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#966848 - 01/02/06 08:08 PM IS IT SAFE?
DCshoesGIRL Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 102
no offense to anyone out there......but is it safe to post compositions i've composed myself.....without it being copy written first....i mean, cant anyone that hears it just..steal it?
_________________________
My music reflects me......and my mood.....[Monica]

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Piano & Music Acc. / Sheet Music


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#966849 - 01/03/06 02:36 AM Re: IS IT SAFE?
sarabande Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 1597
Loc: Mo.
Yes, I've wondered that same thing.

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#966850 - 01/03/06 03:57 AM Re: IS IT SAFE?
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5344
Loc: Philadelphia
If you ever intend to make money from the venture, I'd suggest holding off until you have a copyright filed. Technically, in simply writing it first, you own the copyright, so the work is yours. But by law, you cannot recover losses in court (if someone were to sell it without your consent and refuse to pay royalties) without filing for a copyright. So, I toss the ball back to you to decide what to do. ;\)
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#966851 - 01/03/06 06:42 AM Re: IS IT SAFE?
iNBi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 220
Loc: Switzerland
who said we'd WANT to steal it?? ;\)

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#966852 - 01/03/06 03:50 PM Re: IS IT SAFE?
DCshoesGIRL Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 102
ok, thanx guys, thats what i thought. I will just hold off for a little while longer, but I am planning on soon making a CD then sending the cd to be copy written, instead of writing out all my music and having each copy written(which will take more time, and more money)but I do plan to have all my sheet music copy written, but one at a time......and its not that I expect many people to want to steal it, and everyone ive seen on this site has been really nice and helpful, but its just that I just want to be careful, cause you never know....plus, I do plan to sell CDs and stuff once I start making them......but once I do get some copy written, I'll make sure I post them for U guys to hear, then U can tell me what U think.
_________________________
My music reflects me......and my mood.....[Monica]

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#966853 - 01/03/06 04:05 PM Re: IS IT SAFE?
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
Someone said on another website that if you
post anything on the web, then that's technically
the same as a copyright because you've
essentially "published" it first. But then
you have the problem of whether the website
is going to be there permanently as a
record of your publication. And also, since
you post under an internet handle rather
than your full name, there's the problem
of identifying yourself as the writer.

I've also heard that a very quick and
inexpensive way to copyright anything is
to gather all your manuscripts and put
them in envelope and send them to yourself
by registered mail, and then never open it.
Then that sealed envelope is the copyright, to be
opened only when you want to prove the
song is yours sometime in the future.

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#966854 - 01/03/06 04:12 PM Re: IS IT SAFE?
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5344
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gyro:
Someone said on another website that if you
post anything on the web, then that's technically
the same as a copyright because you've
essentially "published" it first. But then
you have the problem of whether the website
is going to be there permanently as a
record of your publication. And also, since
you post under an internet handle rather
than your full name, there's the problem
of identifying yourself as the writer.

I've also heard that a very quick and
inexpensive way to copyright anything is
to gather all your manuscripts and put
them in envelope and send them to yourself
by registered mail, and then never open it.
Then that sealed envelope is the copyright, to be
opened only when you want to prove the
song is yours sometime in the future. [/b]
Read what I wrote.

As soon as you write something, you own the copyright to it. The "mail it to yourself" is no longer valid as a means of use for recovering losses/damage. ;\)
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#966855 - 01/03/06 04:37 PM Re: IS IT SAFE?
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
I think your definition of copyright is too
restricted. Of course, it would be best to
formally copyright every single item you create,
but in practice I believe that there are
other ways that copyright can be established,
other than a formal copyright--anything
that definitely establishes date of
creation and you as the creator, for
example: publication, either in print or
on the web; notarization, in some
contexts; registered mail; and so forth.

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#966856 - 01/03/06 07:23 PM Re: IS IT SAFE?
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5344
Loc: Philadelphia
Dude, I'm a writer. I know the copyright laws very well in order to protect my own work. I'm right. (And, for the record, the latter half of your latest post is exactly what I said originally, with the exception that you cannot seek "anything" in court without a formally-filed copyright.)
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

Top
#966857 - 01/03/06 10:39 PM Re: IS IT SAFE?
PiNGPoNG-DT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/31/05
Posts: 49
Loc: California
I just know that there are slightly different rules between copyrighting writings and copyrighting scores/music--though I'm unclear as to the specifics.

How exactly do you go about getting a copyright for each, Derulux?
Is it that thing where you send the writing/score to the Library of Congress and pay them the fee, or am I incorrect?

Also, how long do copyrights last? It seems like sometimes things get copyrighted again after a certain period of time, but I don't know if it was just because the system was changed a couple decades back.

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#966858 - 01/04/06 03:35 AM Re: IS IT SAFE?
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5344
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
Originally posted by PiNGPoNG-DT:
I just know that there are slightly different rules between copyrighting writings and copyrighting scores/music--though I'm unclear as to the specifics.

How exactly do you go about getting a copyright for each, Derulux?
Is it that thing where you send the writing/score to the Library of Congress and pay them the fee, or am I incorrect?

Also, how long do copyrights last? It seems like sometimes things get copyrighted again after a certain period of time, but I don't know if it was just because the system was changed a couple decades back. [/b]
Yes, you must file for the copyright and pay the fee. (You must always pay the government to aid you.) ;\)

Copyrights are "life + 50" for most works. I think musical works fit in this category. People re-file for copyrights for any number of reasons. The rights could change hands, a new edition could come out, etc. You don't really have to worry about the changeover period, since we're already past it, but only really need to be concerned with current law. ;\)

Here are the basics: U.S. Copyright Office if you're interested in finding something specific. \:\)
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#966859 - 01/04/06 08:59 AM Re: IS IT SAFE?
sarabande Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 1597
Loc: Mo.
On another site I've posted on, the website "rules and regulations" state that whatever one posts becomes owned by the site. That one cannot come back and make legal claims on what one wrote in a post. So according to that any post becomes the property of the site. I'm not sure how it works on this site, or if it would pertain to posted compositions - you may want to ask.

As you said the members all seem nice on this site. However, there are a lot of "guests" reading the site, so anybody out there has access to your posted compositions even if not members of the site.

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#966860 - 01/04/06 09:15 AM Re: IS IT SAFE?
sarabande Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 1597
Loc: Mo.
ps - Another thought I had was what if one had their own website? Then would whatever you posted on your own website be legally owned by you as you would hold the copyright on your site? If you had your own website, then you could give us the link to listen to your compositions there although it would still be wise I'm sure to have your compositions copyrighted first anyway.

You might want to ask around to some members who have their own websites.

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#966861 - 01/04/06 12:07 PM Re: IS IT SAFE?
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5344
Loc: Philadelphia
The link I provided has all of those answers within the U.S.

In a forum for which you sign a waiver to release all works to the forum itself, I suppose it's a possibility. But most of those "clauses" are written by moderators, who are usually teenagers and don't really know the law very well. There are loopholes abound. Still, I would add a disclaimer in any such forum stating something like, "Work previously copyrighted by [your name]". Then there is no discrepancy...it's yours, not theirs. ;\)

Regarding your own websites... You\'ll need to read through this to find the answer. (It's the addendum to the Copyright Law. The addendum is approximately 90 pages long and was written into law in 1999.) ;\)
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

Top
#966862 - 01/04/06 01:16 PM Re: IS IT SAFE?
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
Copyright regulations apply specifically to
the procedures for obtaining formal copyrights.
As to the legal issues involving copyrights,
that's a whole different field with its own
rules. If you write a song and then mail
it to yourself by registered mail and keep
it, unopened, and someone makes a big
hit out of the song and shuts you out of
the profits, I believe that you could still seek
remedy in court even without having a formal
copyright.

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#966863 - 01/04/06 01:23 PM Re: IS IT SAFE?
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5344
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gyro:
Copyright regulations apply specifically to
the procedures for obtaining formal copyrights.
As to the legal issues involving copyrights,
that's a whole different field with its own
rules. If you write a song and then mail
it to yourself by registered mail and keep
it, unopened, and someone makes a big
hit out of the song and shuts you out of
the profits, I believe that you could still seek
remedy in court even without having a formal
copyright. [/b]
Look, I'm sick of being coordial about this. No, you can't. You're wrong. WRONG.

If you want to read the ACTUAL LAW, feel free to go to the link I provided in this thread. Otherwise, please stop misleading people.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

Top
#966864 - 01/04/06 01:32 PM Re: IS IT SAFE?
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
These are government regulations applying to
the procedures for obtaining formal copyrights.
When you seek remedy in court for copyright
issues, other things come into play which
are specific to the legal field, such as
precedent, which would not be spelled out
in these types of regulations.

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#966865 - 01/04/06 03:12 PM Re: IS IT SAFE?
sarabande Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 1597
Loc: Mo.
I haven't gotten so far myself as to have anything I would want to copyright. I might eventually so I appreciate the info. provided on this thread.

I guess my philosophy in several facets of life not just this topic is as the saying goes:

"Better to be safe than sorry."

If one is really concerned about posted work being copied before legal copyright is obtained, wouldn't it be best to "error" on the side of being safe. If one wanted advice on a composition in progress, I guess it could be sent to another member privately. If one just posted part of the work such as a phrase that one was having trouble with or to give others an idea of what you were writing, it may make it less attractive to copy the idea. I suppose when sharing uncopyrighted material with others, there is always the chance it will be copied. If I was planning on trying to sell a work, I definitely wouldn't post it. If you are that far along you probably should be advising the rest of us on our works and not the other way around.

If I posted something I wrote on a forum, I would post only if I were willing to forego rights to it. Otherwise I may only send it privately to members individually who I respected for their advice.

I once heard someone famous interviewed although I can't recall who it was when asked if they were worried about their work being copied. The answer was, "it's a compliment when others copy one's work." Of course they were speaking in terms of already copyrighted material not works being sold out from under them.

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#966866 - 01/04/06 04:53 PM Re: IS IT SAFE?
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5344
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gyro:
These are government regulations applying to
the procedures for obtaining formal copyrights.
When you seek remedy in court for copyright
issues, other things come into play which
are specific to the legal field, such as
precedent, which would not be spelled out
in these types of regulations. [/b]
Look, I was about as blunt as I can be. If you want to continue to be ignorant, that's fine. But do it on your own time and stop confusing other members.

I know this law far better than you.
Even if I didn't, it is spelled out in its entirety with all of its addendums, changes, and "etcs" listed. I even gave you the freaking link to the digital-age addition to the law.

The ENTIRE law is spelled out in that link.

If you had read it, you'd realize how absolutely blatantly wrong you are. Now, please...stop already. If you were only embarassing yourself, I'd let you go. But you're going to confuse other members and possibly land them in trouble if they ever wind up in a dispute over this stuff. So please, for their sake, just shut up until you know what you're talking about.
----------------------------------------


If one is really concerned about posted work being copied before legal copyright is obtained, wouldn't it be best to "error" on the side of being safe. [/b]
You get a five year "grace period" for which you can seek to recover losses. (In other words, under most circumstances, you can receive a filed copyright notice up to five years after creating the work and still recover those losses. The reason, generally, is that sometimes it takes a while to get a copyright, and with some things, like "Harry Potter", you don't want to sit around waiting...so you publish it and then retro- the protection when you get it.) ;\)

The answer was, "it's a compliment when others copy one's work." Of course they were speaking in terms of already copyrighted material not works being sold out from under them. [/b]
Yes, I believe the saying goes, "Immitation is the greatest form of flattery, but steal my stuff and I'll shove a boot up your ***." :p ;\)
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#966867 - 01/04/06 09:48 PM Re: IS IT SAFE?
PiNGPoNG-DT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/31/05
Posts: 49
Loc: California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
Yes, you must file for the copyright and pay the fee. (You must always pay the government to aid you.) ;\)

Copyrights are "life + 50" for most works. I think musical works fit in this category. People re-file for copyrights for any number of reasons. The rights could change hands, a new edition could come out, etc. You don't really have to worry about the changeover period, since we're already past it, but only really need to be concerned with current law. ;\)

Here are the basics: U.S. Copyright Office if you're interested in finding something specific. \:\) [/b]
Thanks!

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#966868 - 01/05/06 01:33 PM Re: IS IT SAFE?
DCshoesGIRL Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 102
Wow, I really learned alot from this....thanx guys.....oh and I havta say Derulux....I have done in the past what gyro said about the mailing it to yourself thing, cause thats what someone had told me to do....but, I wont be doin that no more....lol.
_________________________
My music reflects me......and my mood.....[Monica]

Top
#966869 - 01/05/06 02:44 PM Re: IS IT SAFE?
wolfindmist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/04
Posts: 1478
Loc: In a state full of Volcanoes
Has anyone also mentioned that if you print out something tat you have written or you have performed something you have written in public for the first time without a copyright notice attached or mentioned --- that it may then possibly be considered in the public domain (unless the copyright laws have changed regarding public domain materials ).

So for example if you publish a poem for the first time in a paper, book, magazine or on the net without printing the copyright notice on it--- you may run the risk of having it considered a part of the public domain and losing your royalty rights. I am not a lawyer though. So I can only tell you what I recall from my school days.

BTW Someone tell Frank that the Piano World Website's copyright notice for the site and it's archives needs to be updatded (it's a trivial point as it is generally understood the intellectual property on the site belongs to Frank but he might want to change the date just to be accurate---- see the bottom of the page. States copyright 1997-2005. It is 2006. LOL.
--- just a few cents
_________________________
I have my own weapon of mass destruction in the form of a "teenage" German Shepherd. Anything she spies and can get ahold of is fair game.

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#966870 - 01/06/06 05:36 AM Re: IS IT SAFE?
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5344
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
Has anyone also mentioned that if you print out something tat you have written or you have performed something you have written in public for the first time without a copyright notice attached or mentioned --- that it may then possibly be considered in the public domain (unless the copyright laws have changed regarding public domain materials ).
No, the law was changed so things like that wouldn't happen. As long as you can prove you're the originator of the poem, you'll own the copyright (unless you sign it over to someone else). But you won't have a right to seek compensation/file claims in court unless you file for a copyright with the government. ;\)

(This question is answered in more detail somewhere in the first link I provided, should you want to read more. \:\) )

 Quote:
Wow, I really learned alot from this....thanx guys.....oh and I havta say Derulux....I have done in the past what gyro said about the mailing it to yourself thing, cause thats what someone had told me to do....but, I wont be doin that no more....lol.
Yeah...it used to work until the law was changed, but ever since then, you've had to file for copyright and pay the fee. (The government's all about money. :p ;\) )
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#966871 - 01/07/06 12:09 AM Re: IS IT SAFE?
PiNGPoNG-DT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/31/05
Posts: 49
Loc: California
So, assuming you can prove that you wrote a poem or something and thus have the "copyright" to it, how exactly does the "copyright" help you in any way if you can't seek compensation for someone making profits off of your poem?

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#966872 - 01/07/06 12:42 AM Re: IS IT SAFE?
DCshoesGIRL Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 102
Im kinda confused now, I read this part in the link:
[Copyright is secured automatically when the work is created, and a work is "created" when it is fixed in a copy or phonorecord for the first time. "Copies" are material objects from which a work can be read or visually perceived either directly or with the aid of a machine or device, such as books, manuscripts, sheet musis...]

So does this mean that once I have my music printed out as sheet music(because I can do this on my own on my computer)no copy right is neaded? if this is so, how would I prove I am the original creator of that piece and when I created it if all I have to show is the sheet music itself? If someone tried to steal my music or copy it, they could have just as much proof as me, so what would happen then?
I know im full of alot of questions, but im new to the whole copy right stuff.
_________________________
My music reflects me......and my mood.....[Monica]

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#966873 - 01/07/06 06:14 AM Re: IS IT SAFE?
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5344
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
So, assuming you can prove that you wrote a poem or something and thus have the "copyright" to it, how exactly does the "copyright" help you in any way if you can't seek compensation for someone making profits off of your poem?
It really doesn't...unless you've filed (and received) and officially-paid-for copyright. All copyright establishes is the originator of a particular work, nothing more. ;\)

 Quote:
I know im full of alot of questions, but im new to the whole copy right stuff.
It's all right...most people don't know the particulars of this law anyway, and rely on what they "hear", rather than look it up. ;\)

You can write, "{c}[date], [signature]" to establish copyright in your name on a particular date. Most times, courts would use computer records, publication dates, or other hard-bound ways to assess when a work was created. (Scientific journals, by the way, are considered binding in such legal disputes, and accurate records with hand-written dates are sometimes admissible...which blows my mind.)

This is why it is important to file for an official copyright, because other dates are so disputable. Also, if you ever publish through an organization, they usually take care of this process for you because if your work is successful, there is something like a 99% chance someone will try to sue you to get money, claiming it was their work first. And then the organization's lawyers go to town. ;\)

Many times, independent artists fail not because of their works, but because of the cost of legal battles in court over copyright issues. *shakes head* It's such a shame that that sort of thing happens, but as long as people are greedy, ignorant, or dishonest, we will have need of lawyers....
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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