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#966465 - 05/14/07 08:30 AM Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
LisztAddict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 2896
Loc: Florida

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#966466 - 05/14/07 11:15 AM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
metronome Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/07
Posts: 55
Bravo! There is really only one way to play Chopin I was taught, and that's with complete melodic fluidity over a rhythmically solid accompaniment.. and you did a wonderful job. The left hand chords were transparent yet light, the melody was full of warmth and passionate..a challenge for me the day I started learning this piece, and that was 2 years ago. And I like the tempo to your performance, some other recordings are much too fast and the semiquaver beats to the crotchets were too jumpy and all.
One question (I hope to improve my knowledge and playing on this pc), on the last semiquaver beat in measure 16, almost all performers play it as G an octave apart. I had mine (the henle edition) written out as B natural. Is it ok if I play it as G? I really think it sounds more intense as the melody comes on again right after.

One more question, I noticed you played the embellishments before the main beats for eg in measure 15..I'm wondering if Chopin had intended it to be played that way or otherwise?

Thanks again for sharing with us your wonderful playing!
_________________________
"No time".. Saddest words ever spoken or written.

Nope..I'm gonna live each day to the fullest smile

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#966467 - 05/14/07 12:26 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
LisztAddict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 2896
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by metronome:
There is really only one way to play Chopin I was taught, and that's with complete melodic fluidity over a rhythmically solid accompaniment[/b]
That's how I was taught also.


 Quote:
Originally posted by metronome:
on the last semiquaver beat in measure 16, almost all performers play it as G an octave apart. I had mine (the henle edition) written out as B natural. Is it ok if I play it as G? [/b]
I play it as G. I don't think I have seen any score or heard any pianist plays this last semiquaver as B natural.

 Quote:
Originally posted by metronome:
One more question, I noticed you played the embellishments before the main beats for eg in measure 15..I'm wondering if Chopin had intended it to be played that way or otherwise?
[/b]
I used to play and also prefer to play the first E on the beat and together with the LH just like the embellishments (measure 63) in the doppio movimento section; I can stretch out the time for as long as needed to squeeze in all the RH notes into this last beat because it's the last beat of the measure/phrase. But after listening to Ashkenazy, Rubinstein, and a few other pros, they all played the embellishments before the main beat and G on the beat with the LH, so I changed just to be on the safe side.

I don't have a teacher to check on me so I just follow what most of the pros do.

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#966468 - 05/14/07 12:44 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
metronome Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/07
Posts: 55
Thanks for helping me out LisztAddict. As to measure 16, I will ask my teacher if it's ok to play it as G altho my score says otherwise. The reason I asked was for exam purposes as well, as I was made to understand that I should follow strictly to the edition that I would be using (the examiners will be given a copy during the exam) for checking purposes etc..I'd really like to play it as a G instead.

As for the embellishments, I'll check with him again as well, and keep you posted. Am really inspired to polish this pc up soon after listening to you play. Thanks again!
_________________________
"No time".. Saddest words ever spoken or written.

Nope..I'm gonna live each day to the fullest smile

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#966469 - 05/15/07 11:16 AM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18295
Loc: Victoria, BC
 Quote:
Originally posted by metronome:
[...]As to measure 16, I will ask my teacher if it's ok to play it as G altho my score says otherwise. The reason I asked was for exam purposes as well, as I was made to understand that I should follow strictly to the edition that I would be using (the examiners will be given a copy during the exam) for checking purposes etc..I'd really like to play it as a G instead.

[/b]
In your case, might you consider writing in a G octave in parentheses and clearly marking the score that you give to the examiner : "All other editions - name them - have G at this point"? (You might even be able to cite other editions than the ones I list that give G instead of B.) That should certainly clear you and justify your not following the score at that point.

Along with the Henle which has a B natural at this point, my three other editions of the Nocturnes (Novello, Peters, Granz) all have G.

Regards,
_________________________
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#966470 - 05/15/07 12:08 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
metronome Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/07
Posts: 55
Yes that I could do. I am working on memorizing the piece now, and playing it as a G feels just right.

Thanks for the advice BruceD.
_________________________
"No time".. Saddest words ever spoken or written.

Nope..I'm gonna live each day to the fullest smile

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#966471 - 05/25/07 07:21 AM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
Kuyt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 41
Loc: California
Man LisztAddict, that recording really made me finally realize the genius of this beautiful piece.

The first time I heard it I just thought of it as a boring piece of garbled melodies and such--what piano did you record that on, the playing was amazing.
_________________________
Music breaks the ice beyond the visible boundary of any kind, freeing the human spirit.

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#966472 - 05/25/07 08:58 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
LisztAddict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 2896
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kuyt:
The first time I heard it I just thought of it as a boring piece of garbled melodies and such........[/b]
I hope it wasn't my recording the first time you heard it. \:D

The piano is Pramberger JP-208. The recording device is portable Zoom H4. It was recorded in MP3 format at 320 kbps. I converted it to MP3 Pro 96 kbps.

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#966473 - 05/26/07 08:42 AM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
Kuyt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 41
Loc: California
Well, the first time I heard it was on a Roland clavanova being practiced by a high school junior....
_________________________
Music breaks the ice beyond the visible boundary of any kind, freeing the human spirit.

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#966474 - 05/31/07 06:12 AM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
Matthew Collett Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 536
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
 Quote:
Originally posted by LisztAddict:
I play it as G. I don't think I have seen any score or heard any pianist plays this last semiquaver as B natural.
[/b]
I prefer the effect of the B, and would play it that way if I could stretch the tenth cleanly. Since I can't (quite) and think a roll would distract from the upper line at that point, I go with the G.

Best wishes,
Matthew
_________________________
"Passions, violent or not, may never be expressed to the point of revulsion; even in the most frightening situation music must never offend the ear but must even then offer enjoyment, i.e. must always remain music." -- W.A.Mozart

212cm Fazioli: some photos and recordings .
Auckland Catholic Music Schola .

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#966475 - 01/25/08 07:34 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
Damz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Montreal, Canada
LisztAddict, I sent an e-mail to my piano teacher with links to a few Zoom H4 recordings from members of this forum to give him an idea of the sound improvement he could get over his YouTube clips if he used a Zoom to record the sound, and among the samples was your interpretation of this very nocturne. He then replied "Qui joue le chopin ? c'est bien joué..." which could be translated as "Who's playing the Chopin ? It is well-performed...".

I just thought I'd pass on to you the good words comming from a professional pianist. By the way, I agree with him, your recording is beautiful and inspiring !

I wish to tackle this piece eventually... it is so gorgeous. \:\)

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#966476 - 01/25/08 09:16 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
Nice playing. You've know the piece well.
A couple of things.
I like the opening. Perhaps you could make more out of the p at measure 14? You crescendo in measure 16-I'm not sure why, as it isn't in MY score (Paderewski).
The Poco piu lento I find is all a little too loud. Measure 29 I would have liked to hear more melody (I know it's difficult).
Great job at measure 34 bringing out the A, A#, B melody!
Your octave section gets too loud to quickly, even 39 is too loud, IMHO. I didn't hear the G in the bass at 43 but this could have been my speakers.
The octaves from 46-48 are all fairly good.
My main issue in your performance was the doppio movimento section. First of all, the melody is NOT in triplets. You play the melody notes as if they are all part of the triplets of the accompanying chords. This is not a correct reading of the score. The melody is the same melody from section A. It is NOT "tripletized" as you play it. For example-there SHOULD be 2 against 3 at measure 63. You instead play the F in the melody with the Ab major chord, the C with the low F octave in the bass, and later the Eb on with the Ab+ chord in the LH.
We are still in 4/4 time here. Chopin clearly wrote the melody here (Measure 63) in simple 8th notes just as he did in measure 15, where the melody is identical.
Look closely at the score. Throughout the doppio movimento section the melody is THE SAME as in section A of the piece. Why do you "tripletize" the melody notes when they are clearly NOT part of the accompanying chords?

Lastly, I felt the that the melody in the doppio movimento section was not voiced enough. This is particularly apparent in measure 65.

This is somewhat hypercritical but... you are obviously playing on a very high level here, so let's not mess around. You play this piece WELL. I want you to understand that.
I'll post my video of this piece-it will help you understand how you misread the score, and hopefully you will fix it.
I would also like to point out that when I first learned this beautiful Nocturne, I misread the score in the doppio movimento section as well. I played it incorrectly for 1 year before someone pointed this out to me.

Your playing is sensitive and creative. Your technique is quite good. I look forward to hearing more from you in the future!
Mr_Kitty

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#966477 - 01/26/08 12:19 AM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
LisztAddict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 2896
Loc: Florida
Thanks for listening.

The p at measure 15? yeah, I missed that p \:D

The crescendo at measure 16? - kind of like Dong-Min Lim played, right?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NRuD1L9FPZA
I know most people don't make the crescendo there. But my teacher wanted me to build it up a bit into measure 17.

Anyway, about the 8th notes in the RH melody, believe me, that's how I played it when I first learned this piece - 8th notes of the melody fall in between the triplets; exactly the opposite of what you did. My teacher said NO NO NO! It's written as 8th notes, but it's on top of the third note of the LH triplets. If you listen carefully to Ashkenzy, T'song, Pires, or Lim in that youtube link above, you will hear they all play the way I do. I doubt that you can find any well-known pianist that plays the RH 8th notes in between the LH triplets. If I remember correctly, this 8th note thing is also mentioned in the Cortot's edition.

Measure 65 - yes, I need watch the triplets and put more power into the pinky.

I know there is always room for improvement. Thanks for the feedbacks. \:\)

I have a few recordings floating somewhere on the forum. Some are okay, some are a bit crappy.

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#966478 - 01/26/08 12:32 AM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
Secondo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 312
Loc: Seattle, Washington
Beautiful piece. You play very well! Thanks for posting in a format that I can access! I am inspired to learn this piece.
_________________________
Baldwin SF-10 320152, Marshall & Wendell, Steinway B

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#966479 - 01/26/08 03:06 AM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
Yeah I don't see a crescendo at measure 16. What edition are you using? I had a teacher that wanted me to build it up for 17 too but... I don't see it in my score and I don't like it anyway but....
Ashkenazy, T'song, Pires, and Lim have evidently misread the score as well. Look closely at your score. You (and aforementioned pianists) are playing it as it is printed. I play it as it was composed.

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#966480 - 01/26/08 03:46 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18295
Loc: Victoria, BC
It was a very common practice in the 19th Century to write - and to play - eighth-note melody-notes over triplets as triplets; this is discussed in some editions, and some editors suggest that this remains a matter of performance choice.

To suggest that Ashkenzy, T'song, and Pires among others "have evidently misread the score" in the same manner that LisztAddict has "misread" the score seems to me somewhat out of line. Surely, this is an aspect of score reading and interpretation that those performers with their extensive training have duly taken into account, and I would certainly take their interpretation as a viable one. I can't imagine the likes of such performers being so uninformed musically and so untrained in performance practice that they would "misread" the score as you have suggested.

You may not agree with their interpretation, and, while I don't think that concert artists with international reputations are infallible and can do no wrong, but to suggest ignorance on their part in this instance I think is inappropriate.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
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#966481 - 01/26/08 05:15 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
Damz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Montreal, Canada
You're sounding as arrogant as they come Mr Kitty, you better post your video soon so that we can hear how this piece should be played...

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#966482 - 01/26/08 06:35 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
Inappropriate? Out of line? Arrogant?
You'd better post your video soon?
***
Bruce-just look at the score. The melody is not in triplets. End of story.
Ashkenazy, Fou T'song, and Pires can do whatever they want.
So can you, and so can LisztAddict.
I am simply pointing out what's in the score. But I guess that's out of line, arrogant and just plain rude.

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#966483 - 01/27/08 11:56 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
Damz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Montreal, Canada
Is it too late to take back my comment ? Re-reading it I realize that it is me who was a bit inappropriate and even childish... You have all the rights to disagree with the choices of interpration made by even the best pianists. I guess I didn't like your use of the word "misread", which suggested that these pianists had made a mistake, but it seems like you only meant to say that what they were doing differed from what is strictly written on the score, and that's fine. I hope no offense is taken.

By the way I still look forward to hearing your rendition of this piece, as it's without a doubt my favorite nocturne and overall one of my favorite piece of music, and judging by your Étude Transcendentale posted in the pianist corner it seems like you can play \:\)

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#966484 - 01/28/08 12:42 AM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
"These pianists" make mistakes. They misread scores. They don't always get enough sleep the night before. They don't always practice enough while on tour. They sometimes get to the concert and play with fistfulls of wrong notes. They also take their kids to school. They even do laundry.
Great pianists are human.
Just because you have a manager and give 100 performances a year does NOT mean you are the Godly authority on all earthly things. It MEANS that you play the piano to a certain standard, people LIKE your playing and ARE WILLING to pay to hear it.
There are probably 50 or 100 people in the world who make $10000+ per concert. These people may or may not have something special about their abilities to interpret classical music. They DO have a certain sound, a certain image, a certain reputation, that causes people to pay to hear their performances.

THERE ARE FIVE THOUSAND other people in the world who play at the same level OR higher.
THEY DO NOT make $10000 per concert. These people may or may not have something special about their abilities to interpret classical music. I went to a Richard Goode recital last week. It was fantastic. I loved almost every minute of it.
However, I have half a dozen friends who could have played the exact same program much better. NO, they wouldn't have played it with Richard Goode's phrasing, Richard Goode's sound, and Richard Goode's artistry but they would have played it CLOSER to the score with 1/10th the number of mistakes. However, people like Richard Goode and Richard Goode went home that night $20000 richer (not 10... 20). Sorry to single out Richard Goode-he's one of my favourite pianists. I just happened to go to his recital last week, so I used his name as an example.

To assume that famous pianists are simply incapable of misreading a score is foolishness. Vladimir Ashkenazy won second prize at the Chopin Competition in Warsaw in 1955. That does not make him incapable of misreading a score-for God's sake the guy reads TEN THOUSAND SCORES A YEAR. He's probably recorded 4/5ths of the standard repertoire! He is a wonderful pianist. But totally human and therefore prone to making the odd mistake.

I am not saying that famous pianists are not the great artists that they are.
I am not saying that the 5000 of us without $10000 cheques to blow their noses with are in any way superior to Richard Goode, Vladimir Ashkenazy or anyone else.
I'm saying that we're ALL human.

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#966485 - 01/28/08 01:36 AM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
Damz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Montreal, Canada
Of course, I didn't mean they couldn't do mistakes, only that in this case, as BruceD mentioned, it is unlikely that their approach to this specific section with quavers and triplets was unintended, in my opinion. (That way it can't be further argued ;\) ).

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#966486 - 01/28/08 10:29 AM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
LisztAddict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 2896
Loc: Florida
I did not misread the score. I actually played 2 over 3 at one time, but I was told that's not how it's supposed to be played.

If you look at some other 2 vs 3 from other Chopin compositions, for example the Piu mosso section of Nocturne 27/1, or Nocturne 32/2, you will see that the second note of the RH is clearly written in between 2nd and 3rd of the LH triplets. Unlike those 2 over 3, in this 48/1, the 2nd of the RH is written precisely above the 3rd note of the LH. I have a recording of Pollini playing this piece at 1960 Chopin, and he played the RH together with LH triplets. If that's a big error, then the judges misread the score too?

I can't find my Rubinstein CD, but so far, I have Ashkenazy (2nd in Chopin competition), T'song (3rd), Pollini (1st), Dang (1st), from the youtube video - Lim (3rd), and they all play the RH together with LH triplets. If that's wrong, then they misread the score, their teachers misread the score, and the judges at those comps misread the score also.

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#966487 - 01/28/08 10:48 AM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
I realize you haven't misread the score.
Rubenstein, Ashkenazy, and Pollini have all made a conscious choice regarding how they wish to play the doppio movimento.
I prefer the melody to be set against the triplets, as it appears in my score. The notes are not clearly written in between the 2nd and 3rd note of the triplets as they are in other Nocturnes, but they are NOT triplets. However, Chopin never set this piece to type. He wrote it out on manuscript. Whoever typeset the C- Nocturne can be credited with the original misreading of the score.
I realize it is almost always played how your teacher told you to play it.
Your interpretation is perfectly legit, as are those of Ashkenazy and Rubinstein.
I prefer the cross rhythm and will continue to play it that way no matter who tells me otherwise. Except perhaps for Chopin 2010... ;\)
When in Rome.....

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#966488 - 03/14/08 12:00 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
Stawbry Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 2
Loc: South East Wisconsin
I'm just a poor amateur pianist with little or no 'professional' training but I have 'learned' to play the Op 48 No1 of Chopin and I notice that my score (Alfreds Masterwork Ed)has the rt hand 8ths in the 1st measure of the Doppio as triplets and learned to play them that way Also (surprise, surprise ) I've only heard this piece played by concert pianist once many years ago when I was a kid and before I could even play myself so certainly did not recognise this 'anomally' at that time
I find it very refreshing to read such a wealth of information and thank all concerned although I think it too late in the day for me to correct my playing of this wonderful piece
Incedently, I read somewhere that Chopin never meant his compositions to be played at all in a 'romantic' style whereas many professional pianist play his works that way ?

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#966489 - 03/31/08 11:05 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
Haizel Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 102
Loc: NewYork
Liszt addict - I have to say this is the most beautiful interpretation I ‘vet heard for this Nocturne. Your touch is outstandingly beautiful and your recording is very professional. I enjoyed listening to your recording and I have it in my Ipod now. Thanks for sharing.

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#966490 - 09/18/08 03:31 AM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
Deon van aswegen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/08
Posts: 142
Loc: South Africa
Beautifull playing - maybe just pay more attention to the melody in the last section. Also, some dryness noticed - maybe just a touch more pedal to avoid decay.

I also agree with your reading of the last section - let it freely flow!

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#966491 - 09/20/08 10:04 AM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor
Strat Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 580
Loc: Toronto, Canada
I enjoyed it, but the 1st half, IMHO, is too slow for my liking. Makes the piece sound... well,... not as interesting as it could be.

You play it well, but I'd like more life in the 1st half. The 2nd half is like the piece just woke up. I really enjoyed the 2nd half!

Keep up the good work!
_________________________
Started playing in mid-June 2007. Self-taught... for now. :p

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#1282901 - 10/08/09 09:08 AM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor [Re: Strat]
LisztAddict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 2896
Loc: Florida


Edited by LisztAddict (10/08/09 09:14 AM)

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#1282942 - 10/08/09 10:28 AM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor [Re: LisztAddict]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1746
Loc: Colorado
A very excellent rendition - a joy to my ear!

Thank you for sharing it
Glen
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A Bit of YouTube
PTG Associate Member

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#1284116 - 10/09/09 11:58 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor [Re: Inlanding]
PIANOisCRACK Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 1
Loc: Indiana
Your interpretation of this piece of beautiful. The way you played the first part is deceivingly difficult. At first hearing it seems as though there's little emotion or difficulty in it, but I trust your interpretation; if the first section was dramatic, the later sections wouldn't be surprising. It's subtle at the more technical spots and deliberate especially at the end of the first section. My only complaint is the last measure of the first section with the triplets: it feels rushed; it doesn't fit with how you play the surrounding measures (I'm not saying I don't like it, I'm sure you have a reason for it).
Your interpretation is very cohesive; great job with the transitions. I'm at a loss for words when it comes to playing or listening to this piece.

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#1284148 - 10/10/09 02:08 AM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Op 48 No 1 in C minor [Re: PIANOisCRACK]
Fun Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/21/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
This is the 1st time I listened to this piece, and I really enjoy it. I like how you handle the accompaniment. Very clear and firm sound. The melody of the main theme is very haunting. I can't help but sing along with the music smile Thanks for sharing!


Edited by Fun (10/10/09 02:19 AM)
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Estonia L190 in Pyramid Mahogany, Petrof 125F in Ebony Polished
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How to learn everything and anything about piano?
by MrMusicianship
Today at 07:22 PM
is my piano tunable
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SSHD running VST
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Today at 05:01 PM
do you recommend further service?
by ShannonG
Today at 04:34 PM
Is this now real enough?
by Philip_Johnston
Today at 04:21 PM
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