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Originally posted by Chris H.:
Wow, you turn your back for a minute and another 2 pages appear!
There is a huge leap and assumption in your understanding of what I said. I said I can play Ray Charles. Anyone with mediocre training and a little persistence can without ever breaking open a book. Errol Garner plays in chunks. I did not claim I cam play "anything" the great jazz pianists play". I do not have the technique nor the patience to develop the technique to play "anything" they play. If thats what I wanted to play I would have learned it. By myself.

Again even a larger misunderstanding of my words and a tall leap in paraphrase. Please show me where I said I need to include lessons to close any deal? I ONLY offer "lessons" if they ask AFTER hearing and seeing me play and like I said 100 times I FIRST encourage them to seek traditional training. Many have already gone that route and don't want to. They want quick and easy.

It appears that way becasue of the vitriol many have against non traditional methods and the very fact that it appears many of those here who are well trained with roots in the classics feel and have said I will RUIN and possibly (gasp) INJURE a prospective student for life if God Forbid we don't get piano teaching "certified" and keep the terrible hacks. There has been a lot of talk about money.We all know that relates to snobbish people.As well there are some who imply that it's better to go without the joy of music then learn from someone with no formal training. If thats not snobbish and elitist,I don't know what is
Monica is probably not a teacher and just a lover of music with no axe to grind. "Preferring" they come to you and making light of their alternative choices apparently leads to pain and an early quenching of the grand possibilities one will never receive if they don't come to you. Many have come to the likes of you. It's just not their style to learn in a formal manner in a very structured way. I teach based on the individual not the BOOKS. Some want scales some don't. They just want to learn chords like they learned guitar. I tell them it's easier to learn how to make a chord if they learn the scales, They would rather memorize visual chords. It's their money.
It's not my job to convince them of that. Reading is a separate and distinct skill set which allows one entry to interpretations of everyones work. However requires a lot of time and effort to master to be able to do it well. I know. Although I know the notes on the staffs I cannot look at the bass staff and know the chord. I need the chord written above. So what? Guitar players read tabs to learn a part. Many don't read the notes.

Reading is not the end all to enjoyment of any keyboard. It's an acquired skill that is pretty obvious to anyone that will open doors. I was never much interested in playing others music by the book. I rather play it from listening. I find that more enjoyable. Like digging for treasure. Lots "Oh so THAT'S waht he's playing......Hmmmm".
You can say it all you like. I know 10 people who would disagree. Playing is fun. Learning to read is not, endless scales over the drone click of a metronome is not. Playing simple little chidren's songs is not. It takes quite awhile for piano to become "fun" when taking method lessons. Unless perhaps if you are 7. For those who see the future it's a welcome struggle for awhile. For those who want to play NOW. It's not so much.
Yet again you put words in my mouth. Please if you are going to quote me do not paraphrase. You are not very good at it. Can you students play a melody over a slow progression of Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Dm7 after the SECOND lesson? I think not. Mine can and ENJOY it. How can they do this miraculous thing? Because I tell them they can play anything they want on the white keys over that progression
Their imagination is the limit. While they do this I explaining scales how how keys work.They can play in C for the rest of their life if they choose to. Not my call. They can expand that to different scales and keys. I can help them with that.The point is THAT ARE MAKING THEIR OWN MUSIC form the get go. They see AND HEAR RESULTS immediately. They "sound" like real players. Like me. LOL
Of course you have haven't. You probably dismissed the notion without even knowing it after they spend three minutes with you. I can hear the discussion. "I want to play Billy Joel"

"Uh Hem ..You know it takes years of training to be able to play like Billy Joel. Billy Martin was a classical trained pianist before he became Billy Joel."

I am sure you heard people say they want to play this or that. I am more than sure you told them what they need to do FIRST.

Ker-Ching.

But.... could you even buy your chess lessons from Gary Kasparov for $25 a session?

Nobody said that if you can't take piano lessons from Daniel Barenboim you might as well not bother.

The question is do you pay $25 to learn chess with someone who was maybe semi-pro, played for years at a high standard and has many years teaching experience, or do you pay $25 to learn chess from me? I know which pieces move where but I am by no means an accomplished player. To someone who knows nothing about chess my knowledge might seem impressive. Trust me, it isn't.

There are more then you think like that. Some are even turned away by teachers.....
In the long run one will pay a whole lot more to do what they want to do today. Thats why. You forget I was there. I LOVE music. I love writing,recording, and just "noodling" I never loved it enough to want to do any more then I do today. I learned only what I wanted when I wanted.
Guess what I can play a 4 hour piano bar and actually get paid for it.

Will I become a better painter if I took lessons from Monet......????Or will I just paint like Monet?
Many do. Some don't. Mediocrity is no sin. In fact for many successful musicians it is very very profitable. And for those who's desires are much less intended. Piano is fun again. Not a chore where the rewards come later.

How can you possibly use Chess as a comparison to music on any level in any discourse regarding music!!!?

Many of you classically trained people are stuck in your "the best or bust" paradiam. I would pay for lessons in anything from someone who's skills in that particular arena I admire. ESPECIALLY when it comes to the arts where subjectivity rules the day. Classically trained people seems to have lost that subjectivity and there are far too many "wrongs" and far too little rights for my tastes.

The old Rap ain't music syndrome.....I disdain all Rap Music and what it stands for.. But it is still music and still requires the creative processes of an art form.

There you go, it was right back on page 1!

Forgive me for paraphrasing but that took me ages to find your quote. I assure you, all the things I said that 'you' said are in there somewhere. I just can't really be bothered to wade through it all again.

By the way, learning to read music is not difficult. You should try it. I bet I can teach someone to read music quicker than you can teach them to play by ear.

Would my students play Cmaj7, Dm7 etc. on the 2nd lesson? Absolutely not. That can be quite a stretch, not to mention the need to use fingers 5,4,2,1. Anyone who does not play is welcome to try this. Their arm, wrist and hand will be tighter than a rusty bolt. I can't argue with the fact that any white note will fit. Have you tried the other one? If you play nothing but black notes it sounds great.

The chess post was in repsonse to Monica K. Some other posts slipped inbetween so it didn't make much sense. Sorry.

Ah yes. The words but not the intent. Those lessons are not those I charge for. They are more how to use the Clav lessons. But yes on occasion they want more regarding the music end. Theres where the traditional vs alternative training advantages and disadvantage conversation happens.

I do not sell music lessons from the store to make a sale. I will train free on the Clav. I do not even bring up lessons of any kind when they are buying an acoustic. The Clav is daunting to some. I can and will spend a couple hours teaching them in the store as a value added service after the purchase. I can understand how you connected the dots there though. I apologize.

If they have an issue with the quads I will just have them do the triads instead. Same result if not as "pretty".

To answer your reading question. Yes I have tried it. I found it tedious and frustrating. A learned skill. I would rather "read" a fake book and embellish on my own.

When I said "low cost" I was referring to the total commitment and investment... many (most?) teachers here insist on students enrolling for a semester or even an entire year. Pianitis charges by the lesson (with the first lesson free). The initial cost/investment is thus considerably lower for Pianitis's students, even if he/she charges a comparable or higher hourly rate.

That might explain why you are so biased against reading. Unfortunately, you never had the benefit of someone who could teach you to read music well. Whether you mean to or not, this bias will be passed on to your own students.

Reading music is not the be all and end all. However, unless you are blind there is no reason why you can not give it a try. I know you can achieve a lot without it but I believe the majority of people can achieve more with it. Many years ago it would have been considered elitist to be able to read and write. Thankfully that is not the case now. Why should music literacy be any different?

Monica said: Because as a brand new beginner in something, especially if it's something I'm not sure I'm going to want to stick with, I don't *need* the best teacher in town. In fact, I'd probably feel more comfortable with somebody who wasn't the best person in the world.

It is understood among those who teach piano, know pedagogy (the how and what to teach structured in concepts with all the component parts of learning our instrument) that:

The FIRST teacher is the most important teacher.

It is here you learn to "think" piano solutions, you orient your body and mind carefully to the keyboard, you learn to read notation, count note values, acquire technique, learn theory, become accomplished with any piece of music at the level at which you play by achieving goals. You are learning to respond to the symbols on the music page.

There is a system of learning (just at in school - reading, vocabulary, math, physical impulse with understanding and control. It is like being a well-trained athlete in a specialized sport: thinking in music symbols.

Music literacy is an important goal of a piano teacher. The student acquires confidence, self-esteem, thinking skills related to music. He achieves and accomplishes. We pave paths in brains. We give good experiences toward conquering the instrument of 88 keys, capable of loud and soft sounds, with 10 fingers on a warm, human body, in an engrossed mind.

The blarney about piano teachers is spiteful when of course the common denominator is that piano teachers are already there in understanding, and many students can't or won't follow directions to the pinnacle and do everything they can do to sabotage themselves.

A piano student on the path is going to be able to reach their goals if they stay on the path. It is going to take as long as it takes because each person is able to travel the path at his own speed - whatever that capacity is - but the destination is worthy of such commitment.

Without the pursuit of excellence in music study, lessons can be chaotic and confused or limited to the expectation of the student.

Choose that first (and every other) piano teacher carefully. This is music education and artistry you are wading through. It isn't meant to be the easiest because it is guided observation and self control to be able to "think in music" and also be able to "think in impulses that your physical body produces according to your understanding.

Deliberately acquired skills combined with your natural talents. If you are getting no written information from your teacher - written instructions, a printed hand out, notes written on the music page, an assignment notebook with written details - you are not being instructed.

Could it be that you are being led by the "Pied Piper" and locked into "Simon Says" games? Are you developing visual, aural, tactile skills - or it there mainly "imitation" going on?

I don't know the answer in this situation, for sure, but everything I've noticed so far is that this appeals to certain people. "Joe and Joan Six Pack", for instance. The cost is equal to long term music teachers and that was established as being the "going rate" and high enough to keep out the "riff raff".

My final thought here is that this person does not respect others, neither teachers (lots of criticism)nor clients. He also does not respect the study of music.

If he has his own "method", it should be printed as a blueprint for what he is going to accomplish with his students.


Betty

originally posted by Pianitis:

But you are at least reading A LITTLE. I believe that the discussion was about not learning to read AT ALL.

And even blind musicians can read BRAILLE scores! The head of the theory department at my conservatory was blind, and he had tons of braille scores. He was an excellent musician in every way (playing by "ear" included).

I don't believe there is enough bandwidth in which to list why music literacy is not nearly as important as reading and writing language....

I don't put music on that high a pedestal. Reading music is great for those who wan a career playing a Broadway or otherwise show perhaps in Branson MO. Even then the charts are not written in Symphonic form. It's also nice to know if you want to read someone's written interpretation of a pop song in a song book. Or if one enjoys the classical music. But it certainly is not necessary to enjoy playing the piano for some.

And here is where a lot of students have their worst memories and quit. They come in with right brains all ready to go and its the left brain that is doing all the work. The people I seem to appeal to have no desire to go for years of musical training. I do not understand why that is such a wayward concept to those who did? They just want to play for fun, not make it a long multi year multi teacher "study in music." They don't want to CRAWL. They want to walk, albeit with a cane and a crutch or two. But they want to walk. Some will be satisfied with that. I was. I walk everywhere "I want to go" without crutches. I also put the crutches back on when I want to go somewhere I have never been.
System and methodology. Ugly words when it comes to the arts for a few. Some want to win a few battles on the 88s. Not conquer the whole war.
Therein lies the problem. Some students are not inclined to structured learning in the musical arena. You would have them quit rather then learn "correctly" lest there be more of me mucking up things. Yet should they put it aside and move on to chess? I yell a resounding NO!!!I am thankful I did not quit. There are other ways to express yourself musically. Perhaps not as deep or with extreme musical literacy. But enjoyable and creative nevertheless.

Is it the teacher's job to instill those goals?
I say it's the students job to instruct the teacher where they want to go and the teacher gets paid to take them there. WHEREVER IT IS. Different people different lessons. The destination may not be as far as one who is looking and budgeting on long term income from a student or students suggests.


People are truly motivated by there own measure of excellence not someone else's.
As it should be.

I add decide what you want to learn and find a teacher who will teach you exactly that. IF you want to play the classics find a classical teacher, If you want to play only pop. Find one who will teach you only pop. If you want to play by ear. Find one who learned that way you respect.
Nothing says you cannot switch but to become saddled with a teacher who teaches the same method to every individual is to become handcuffed if the method is not applicable to ones own learning processes and sensibilities.
I do not give any written information. I make them write everything. Scale formulas, Chord formulas, the staff, the notes, .....Everything I say has to be written down by them in their writing. IF they write it they OWN it and it becomes theirs, not mine. Their assignment, not mine. They come with BLANK lined paper and staff paper and leave with a book THEY wrote. Music they wrote in a way they can understand. I make it as painless as possible.
Music does not have be difficult unless you want to play difficult pieces. Thats the beauty of music and Art. You can paint some abstract strokes on blank canvas in ten minutes and people will pay extreme amounts for it and call it art. Or you can paint photographic looking scenes and sell them to calendar makers for beans. Art makes no sense sometimes.

the Pied Piper DID rid the city of the rats.After all. He was not paid.

BTW Imitation is the root of all music. Nothing is truly original anymore. In fact reading music is the ultimate IMITATION..YA think?

There is no answer. Only acceptance. And BTW "Riff Raff" is in the eye of the beholder as was my intent when I first brought up the term. In facvt I would guess I am musical "Riff Raff" to a few here. Ya think?
I have a feeling this will not be your final thought......The only thing you are indeed correct about is I do not respect traditional methods of music study. I don't even like using the word "study" as it applies to music. "Study" is a not an enabling term to many people. My purpose is to enable not alienate.


I knew the above would not be your last thought!!!

Sorry no blueprint. People are different. Musical tastes are different. Methods do not apply to all.
I will accomplish nothing. The students will accomplish what they come for...... if they want to.

Wow - what a thread!

I don't think Pianitis is hurting anyone - he's clear about his aims and limits. I expect there are a group of people who for whatever reason would enjoy learning to play a keyboard with him.

However, I do think there are many advantages to chosing to have lessons with a teacher with broader experience. While I agree with Pianitis that musical literacy may not be as important as reading, the process of skill development is very similar (I am an adult beginner, former reading teacher and mom of 3).

The "best" teachers in my opinion can move from method to method and customize the experience for the learning stage and style of their students. I think this holds whether the "base" of the method is a more "traditional" one like many teachers here use, a Suzuki approach, or a "play by ear" approach.

A piano teacher who can move between styles and methods to meet the goals of his/her students is one who has the skills to avoid the "stuck" feeling so common in people learning a complex skill. Personally, I would no more want a piano teacher who could only teach one way than I would a reading teacher who could only teach phonics or whole language.

For better or worse, students to tend to get attached to their teachers and it is nice when you have chosen a teacher with enough skill to "go the distance" with you - even if at the beginning you have no idea where your musical destination will be or how long it will take.

I suspect the best teachers - whatever their base method - do borrow heavily from all methods and are worth far more than they are paid.

*twitch* There is no such thing as right brain and left brain. I wish we could just get rid of this stupid model so that we couldn't use it as an excuse.

Thanks Betty, for answering Monica. Ask any good teacher and they will tell you the first teacher must be the best - in fact ask any leading sports person. But as the opinions of the highly experienced and knowledgable seem to count little with one side of this debate, what can we do? Would you like references?

Cathy I still can't get my head round why someone would wish to be mediocre at any endeavour. It goes smack against any cultures I know of.

Mmm.. do I get the urge to tell you all: GET A JOB.. but then again.. you already have one and that's what this discussion is all about...

And it's really a principal point you can tell from the lengthy posts. I'd like to add a positive point that most people have keep their cool in this (Monica did already praise Pianitis for this). But I think you should consider to: "agree to disagree" because neither side will give in on this and I think there is no real winner here as this is not a "black/white" but more a grey area.

Or if you like the daily workout behind the keyboard by all means go ahead and try to give the Chopin thread from lovinchopintomuch on the ABF forum a good scare number wise

I believe it is comments like this that make the case for all the negative stereotypes of "classical" piano teachers. What arrogance! I have yet to be convinced that Pianitis' lack of rigidity with respect to musical pedagogy doesn't imply a greater respect for the study of music in general than the limiting of musical education to one particular view that is currently fashionable among some classicaly-trained North Americans.

I have followed this thread with great interest since I teach for living (with no formal training), have had music instruction in several instruments, while also having had myself as a teacher.

I'm old enough have seen the effects of various "systems" of instruction championed by professional "educators" --anyone seen the devastation wrought on children's literacy by the "whole language" zealots? I have.

I have had good music teachers and bad. Many of the bad ones had been trained in music and musical pedagogy. They couldn't teach a bird to chirp.

I have had self-taught musicians teach me more in ten minutes than I learned in six months with the "highly trained" type.

My youngest son is in piano. I wouldn't let him learn from Pianitis because I want him to learn a broad musical curriculum from a trained teacher with years of experience, particularly with experience teaching children.

For myself, been there, done that. I have a base from which I can teach myself to read better. If I want more theory I can teach myself that. If i wanted to play the classics, I'd probably be able to advance substantially beyond my present level without a teacher.

If I wanted to advance beyond the intermediate level, I would get a teacher.

Currently, if a walked into a music store and saw somwone noodling away in a way that impressed me, I'd ask a few questions. If the person had some understanding of what they were doing and it seemed to me that their system, no matter how idiosyncratic or unorthodox, was generative, rather than just something that had to be imitated with no rules for pattern creation, then I'd consider dropping $25 down to find out more, sure.