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You are correct it was Chris I was confusing with Mr. Brooks. They think so much alike, interchanging them is not a huge error.

Give the chappie a break chaps ... he’s selling Clavinovas which provide the rich sound of any orchestral instrument (in any key) at the touch of a button ... very alluring.

It is total rot to suggest that he is undermining the proper teaching of the piano ... his gadget makes it just that much easier to get started ... by pressing a beat button for a fixed accompaniment ... the LH role is taken out of the initial playing effort ... all the beginner needs to add is the simple improvisation of a single-note RH melody ... any dope can do this .

Once there is some sort of RH co-ordination ... it would seem logical that the "sucker" would like to learn about using two hands ... thus the later chord tuition at $25.00 a throw.

But the bottom line is that pianitis has got unlikely customers interested in the keyboard ... however once the marvel of the gadget buttons has worn off ... and the boring regularity of the machine beat starts imprisoning the "sucker" ... with no flavourful progress ... the penny must eventually drop ... that sight-reading mastery is the only path to quality keyboard sound.

Pianitis makes a sale and takes 4 lessons ($100.00) to make suckers briefly happy at the keyboard ... on the other hand piano teachers take 3 grinding years of weekly lessons (bags of theory and critical instruction) ... but never pass on ultimate mastery of sight-reading ... and in this shortfall kill off the enthusiasm of most pupils ... who never again want to be associated with the actual playing of the piano .

Who does most damage? ... sorry chaps ... stirring!!

Well there's some bias here so it's not really completely honest...

Let me tell you that before I took lessons I was also of the impression that scales and metronomes were all boring things that I'd rather avoid. And when I did start taking lessons, I hated having to use them. But boy, I'm glad that I did because it feels so great to be able to play the way I can now, which is definitely in part due to practicing my technical scales, arpeggios, and playing with the metronome, etc.

An engineer will most likely NOT explain to a car purchaser about the law of inertia and why they must wear seat belts, they just tell them they have to do it for safety. A piano teacher might not be popular when first suggesting the use of scales and metronomes (mine certainly wasn't with me!) but they usually know what they are doing. A few bad apples does not poison the entire orchard, or whatever that saying is.

There's this idea out there that classical piano teachers are mean men/women who bark out orders and hit you if you make a mistake. There's an idea that classical music and atmosphere itself must be strict and harsh - in fact even if this thread John, I think, reinforces that idea by saying something like "If that mild post was offensive than I don't know how you'll handle classical criticism". This is ONE side of the coin. On the other side are my school music teacher and piano teacher, who are completely the opposite. Fun, approachable, down-to-earth, and genuinely interested in seeing you succeed. I've never been yelled at, never been scolded, and I've certainly never experienced any of the kind of harsh criticism that poster seems to indicate. What I have gotten is very helpful constructive criticism, feedback, and instructions on how to improve. And you also get a reliable instructor who is very educated in a wide array of areas related to piano and your study, having dedicated quite a bit of their life learning it, which is a very valuable resource that I would gladly spend money for.

The only thing I don't like about your idea is that most of everything you've described I can already ask my piano teacher for, because she is very experienced and fully trained and is sufficiently knowledgeable enough to help my with sight-reading, playing by ear, improvisation, anything. Since she has a classical grounding she already knows about chords and the role of certain chord progressions in scales, and can easily apply that to modern music. In fact this situation did occur when I had to accompany my choir but had no sheet music. We both listened to the piece, which is a modern pop arrangement, and came up with a suitable accompaniment. You already learn these things taking the traditional route, I certainly had to learn all of them when taking my theory tests.

Personally, I'm not qualified but I do kind of teach to my neighbor's kid but that's because they can't afford to pay $100 a month and he's just a beginner, so I volunteered to teach him for free since he really likes the piano, until they can get him an experienced teacher. Basically I just repeat what I learned when I started to him. But I'm not going to charge him like my teacher charges me because it's just not the same.

It seems like you're charging roughly the same as what my teacher would charge but providing essentially just a piece of what she could provide. Would you be telling your potential customers this fact?

I suppose this argument boils down to how much of an idealist you are.

"Pianist" would be more culpable as a teacher of children up to the age of about 15, and less culpable beyond that. It really is a shame to put somebody on the wrong course, however well-defined the course may be, when that student is young and capable of so much more.

My sincere advice to Pianist is to save up his pennies and take some piano lessons. It's very rewarding.

Monica, to answer your earlier question, it's a mix of both. I'm upset at the price he's charging and at the fact that as a teacher he is not leaps and bounds ahead of what his student can do. If his student can do the same thing as he can in 4 students, and they want further study, what then?

I don't have a problem with someone coming to me and saying, "Can you teach me how to read lead/improvise/understand a song?" That I can do. In the process of doing that I can teach theory, correct fingerings for chords and their inversions, throw scales in, many others. Not once do we have to touch classical music in any way. If that's what the student wants, there won't be any Bach, Mozart, or Beethoven (unless that dratted Fur Elise piece comes up).

I take on all sorts of students. My youngest is four and my eldest has been in her late fifties to sixties. And the most pressing issue with all students is time management and practice, not fun or lack of it. I take on students who have self-taught and I never tell them they've wasted their time. My hope is that there are other teachers who are able to see past their own noses and do the same thing.

But to have Pianitis offer to teach what I can teach, without the depth of study, understanding, or the explanations I can give, without a history of pedagogy and principles to guide the teaching and make it easier, all for more than what I make and with less experience, that really gets me in my graw, so to speak.

P.S.: My first lesson in two years is this Sunday at 10 am. Even piano teachers need teachers.

My problem with pianitis is 'not sufficiently trained in technique to be teaching piano'. If a teacher is not building good 'body use' habits, they are building bad ones - which, unforunately, are often impossible to eradicate. Here is Quintillian (about 100AD) on the matter: In answer to your last question - There is only one student I would turn away - The student who insisted on damaging themselves (i.e. refusing to learn how to use his/her body naturally). Many on this forum may think these 'marks of weakness, marks of woe' are no great shakes. I'm afraid it's what it's all about. To paraphrase Aristotle when asked to justify slavery - 'Just look at 'em!'

Foppish double-talk ... with respect, it is exactly this pedantic type of highflown yak about body stance and other cliches which give formal teaching the starchy name it presently enjoys.

Here’s a current quote by a young chappie on "classical stereotypes" which might just be describing me and klutz ...

"people basically regard classical music as one huge yawn and anybody playing it is automatically thought of as being an old geezer with no intensity, impossible to relate to, and generally-speaking, a bore."

Piano teachers need to change this unfortunate image ... the young pupil wants to enjoy music ... steer clear of any "old geezer" insistence on

a body stance strait-jacket (debilitating regimen)
lashings of scales and arpeggios (mind-bending boredom)
classical studies by Czerny, Hanon and Clementi (dull fare)
theory mumbo jumbo (clap trap)
triads and their inversions (old cul de sac)
key signatures with multiple sharps or flats (drag)

Sorry to bore you!!

Quintillian, Aristotle - 'Foppish double-talk'? Cor struth! Is there no hope for the world?

Hi Monica,

I would take such a student on. The difference is that they would be able to do what they want to do and so much more. It might start with a melody line and a few simple chords, but this can be developed further. You would be surprised how many students do start this way. I do not dictate what they must do. Usually, with the right encouragement they will want to explore other avenues later on. Also, they will learn those chords and scale patterns with full understanding of how and why they work and fit together. They will also learn to play 'what they want' with fluency and good technique. This has nothing to do with hours of boring and difficult technical exercises followed by a smack on the back of the hand with a ruler when they go wrong!

Now let me ask you a question. Let's say I knew someone with emotional or mental health problems. Would it be OK for me to offer to act as their therapist and charge them 'the going rate' for the privilege? I am not a psychologist like you but I think I know enough about it to give it a go. Where's the harm in that? I might even offer a slight reduction for those who can't afford someone qualified.

On the surface, it may look like pianitis is providing a service for those who don't want to be very good. It depends whether you believe that these people are encouraged to find a qualified teacher first. It is my guess that while shopping for a Clavinova, the 'salesman' will persuade the 'customer' that stuffy old traditional teachers are bad news. It must be easy to convince them that after 6 lessons and little effort they will be as good as they will ever need to be.

Pianitis, the comment you made about charging in order to keep the 'riff-raff' away worries me. This is a joke, right?

That doesn't sound like good business to me. By rejecting these students, you are actually creating a market for these "charlatan" instructors because they're now the only teachers who will accept such students.

Anyway, I fail to see what the argument is about. The traditional teachers claim that their students are happy, Pianitis claims his students are happy. Apparently the students of Pianitis don't want to take traditional lessons, and I'm assuming -- but could be wrong here -- that the students of traditional teachers aren't planning on switching soon either (because they're happy).

So we're talking about two completely different markets here, with almost no competition between them. Then what is there to argue about?

Matthijs, I think the argument is kids would happily eat candy all day long but should they be encouraged to do this or is it good for them? Honestly, I think it's a Health and Safety issue - I've seen enough damaged pianists.

I am speaking as a customer and a truly beginner and I see nothing wrong with Pianitis "method". Who first created the "standard" anyway?

As long as the teachers honestly tell them what they offer, it is up to customers to accept or refuse the offer. Stupid or not, it is their money. If they choose not to take classical lesson, and prefer other method, well....too bad, it is their money. They can spend on whatever they want.

Some traditional teachers might think that he is not sufficiently trained in technique to be teaching piano. I translate it as " he is not sufficiently trained in technique to be teaching piano the traditional way". But he is not offering traditional method to his students. Can I also say traditional teachers are not sufficiently trained in technique to be teaching piano in "free style" way?

I just started to take piano lesson, too. At first I considered taking an online course such as "Piano Magic" to improve my basic play by ear skills. I wanted to be able to play like Seaside or Mahlzeit. Btw, the PM teacher is not a traditional teacher, too and he makes a lot money. I don't think his devoted students (many of them took lesson after being frustrated by classical lessons) would keep paying the course (expensive for an online course btw) if they don't think it benefits them. I believe many of them quit because the method is not for them, and it is fine, too. They can choose whatever method they like, why? Because it is their money! As long as there is no law that says only certified classical teacher could teach, I don't think pianitis should be put in prison.

I am a self taught "play by ear" type, and I wanted to play for fun, not to be an accomplished pianist. I decided to take classical lessons first, because I'd like to learn classical music. After I got the basic, I'd probably take Piano Magic lessons. But that's my personal choice.

My older son however, doesn't like classical music. He choose electric guitar and non-traditional lesson, and I let him. If he prefer to play rock music with a stage piano, why would I waste my money and torture him to take classical lessons with an acoustic piano? He'd better off learning with a self taught Rock musician with no classical background whatsoever.

Don't forget, Pianitis only offers 6 months lesson, and after that the students are on their own. Sure the students can do much more if they take classical lessons seriously for several years. You can cook so much more, too, if you go to culinary arts school. But you don't need to get a diploma in culinary arts if what you really want is to be able to make some chinese fried rice.

just my 2 cents,

PS. Why not put this whole thread on "Adult Beginner Forum" and see what "customers" say. I bet it would be very very interesting.

There is no 'traditional' way to play the piano just as there is no 'traditional' way to sprint 100m. There is ONE way - the way that uses your body in accordance with how it functions.

Fair enough. There is no doubt in my mind that a good "traditional" teacher can provide the kind of instruction that prevents damaged pianists.

And while I'm sure the teachers on this board are good, dedicated teachers, apparently many other teachers cannot or do not provide the kind of instruction that many people want.

Because they may not be aware of the "health and safety issue" these people would rather get instruction from teachers like Pianitis who does teach them what they want to learn, albeit without the bits that they really ought to learn but are not aware of.

So the demands of many students do not match the (perceived) supply from many traditional teachers. Seems to me that piano teachers have an image problem...

Your right Matthijs, 'good' is very much the operative word here. Good teachers are very few and far between whatever style they deliver. Since watching a video of the PianoMagic 'guy' play (to leave his scale playing aside), I've seen he uses his body very well. I have wondered and commented to seaside_lee since, whether he delivers that to his students. Seaside assures me he does, but I haven't seen it. On the other hand another 'play by ear' course had appalling misuse of wrists.

Whatever style you care to checkout, the teaching is more often than not a mess. Answers on a postcard PLEASE!

quote: Somebody understands! Thank You.

I do tell them I cannot sight read. I cannot play the classics, I cannot teach them to play like anyone but me. They seem to want to do just that.

Pianitis..what your merely doing is providing inspiration to play the piano ..which to many people seem daunting and moumental..thats why I'm glad there are programs such as Piano Guy..Piano Magic and the like..without the inspiration to play..the piano becomes just another piece of furniture gathering dust..I've played Jazz guitar for 40yrs..and piano for 4yrs ..I would give any
piano student the benefit of my piano knowelege
I play chord piano..peronally I would only teach teens and adults..no kids! Bob Newbie

Has any of you see Pianitis playing to be able to say his method is "not safe" and/or "un-natural"?

I don't get it. Yes, I wish there is only ONE religion, too, so people don't have to choose which one is the "surest" way to go to heaven. Unfortunately, even the way to God is not only one. And people choose their own, whether you agree or not.

In music, too, for me Rap is not "music". Unfortunately, many people don't agree with me, and pay big $$$ to see rap "concert" and learn rap music. But who am I to say that their "taste" is "wrong"?

I found it ironic reading your signature about re-inventing the wheel. Yes, that's is exactly what people like Pianitis or Piano Magic do. They sure know the road well, look how many people buying their "wheel", whether you like it or not.

There may be lots of religions but only one god (if that's where your coming from). The point is study the highway code BEFORE you get behind the wheel.

I think the main reason there is a market for what Pianitis does has more to do with today's society of immediate gratification than anything else. Everything has to be now, not in 5 years, despite the fact that when you put more effort into something, you get more out of it. Technology has been able to substitute for hard work, and so after 6 months, a person can potentitally be happy with the results, because little or no effort needs to be put in. Technology does the work for them. And people are happy with that, because they do not see the value in hard work.

I'm not a snob, perhaps just an idealist. Incidentally, one cannot get such immediate results in any other instrument or voice (unless you're a rare talent), so this is unique to the piano 'discipline' (if we can call it that anymore). So Pianitis may be filling some need, but he is a facilitator in a much greater problem in my opinion, than his apparent lack of knowledge.

btb: I don't always agree with what you have to say, but do love the way you say it! LOL

I really don't see there being two different markets. There are people who wish to learn piano and are willing to pay someone to teach them. One market.

The confusion is in thinking that there is some difference between 'traditional' and 'non-traditional' teachers. I would like to hear someone's definition of a traditional teacher. I would bet it is a stereotype which does not reflect the vast majority of qualified professional piano teachers out there.

The notion that people will pay for tuition and not want to be very good is rubbish. Most will say this because they don't believe it is possible for them to play well (especially adult learners). Nearly every call I get is from someone who wants to play 'for fun' and has no great expectations. Very few will tell you that they wish to become great pianists. I teach an adult student who a few years back insisted that she just wanted to be able to sit and play basic pieces. It turned out she was rather good at it and had the time to practise regularly. Despite originally not wanting anything to do with exams she is now working towards her grade 8. Quite often people do not realise their own potential when they first take up lessons. I am not saying this is always the case. Some students are happy to achieve a basic understanding and will leave it there. Nothing wrong with that. At least they were given the chance.

I can play the guitar a little bit. I am able to busk a few chords and pick out simple tunes. Many times, people have asked if I would teach them. Not a chance. I am fully aware that I am not a good enough guitarist to offer them quality tuition. I would not feel right about taking their money. Instead, I will pass them on to a reputable guitar teacher in my local area.

I find it very hard to believe that all these customers who enter pianitis's store are unhappy with their current teachers. Boy must there be some poor teachers in that area. Maybe they only start to think about changing after pianitis has promissed that it's possible to fake it after a few lessons from him? I don't know.

I make no apology for feeling that music education is important. I see the damage caused by this kind of 'teaching' on a regular basis. So many students whose parents are not aware that the first teacher is perhaps the most important pick up bad habits which are almost impossible to rectify later on. Someone will teach them basics and then send them on their way when they reach the point where that teacher no longer has anything to offer. These students then come to me and expect to progress to the next level. How frustrating it is for both teacher and student to have to back track and re-learn vital skills.

You are quite right pianitis, there will always be a market for you. Just like there is a market for cowboy builders and tradesmen who rely on the ignorance of their customers. Your conscience is clear because at the end of the day it is only piano.