:
You clearly have no idea what constitutes a ‘good’ teacher. Would you care to define the ‘traditional’ teacher? Still, nobody has come up with a satisfactory, unbiased description.
6. A good teacher is one that can be learned from. Period. The traditional teacher uses traditional methods and books. Alfred's,Bastien,Faber and Faber,Clark,Thompson,Suzuki,Hal Leonard. We have em all. They speak in terms of books. They talk more then the student plays in many cases. (at least this is what I hear from some of their students)They teach using tried and tested methods.
I don't charge more because I found out what the going rate is and used that figure. The rest is enjoyment. For three hours twice a week I get to help people make music. Without judgment on what music is. Without history lessons, without critique of minutiae. Just playing and and having fun. Piano lessons should never be a chore to the teacher or student. IF they don't want to practice it's ok. We will review.


You don't like it but people want EASY. I can make it easy. I can teach a guitar player three simple chords in ten minutes and he or she will be able to play hundreds of popular songs and sing along. I guess thats bad.

Welcome to today.

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#964380 - 11/11/07 08:53 PM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
Theowne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 1099
Loc: Toronto, Canada
I'm not sure why Pianitis posted this thread if he's going to ignore half the people who respond to it. But oh well....

I'm mystified as to why people are praising his posts, more and more he speaks in the same condescending manner which he chided the other teachers for. Perhaps I would be more sympathetic if this were not the case....

 Quote:
I can teach a guitar player three simple chords in ten minutes and he or she will be able to play hundreds of popular songs and sing along.
Is this really something no one else could provide?

If I were to meet that same player I would tell him he could learn the same three chords by quickly searching up on the internet, or buying a $5.00 beginner's guitar tutorial video. He need not spend that much money...Alternatively, I could tell him to spend his money instead (the same amount you charge for) on one of the many non-classical-focused-but-fully-trained instructors (who are plentiful, not rare like this thread would indicate) out there and not only learn the same thing, but also instead have a teacher who has broader experience and knowledge on teaching and learning the instrument, but charge the same or less.

I don't know why all this discussion is here, centered on the premise that there is only one, boring, repetitive method of teaching out there. I thought the Piano Teacher's would know better than to carry on an argument based on an incorrect premise...
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/Theowne- Piano Videos (Ravel, Debussy, etc) & Original Compositions
音楽は楽しいですね。。。

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#964381 - 11/11/07 09:03 PM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
vanityx3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/17/06
Posts: 269
About guitar I will say this as I've played for about 9 years. I am self-taught at guitar, which it did take me about 6 months to get good enough to play something I enjoyed hearing. One day I would love to get lessons for classical guitar style, after playing guitar for 9 years, I can understand all the ways it could only help me inprove my technique.

But guitar is a much much much easier instrument to learn to teach yourself on. Any analogy of guitar to piano isn't very good.

I have been teaching myself piano for about a year now,I dont have the money for lessons, and piano is much harder.

I agree with Theown about the price issue, but I guess if he has people that keep coming back for his instruction, they must enjoy what they are learning. So it's his choice in the end.
_________________________
well I'm 20 years old, and I'm teaching myself piano.

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#964382 - 11/11/07 09:59 PM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
Pianitis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/09/07
Posts: 66
Loc: South Carolina
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Newbie:


Pianitis..what your merely doing is providing inspiration to play the piano ..which to many people seem daunting and moumental..thats why I'm glad there are programs such as Piano Guy..Piano Magic and the like..without the inspiration to play..the piano becomes just another piece of furniture gathering dust..I've played Jazz guitar for 40yrs..and piano for 4yrs ..I would give any
piano student the benefit of my piano knowelege
I play chord piano..peronally I would only teach teens and adults..no kids! Bob Newbie [/b]
Exactly. To a schooled and skilled Classical pianist. I cannot play at all. Most players they hear cannot play.

To Joe six-pack I can play like anyone. You give people a crumb and they will give you credit for a meal. I have to tell them I really DON'T play and am not schooled. Thats how the conversation gets started. The identify with me and realize if they could play "as good" as I do they will be satisfied. Well I can teach them how to do that. The rest is up to them.

I provide the tools and the wood. They build the house. Albeit not the Mansion of a traditionally trained pianist. Some people believe it or not would not want to live in a mansion. As one gets older that is more true. Thats how I present it to them. I'll take a piece of sheet music and play down the chords singing the melody.

Thats not hard to teach someone to do. If they want to play the melody they can. The catch is THEY MUST ALREADY KNOW THE SONG. But thats not a problem because people naturally want to play what they KNOW.

I never played a song I did not know. I have written and recorded tunes though. I play all the parts, do all the string arrangements. By ear.

Here is one of many songs I wrote and recorded right here at home..I'm not much of a singer or player but Joe and Joan Sixpack likes this stuff.

http://www.4shared.com/dir/4544986/ec16ba06/sharing.html

Its an example of all I wanted do and what I would love to teach others to do ultimately.

I am going to post this in the Adult Beginner forum at my own peril LOL.

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#964383 - 11/11/07 10:11 PM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
Pianitis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/09/07
Posts: 66
Loc: South Carolina
 Quote:

But guitar is a much much much easier instrument to learn to teach yourself on. Any analogy of guitar to piano isn't very good.

Not for me it isn't. There are so many places on the fret board to play a note on. There does not seem to be any logic or reason like a piano has( 12 keys then repeat)on the fret board.

Guitar is played and learned by using visual "patterns" on the fretboard. I can "see" and understand a piano keyboard. For the life of me the guitar's fretboard makes no sense. I could never play more than rhythm using memorized chords. Trying to construct an unknown on the fly is impossible for me on the guitar and easy on the piano.

That said I believe the guitar is the easiest instrument to "pick up and play" But the hardest to master and the most expressive of all instruments.

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#964384 - 11/11/07 10:26 PM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
Musictuary Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 169
Loc: Aurora, Illinois, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Morodiene:
Well, to answer your question, my students are able to play a song after the first lesson. Your analogy about traditional piano being akin to teaching grammer first, is erroneous. I do not teach my beginner students scales until after a few months of lessons. I teach them reading using pre-notation method books so that they can play songs without having to be able to read much at all. This is where I think Chris was having difficulty too.

No one has yet defined what 'traditional piano lessons' encompass, and so assumptions are made that it's all boring drills and scales. This is simply not the case. Piano pedagogy has come a long way in the past 20 years or so, so those that perhaps had bad experiences as children, or knew someone who did should see what is being done in many piano studios these days. I know this is kind of off topic, but I felt it necessary to say. And I'm not unlike the other teachers in my organization. Most piano teachers I know are eager to learn new ways of teaching and keeping their students and parents satisfied. [/b]
I'm glad that you have enlightened us about the current state of piano pedagogy. It wasn't that the second piano teacher I had as a child was a bad teacher, she just had issues teaching children. In hindsight I don't think she wanted to teach at that point in her life. (She was a retired high school music teacher.) I think she was teaching to make ends meet. Unfortunately her frustrations were reflected in her teaching and I for one felt her fury and as a result quitted lessons for 30 years.

It seems that "traditional" piano teachers today have to do a better job communicating what they can offer prospective students. It's good that "traditional" teachers are offering a more well-rounded curriculum compared to 30 years ago. Unfortunately not many parents and prospective adult students are aware of these improvements in piano pedagogy that have occurred and are basing their decisions on selecting a teacher on the far too common negative experiences of the piano quitters of yesteryear. Until prospective students realize that they can get the same skills from a "traditional" teacher that they seek to get from Pianitis and/or from the numerous play by ear piano methods there will always be room for Pianitis and other play by ear piano methods.

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#964385 - 11/11/07 10:37 PM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
vanityx3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/17/06
Posts: 269
id agree with you guitar is the easiest to play, besides singing of course.

i'd say piano and guitar are both expressive in different ways. You can bend notes on a acoustic piano, but a guitar can't play triple forte.

Violin is quite expressive also, proabably more than guitar. From what I've heard violin is the most difficult to master as well, piano is up there too. (When I say master though, I'm meaning concert level; not just playing well level.)

Guitar is easier because of it's tuning, which lends itself to patterns that other string instruments don't have; violin players, banjo player they all think of what they're doing differenly form a guitar player. A guitar is tuned in 3 perfect fourths than a major third than another perfect fourth; EADGBE. This lends itself to being able to play any major scale with one patter, a minor scale with another pattern.

I can see and understand what is going on with a piano too, but the scales aren't grouped into patterns like guitar. I like both piano and guitar, they just are different instruments that you can't really make good comparisions with. You can make a lot of contrasts though.

Improvising a lead part for a song is just as easy on guitar as it is on piano. It just helps if you have a backing track, just as it does for piano, all you have to do is stay in key.
_________________________
well I'm 20 years old, and I'm teaching myself piano.

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#964386 - 11/12/07 01:52 AM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Easy come - easy go!

All those conned wannabes buying Clavinovas aren’t told by pianitis that the costly package is "snake-oil" ... an electronic gadget of no
lasting musical value ... the damage to the manufacturers name comes with the buyer’s realisation that the dreamy purchase was a
self-inflicted hoax.

All those fancy keyboards eventually move from an entertainment setting of individual "show-off" prominence to end up in a distant
cupboard ... as the dull plateau of "no progress" stings defeat.

There’s a sucker born every minute!

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#964387 - 11/12/07 02:19 AM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
Pianitis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/09/07
Posts: 66
Loc: South Carolina
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
Easy come - easy go!

All those conned wannabes buying Clavinovas aren’t told by pianitis that the costly package is "snake-oil" ... an electronic gadget of no
lasting musical value ... the damage to the manufacturers name comes with the buyer’s realisation that the dreamy purchase was a
self-inflicted hoax.

All those fancy keyboards eventually move from an entertainment setting of individual "show-off" prominence to end up in a distant
cupboard ... as the dull plateau of "no progress" stings defeat.

There’s a sucker born every minute! [/b]
Wow. Someone really hates the Digital World. I can tell you I have played digital keyboards for 30 Plus years and only recently bought a Grand Acoustic. I did not find the Digitals limiting at all. In fact quite the reverse. I could create entire recordings rather then just another Acoustic version of Fur Elise.

Progress is individual regardless of whether they play a Steinway or Casio. Neither can create music by themself.

More digitals are being sold then Acoustics. We sell more Disclaviars and players then Acoustic Grands. Far more CVPS then Acoustic Uprights. Welcome to the future.It's a different world. CVP Clavinovas allow the masses to play or at least believe they can, And thats all that matters.

BTW There are plenty of Acoustic pianos in homes gathering dust and performing photo duty as well.
I know we take them in on trade.......for Clavinovas. A church recently traded a 19 year old 5'8" Baldwin foe a CVP309 Go figure.

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#964388 - 11/12/07 03:21 AM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
I hope you digital lovers realize that the digital world is only a copy of the real one. If the masses are happy to be bought off (and they are) with cheap digital copies of the world (whether phones, TV, recordings, photographs, pianos) then sadly, that's up to them. All the more space for us in the real world!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#964389 - 11/12/07 04:13 AM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2919
Loc: UK.
OK, I take it all back. Looks like I got you all wrong. If you can play anything Ray Charles or Errol Garner played then you were just being modest when you said….

”Once in a while I noodle on the CVPs and people will come up and say "I wish I could do that" Now I'm usually playing a loose melody over Cma7 Dm7 Em7 and back. Very simple. But sound complete when the Clav is playing a great arrangement behind my simple changes.”[/b]

I am sure that great Jazz pianists would be delighted to hear that this is all they do.

In the original post you told us….

“I wanted to play for my own benefit, not to be an accomplished pianist but just a player. I ended up in a few bands and especially found my love in writing and recording my music. I finally found a teacher who taught me how to teach my self. I took lessons for 6 months and learned as much as I could to do what I wanted to do. If it were not for that teacher I would not have stayed with it for the past 4 decades. Im am still not acomplished by any stretch but I am a player.”[/b]

“I AM NOT ACCOMPLISHED BY ANY STRETCH”[/b]

This is where I have a problem. I believe that if you are going to charge top rates (more than I charge by the way) for piano tuition then you should be ‘accomplished’, regardless of the style of music or the methods you teach. Whatever line of work you are in you should be ‘accomplished’ before you start taking peoples money for your services.

You criticize me because I seem to think it is just about money. What do you do for a living exactly? Yes, you are a salesman.

“I realized there is a huge "market" out there for a "teacher" who can teach someone to teach themselves and only PLAY what they want to play and not deal with endless finger excercises and proper form and reading ink dots of someone else's work. “[/b]

You realised there was a ‘market’ and have decided to get in on it.

You have managed to turn this argument into a conflict between what you call ‘traditional’ and ‘non-traditional’ teaching methods. Again, I would say that there is less difference than most people are led to believe. You would like everyone to think that I will teach only very gifted individuals the ‘Classical’ way. Sorry to disappoint but I have just as many students who enjoy jazz, pop and improvisation as those who play Classical. In fact, I can’t think of a single student who plays nothing but the Classics.

This thread has lost the plot. You are right, there is nothing anyone can do to stop any old joe from teaching the piano. As others have said…..

BUYER BEWARE

Welcome to the modern world
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

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#964390 - 11/12/07 09:13 AM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
pevawi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 232
Loc: The Netherlands
Mmm... a thread that takes 5 pages... a must[/b] read ;\)

I take traditional lessons and enjoying it. And I think pianitis delivers just what he promises. Lessons in playing a melody and some chords on a 88 something keyboard. Nothing wrong with. I'm not in on the "injury" problems that it may cause. Most people that play for fun do stop when it hurts. And it isn’t la campanella from liszt they are playing \:D . And I guess one of the most important factors in not injuring is: be relaxed... which is more likely when having fun.

I only found one argument I complete concur with. That is the argument that some people have low expectation for themselves. And are missing a opportunity to become something they didn't expect to accomplish (being reasonable well in sight-reading/playing). That is just too bad and I can understand from a teachers point of view this is frustrating. But I don't believe pianitis can help that.

I’ve a friend that plays any tune he knows with chords on organ with ease and can even transpose that to different keys adding several nice ornaments to it. Needles to say I’m a bit jealous of that. But I wouldn’t changes roles with him for no amount of money. So personally I wouldn't take pianitis lessons and I can talk very passionate about taking traditional lessons because I like it so much \:D and wouldn't be satisfied with the limited capabilities of chord-playing.
But I would take cooking lessons from a self teach chef after tasting his food and liking it (paying for it as well!). That lessons will not give me the stature of a chef from a very important restaurant but I can cook a descent meal for friend with it. There is the risk of burning myself to the stove (which is a clavinova kind of stove) but that's all in the game and I know it. And if somebody would argue that piano playing is something from a different level compared to cooking he / she should ask a chef from one of the top-tier restaurants \:D and be prepared to get kicked out of the kitchen \:D
_________________________
Kawai K6

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#964391 - 11/12/07 09:45 AM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12153
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
To address the issue of digital pianos, I encouraged my parents, who recently retired to buy a digital. They still had the old Gulbransen spinet that I learned on (and hated every minute of) as a child. It iwll go to a cousin or someone else in the family, as it was my grandmother's piano. I first told my parents to get a baby grand, but they would have had to eliminate some furniture that they weren't willing to do. So then I recommended getting a digital. I forget which brand they bought, but it has plenty of bells and whistles. So far my Dad has enjoyed tinkering on it (he's an engineer and loves gadgets), but he's tried teaching himself and got frustrated very quickly because his fingers weren't able to play the chords. I let him know that he really need sot be eased into playing, and not thrown in like some of those books that come with the pianos will have you do. I have recommended that both my parents find a teacher who works with adult students that they can see every other week, and I'm sure they will be happy.

Buying the digital piano was the first step for my parents to rekindle their interest in piano, but when it came down to it, the widgets didn't keep them occupied long before they realized they needed real instruction. I think that digital pianos are great for some people, as long as they aren't concerned with it being outdated in a couple of years as all technology is. If they have the space and wish to make an investment, then a good-quality acoustic is the way to go.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#964392 - 11/12/07 10:10 AM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2919
Loc: UK.
Hey pevawi, I'm not an accomplished cook but I do a great beans on toast. I swear it is all you'll ever need. Why don't you come round one evening and I will show you the secret. Cash only please.
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

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#964393 - 11/12/07 10:15 AM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
Pianitis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/09/07
Posts: 66
Loc: South Carolina
 Quote:
Originally posted by Chris H.:
OK, I take it all back. Looks like I got you all wrong. If you can play anything Ray Charles or Errol Garner played then you were just being modest when you said….

”Once in a while I noodle on the CVPs and people will come up and say "I wish I could do that" Now I'm usually playing a loose melody over Cma7 Dm7 Em7 and back. Very simple. But sound complete when the Clav is playing a great arrangement behind my simple changes.”[/b]

:rolleyes: Chris. I will always keep it simple when in the store. Simplicity sells. If I were to play anything that even looked complicated I would be defeating the purpose regarding sales. The customer needs to say to themselves there is a "possibility" they can do it. Yes I can play Ray Charles (who can't) But I don't need to show them that. I will in the lessons though. I'll show them how I learned NY State of Mind using Chords charts only. I'm not going to play THAT in the store either.Ray Charles could not read a note.I suppose by your standards he was not accomplished and accomplished nothing.


I am sure that great Jazz pianists would be delighted to hear that this is all they do.

In the original post you told us….

“I wanted to play for my own benefit, not to be an accomplished pianist but just a player. I ended up in a few bands and especially found my love in writing and recording my music. I finally found a teacher who taught me how to teach my self. I took lessons for 6 months and learned as much as I could to do what I wanted to do. If it were not for that teacher I would not have stayed with it for the past 4 decades. Im am still not acomplished by any stretch but I am a player.”[/b]

“I AM NOT ACCOMPLISHED BY ANY STRETCH”[/b]

:rolleyes: I do not consider myself accomplished. Neither do many great pianists I know who make their living playing for shows and in Bars consider themselves accomplished. Most do something well but are not accomplished in all aspects of the instrument, Nice to know you are.You should be worth far more then $25 a lesson due to your "extensive training and accomplishment",. Why can't you get it? You can't blame that on me.


This is where I have a problem. I believe that if you are going to charge top rates (more than I charge by the way) for piano tuition then you should be ‘accomplished’, regardless of the style of music or the methods you teach. Whatever line of work you are in you should be ‘accomplished’ before you start taking peoples money for your services.

:rolleyes: Again Its all about the money. I cannot debate finances with you. Thats personal and what the market will bear. I am not hiding anything. They want to know what I know thats the fee. They want to know more they can find another teacher who charges less. To their ears I am accomplished. They want "such accomplishment" without all the tedium. It's worth it to them. Accomplishment is a relative and subjective term especially as applied to the ARTs. I do not believe Eric Clapton is nearly as accomplished as Stevie Ray Vaughn. Is Dave Brubeck as accomplished as Billy Joel?


You criticize me because I seem to think it is just about money. What do you do for a living exactly? Yes, you are a salesman.
:rolleyes: In fact I work part time. Never sold anything for a living in my life. Yet I still get paid. Go figure.

“I realized there is a huge "market" out there for a "teacher" who can teach someone to teach themselves and only PLAY what they want to play and not deal with endless finger excercises and proper form and reading ink dots of someone else's work. “[/b]

You realised there was a ‘market’ and have decided to get in on it.

:rolleyes: A Abosolutely! Just like my boss,Quenten Tarantino,Dave Thomas, Bill Gates,Steve Jobs,Richard Branson and a whole host of lesser known others who never had the "proper education"

You have managed to turn this argument into a conflict between what you call ‘traditional’ and ‘non-traditional’ teaching methods. Again, I would say that there is less difference than most people are led to believe. You would like everyone to think that I will teach only very gifted individuals the ‘Classical’ way. Sorry to disappoint but I have just as many students who enjoy jazz, pop and improvisation as those who play Classical. In fact, I can’t think of a single student who plays nothing but the Classics.

This thread has lost the plot. You are right, there is nothing anyone can do to stop any old joe from teaching the piano. As others have said…..
:rolleyes: Apparently there is a H U G E difference otherwise this thread would not be 5 pages long. Ya Think?


BUYER BEWARE

Welcome to the modern world [/b]
My buyers are aware. As are Scott Houston's,and other who sell How to Play the Piano in a Week books.

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#964394 - 11/12/07 12:35 PM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Chris H.:
This is where I have a problem. I believe that if you are going to charge top rates (more than I charge by the way) for piano tuition then you should be ‘accomplished’, regardless of the style of music or the methods you teach. Whatever line of work you are in you should be ‘accomplished’ before you start taking peoples money for your services.
[/b]
I think I detect a touch of jealousy here. This focus on the fact that people are willing to pay $25 for what Pianitis offers them is misguided. Nobody is being forced to pay $25. They pay it because they feel they are getting something that, to them, is worth $25 for a half hour. That should be the end of the story. It's their money not yours and they are free to spend it on twinkies or on filet mignon if they so desire. They get exactly what is promised to them and they leave happy. As Pianitis stated, $25 is the going rate at the store where he works. Indeed we should be glad that he’s not charging, say $10. If he charged a lower fee than the “regular” piano teachers he would be undercutting them and there’s a chance that many a cash-strapped beginner would opt for his course rather than the more expensive "traditional lessons". Now, we wouldn’t want that, would we?
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

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#964395 - 11/12/07 12:47 PM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Nobody is being forced to pay $25.
No, but they don't know any better. In other words they're being exploited (I believe it's called capitalism).
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#964396 - 11/12/07 12:52 PM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
pevawi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 232
Loc: The Netherlands
 Quote:
Originally posted by Chris H.:
Hey pevawi, I'm not an accomplished cook but I do a great beans on toast. I swear it is all you'll ever need. Why don't you come round one evening and I will show you the secret. Cash only please. [/b]
Your on next time I'm in the UK! \:D
_________________________
Kawai K6

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#964397 - 11/12/07 12:54 PM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
 Quote:
Nobody is being forced to pay $25.
In other words they're being exploited (I believe it's called capitalism). [/b]
Indeed, and even China is beginning to like the taste of it.
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

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#964398 - 11/12/07 01:10 PM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
vanityx3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/17/06
Posts: 269
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzyprof:
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
 Quote:
Nobody is being forced to pay $25.
In other words they're being exploited (I believe it's called capitalism). [/b]
Indeed, and even China is beginning to like the taste of it. [/b]
But don't you think china is still going to exploit millions of it's on people, livin in the country. China is a weird case I think, They want to become a capitalist society, but I don't think they are going to re-nig on their psuedo-classless society. In turn exploiting millions of farmers and others so some big shots in the city can make more money.
_________________________
well I'm 20 years old, and I'm teaching myself piano.

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#964399 - 11/12/07 01:35 PM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
jazzyclassical Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 154
Loc: California
Well, I'm chiming in to this thread a little bit late. But here's my opinion.

Pianitis: For one, half of what I teach is what you teach as well. The other half is how to sightread notation and classical technique, since I was classically trained. So I don't think what you are doing is bad, but perhaps only half of the equation.
I also like digital and acoustic. I have a Kawaii upright that's a solid instrument. And I have a Privia and am saving up to buying a Nord Electro to play organ patches in my band. Woohoo! \:\)

Which brings me to my third point. I'm in a rock band and play chords and probably a lot of the types of things you teach, so I definitely don't have a problem with those techniques. In fact I sort of resented my teachers for a while because they taught me nothing of chords, improv, and composition. I had to figure that out on my own. Which was probably easier for me than most "notes only" people because I have always relied on my ear and have always been able to figure things out, whether it was a commercial jingle or a song I new on the radio. I always would try to figure it out at the piano in addition to my classical lessons. I don't resent my teachers anymore though. They were mediocre because they didn't delve into the theory and structure behind what I was playing. But that's the past and I now I teach my students differently.

It took me a while to finally dive into chords, theory, and playing by ear fully but that's when I started composing and formed a band. Music brings much more joy to me now because I still have my classical which is more of a personal thing. But now I also have some jazz too. I also have my rock band and have soooo much fun playing with other people and letting loose.

Conclusion:
I think that the theory and techniques that you are teaching is very important but only part of the big picture in one's musical life journey. Everybody's different, and everybody has preferences. There are good classical teachers and bad classical teachers, there are good pop or jazz teachers and there are bad ones. I think if you are teaching them solid music theory than it's fine because then they know what they are playing and will be able to eventually teach themselves like you and I did. If people are enjoying themselves and creating good (subjective, I know) music I don't think there is a problem here. Who knows, you make kick start the career of the next Ben Folds, Rufus Wainwright, or Nellie McKay. (Some of my favorites!!)

Add on: I don't mean to say that classical teachers are bad. Just the one I had that taught straight from the method book (Alfred) for way too long and never added anything. I had a great teacher in college, which is where I began to finally learn music. And I took some jazz lessons with another teacher which helped a lot. But like I said, it's a journey. Each teacher I had was just part of the big picture of my musical education.
_________________________
Kawai acoustic piano
Casio PX-350

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#964400 - 11/12/07 02:07 PM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
jazzyclassical Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 154
Loc: California
_________________________
Kawai acoustic piano
Casio PX-350

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#964401 - 11/13/07 02:30 AM Re: Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need...
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington


11:25 PM Monday, November 12

Marathon posting noted on "Piano Teacher's Forum - Self taught piano player teaching non traditional methods due to need..."

I haven't heard a method discussed, have I?

Tomorrow's another day! Over and out!

Betty

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