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#968581 - 05/16/07 02:33 PM Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Greetings everyone:

I am contemplating picking up a major piece (for me), and Liebestraum #3 is high on my priority list (the the other possibility being Chopin's 10/12, which may be beyond my technical ability for a while, at least at proper speed - but I would be game on the study group for that too).


Anybody wish to jump in?

-- I will edit my first post to reference info that is essential to the study group in general --

scores (public domain) are here:
http://www.free-scores.com/download-sheet-music.php?pdf=645
(thanx for the reference, LarryP)
and here:
http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:Search?fulltext=Search&search=liebestraum

I put (temporarily for the benefit of this group only - to minimize possible copyright infringement) a rendition of the piece by Claudio Arrau here:

http://www.box.net/shared/af6fycurqg

My brief analysis of the score and action plan is here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/32/4368.html#000005

-----

So far the group consists of

hopinmad
kawaigirl1
LarryP
Lisztener
tvpiano
YD
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968582 - 05/16/07 02:45 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Euan Morrison Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 1588
Loc: Edinburgh
I am a big fan of this piece, and would also be keen to learn it. However, I have two problems:

1) There seem to be a couple of *really* tough sections which may be far beyond my ability.
2) I'm not very good with the 'study group' idea - so far my track record is joined-3, quit-3!

But I would be willing to give it a shot!

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#968583 - 05/16/07 02:47 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
LarryP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/06
Posts: 105
Loc: West Chester, PA
I downloaded the sheet music....I will give it a try.
Here is the link; http://www.free-scores.com/download-sheet-music.php?pdf=645

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#968584 - 05/16/07 02:58 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
playadom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 1366
Loc: New Jersey
I'm open to trying this. It doesn't look that hard, but the cadenzas might be a little tricky.

I prefer the IMSLP score.

It doesn't have that fake-machine look, but it still shows the melody.
_________________________
Practice makes permanent - Perfect practice makes perfect.

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#968585 - 05/16/07 03:09 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: difficulty of this.

I have heard something like 10 different versions played by famous pianists. Indeed, on much of them the cadenzas sound impossible... ha ha ha

However, I also own a recording that IMHO is one of (if not THE) most beautiful renditions of the Liebestraum by Claudio Arrau, and he plays cadenzas, hm, rather slow. I think it is not much of a copyright infringement if I let you listen to just one song of an old CD that is not available for sale anymore:

http://www.box.net/shared/v7glj52l1y

In fact, the difficult parts for me are in the middle (the jumps), because of my right hand that is, hm, not quite right :-)
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968586 - 05/16/07 03:55 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Wow, 4 of us so far (in less than 1/2 hour)!

Here is a brief analysis of the score:

It consists of the following parts:

I (measures 1-22) Introduction and development of the melody
II (measures 22-24) first cadenza
III (measures 25-35) Correction (thanx, tvpiano!)[/b]Part 3 starts with B major then modulates to C major with the bridge of F9->G7->C with measures 35, 36, 37 respectively.
IV (measures 36-48) Key changes again to C major, this is where the most difficult part starts (big jumps at faster pace)
V (measures 49-56) Key back to A Flat, tempo to "appasionata assai", culminating in
VI (measures 57-58) second cadenza
VII (measures 59-82) final section reverts back to original tempo and is to be played "dolce armonioso" gradually slowing down for the last 15 mesures. Beautiful echo (part of melody?) makes this last portion absolutely ethereal.

So, suggested plan of action is:

1. Learn part I as an introduction of melody and harmony - 2 weeks
2. Learn part V as the most difficult part - 3 weeks
3. Learn part IV as the 2nd most difficult part - 4 weeks (it is longer that part V)
4. Learn part III - 2 weeks
5. Add two cadenzas - 2 weeks.
6. Learn final section (VII) - 3 weeks (it is simple but rather long)
7. Memorize (if didn't do it already), polish - 1 month.

Total: 5 months. Should be good for Fall recital :-)

Any suggestions/modifications?
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968587 - 05/16/07 08:48 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Bach-in-a-Minuet Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/13/07
Posts: 35
Loc: Massachusetts
It's funny to have stumbled onto this thread- I have been working on this piece for about 1 yr, and am playing it in a recital at the end of the month! It has given me FITS throughout, but I think I've gotten it reasonably polished now (amateur-level, that is).
If by "cadenzas" you're referring to the "quasi-cadenzas" in my version, i.e.. the amazingly fast-paced sections that seem impossible to play.... yes, they are very hard, for me the second one was the hardest thing I've ever tried to learn on piano but I finally have it memorized! And no, it won't be at warp speed at this point, but at least I can hit it most of the time.
The section with the large leaps at fast pace is very hard too- just takes lots and lots and lots of practice. Ditto with part 3. Very tricky, even now.
This is my perspective, in any case... it will take tons of practice and it will test your patience, but ultimately if you're determined (and as stubborn as I am) you will get it!
Good luck to all

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#968588 - 05/16/07 08:58 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Kawaigirl1 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 989
Loc: Toronto
I have been wanting to learn this piece for awhile now, and I think this is the perfect opportunity to join into this study group if I may.
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#968589 - 05/17/07 01:29 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
I am totally delighted: I listened to your recital pieces, and judging by your playing, it should be quite doable for all of us - though definitely not a simple task, at least for me.

Euan Morrison, kawaigirl1, LarryP, playadom: Thank you for joining; I promise to try to support you as much as possible. The most help can come in form of suggestions from my teacher who is usually open to me suggesting new pieces (she was fine with my 5th Rhapsody, so I hope this one will be OK with her too - I'm meeting her on Saturday, will know for sure then).

I will try to keep the links to important information in my first post (will edit it frequently) - that way it will be easily accessible. I also asked C7Player to add our group to the pinned "Important information" thread - it is there already - thanx, C7Player! - so we may get some more exposure and new members that way.

I took a more detailed look at cadenzas; it looks like they are much simpler than they sound - it is all parallel movement, just like Hanon exercises :-) So it should be just mechanical memorization - not too technical. I will try to memorize the second (harder one) over the weekend - will post the result (even if it is embarasing) just so that we all have some idea of how difficult it really is.

Other then cadenzas, unless you suggest otherwise, I will start as planned, with section I (measures 1-22). In my estimate it should take about 2 weeks of daily practice with at least 1/2 hour devoted to it - YMMV (your mileage may vary). ETA (Estimated Time of Arrival) for it is, thereore approximately June 3rd (2 weekends from now).

I am really looking forward to it. Again, thanx everyone for joining, and, please spread the word, I am hoping for more of us to join in.
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968590 - 05/17/07 02:03 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Euan Morrison Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 1588
Loc: Edinburgh
Fasten the seatbelts, 'cause this is going to be one bumpy ride!


I have two versions of the score - the regular, and also a simplified.
Is there any advantage to working on the basic version to get each section started quickly, then switching to the full version to complete it?

Or should I just use the full score on its own?

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#968591 - 05/17/07 10:27 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
LarryP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/06
Posts: 105
Loc: West Chester, PA
I downloaded both. The ISMLP looks easier to read.

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#968592 - 05/17/07 10:55 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Euan:

Re: simplified versions.

I dunno. The only simplified version I've heard was that of Clayderman. IIRC (if I remember correctly), that was missing significant portions of the original.

My take on simplified versions is that I use them to sight read (badly, I must admit) new stuff. Like, I read a simplified version of Staadchen (correct spelling?) just to undestand the development of the melody.

On the other hand, knowing simplified version can be benefitial for performances as a possible fallback to recover from flubs...

The first part of Liebestraum (measures 1-22), however, looks simple enough so that I would just study that, and see how it goes... May I suggest that you play through the first 5 measures of the original before committing to a particulare way?
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968593 - 05/17/07 11:00 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
playadom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 1366
Loc: New Jersey
Euan, I'm afraid that the simplified edition might be radically different in some ways, so if you learn that, it might hinder your progress. Of course, it might also be quite useful. You should sit down and compare the two.
_________________________
Practice makes permanent - Perfect practice makes perfect.

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#968594 - 05/17/07 11:13 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Euan Morrison Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 1588
Loc: Edinburgh
Hi - thanks for the advice!

I just checked and indeed my simplified edition is in a different key! So it's been shelved as we speak.

Sitting down to the proper copy now!

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#968595 - 05/17/07 11:17 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: scores

ISMLP has 5 versions, of which I definitely prefer the last one (#05980), for, although it does not have melodic line highlighted (no big deal, as I've heard it so many times!), it 1) does have fingering, and 2) is only 4 pages, so it fits completely on my music deck (I taped the 4 pages together to form a very wide singe page).
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968596 - 05/17/07 06:03 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Euan Morrison Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 1588
Loc: Edinburgh
Hi everyone,

I know this is only day 1, and its a pessimistic attitude, but I'm sadly going to have to drop out of the group/challenge.

I appreciated the piece would be tough - but after really studying the score tonight, it's most definately miles beyond my abilities. I know for sure that those tricky sections would take me months, rather than weeks to learn. I just feel that my time would be better spent learning easier pieces which will take less time and are more nearer my level.

I am sure that when the time is right, I will look into playing Liebestraum, because it is certainly one of my favourite pieces.

I wish you all the best of luck, and look forward to hearing the finished results \:\)

Thanks to everyone,
Euan.

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#968597 - 05/17/07 07:51 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
LarryP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/06
Posts: 105
Loc: West Chester, PA
Euan, I sympathize with you...I have looked it over and fiddled a bit....I am going to give it a go, altho my confidence is wavering, I gotta try for a couple of weeks. We'll see.

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#968598 - 05/17/07 09:37 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Euan:

I also sympathize with you; however there is nothing pessimistic about your attitude: we are all adults here and make our judgements as to where our efforts are best spent. So, you attitude is, in fact, quite commendable.

My attitude is actually quite optimistic: the piece is definitely difficult, and will take months to master. However, this is exactly the reason for the study group: to support each other in a difficult undertaking, and to have fun in the process!

If you visit this thread once in a while, you are welcome to listen to our laughable 1st attempts too: this way you'll know you made the right decision :-)
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968599 - 05/17/07 09:58 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
 Quote:
Fasten the seatbelts, 'cause this is going to be one bumpy ride!
:D One of my all-time favorite movies. Ha! Love it. Bette Davis was just fabulous.

...
"De Witt escorts Eve into the party, leaving Margo at the stairs drinking another martini. Getting more drunk [with alcoholic embalming fluid] and morbid, she prefers to hear only sad tunes on the piano as she sits on the piano bench next to the piano player. She insists that he play the same sad song, Liebestraum, for the fifth "straight time." Bill joins her and asks about viewing the body - a comment about the funeral atmosphere hanging over the supposedly 'happy birthday' party. Margo is depressed about her age (in contrast to Eve's youthful vitality) and has remained that way to spite Bill:

Bill: Many of your guests have been wondering when they may be permitted to view the body. Where has it been laid out?
Margo: It hasn't been laid out. We haven't finished with the embalming. As a matter of fact, you're looking at it - the remains of Margo Channing, sitting up. It is my last wish to be buried sitting up.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#968600 - 05/18/07 12:55 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Actually, in the movie it was "a bumpy night," at least that's how I remember it - am I wrong?
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968601 - 05/20/07 12:07 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
OK, time to deliver on my first promise here.

I spent the whole Saturday obsessed with 2nd cadenza. It really is not that bad, just mechanical memorization (the cadenza is mostly just a downward chromatic scale in two intervals, sixths and seconds, played with both hands). The result is here:

http://www.box.net/shared/v7glj52l1y

It is not quite up to tempo (and probably will never be up to tempo as played by some concert pianist - but I'll probably manage Arrau's speed), lacks any kind of dynamics etc, but the notes are, hopefully, right :-)

This is outside of the proposed learnign plan; I just did that as supposedly the hardest part of the piece in order to judge if this is at all reasonable.

I also tried playing through some other parts: I must tell you, this is a major undertaking! But, ultimately doable by any "intermediate" player.

Suggestion re: learning the cadenza. The first few hours were in vain. Then the light came on: use rhythmic pattern. I started making heavy accent on every 4th interval, and it just came together. I used pretty much indicated fingering except for the slow ending - there I just played whatever was convenient for me.

In the other part of cadenza (not chromatic scale) I had to divert to parallel play. Another few hours and I am almost there!

Potential new members: if you where ever scared to start working on this piece because you heard lightning fast cadenzas, and though you'd never manage them, please, listen to the Arrau rendition (link in the beginning of this thread) - it is much slower that usually played, but very beautiful.

This is fun!
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968602 - 05/20/07 09:00 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Bach-in-a-Minuet Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/13/07
Posts: 35
Loc: Massachusetts
Yuri,
Excellent job on that 2nd cadenza! It took me MUCH longer to get it to that point, and even now I sometimes stumble.
You will master this piece much more quickly than I did. Looking forward to the rest! \:\)

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#968603 - 05/20/07 11:57 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
Yuri,

I am always in awe with this piece, well this one kind of above my level, but I could not resist the temptation. I am in!
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968604 - 05/20/07 12:27 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Welcome, tvpiano!

The cool thing about this piece is that it can be played much slower than usual, and still sound beautiful, so, even if it is above your level, you can learn it, enjoy playing it at a slower tempo, and bring it up to speed as your level increases.

Today I am starting to work on the first section, as planned (measures 1-22). I now see that it has some problematic jumps that need to be mastered :-) (towards the end). Will post progress reports (at least weekly, but maybe more often).
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968605 - 05/20/07 03:30 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
Thank you Yuri, how do you approach the first section, each hand separately first?
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tvpiano

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#968606 - 05/20/07 03:56 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
I always do this:

1. Play through very slowly with both hand once so that you see where hands collide.

2. Study hands separately until you can play reasonably well, and then

3. Join hands together and bring up tp tempo.

BTW, there seem to be some places in part one when hands separation is not quite clear: I seem to play with left hand where right is indicated in the score and vice versa - I'll comment on this later when it is more clear to me.

BTW2, the left hand is rather thin here, so stage (2) above basically means practicing right hand only...
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968607 - 05/20/07 11:00 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
The last C note of the melody (middle voice) of measure #2, I am not sure should it be played with RH or LH? thanks
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968608 - 05/20/07 11:44 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
tvpiano:

I play it with left, with right it is much more difficult as it needs to be separated (louder) than the simultaneous Bb.

Here is a bried description of my fingering/hand separation (I tend to avoid jumps where they are not absolutely necessary):

I play the first 6 measures as indicated in the score, and then, in measure 7 I play C with right hand (to avoid a jump of left from Ab to C).

Then again as indicated in measures 7,8, then in measure 9 I play last Eb with 1st finger instead of indicated 2nd and in measure 10, again to avoid jump, play first melodic F with 2nd finger of right hand (as opposite from indicated jump of left hand from Bb to F).

Then as indicated up to measure 13, where I play first melodic Ab with 1st finger of RH (again avoiding jump). Same story with first C of measure 15, and then the jumps become unavoidable :-( , so the rest I play as indicated.

Hope this helps,
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968609 - 05/21/07 12:00 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
Yuri, it does help a lot, I got a pencil and taking note right in the sheet music. Thanks.
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968610 - 05/21/07 08:54 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Greetings:

As my initial enthusiasm seems to still be present, here is my first take on the part I, measures 1-22. The problematic sports are jumps (however small they are)m the rest is pretty straightforward. Will take looonnngggg time to get this to performance level (tempo and dynamics)...

http://www.box.net/shared/y3anr39ln1

Kind regards, everyone,
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968611 - 05/21/07 09:48 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Funky_Fred Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 16
I just wanted everyone here to know that I will not be working on this piece. I like to play pop piano, songs that I can sing or hum along to (at least in my head, not out loud.)

But, I did want to share a gift with you. In 1994, Neil Sedaka recorded a CD, where he put words to several classical themes. Personally, I feel it is a beautiful CD to listen and relax to.

A little background on Neil Sedaka is necessary for those who may not be familar with him. This is taken from his web site:

"It was classical music that shaped the musicianship of the young Neil Sedaka. At the age of eight, he had already begun his intensive classical piano training at the prestigious Juilliard School of Music, practicing up to five hours a day. And by the time Sedaka was sixteen, Artur Rubinstein voted him one of the finest classical pianists in New York City high schools. Classical music has always remained a passion for Sedaka, and though he once considered earning a doctorate in the field, it was not where he chose to forge his legend. Since his classmates were listening to pop and rock and roll playing on the radio, and being eager to gain the acceptance of his peers, Sedaka began to play the latest music at parties." The rest, as they say, is history...

Without further ado, here is just Neil and his piano, playing his "pop" version of Liebestraume, which he entitled " There Is A Place".

http://www.box.net/shared/xgaukest9g

Now, some of you might consider this sacreligious. But I would like to know how you feel about this rendition, especially from a critical viewpoint. Above all, I hope you all enjoy it, as I enjoy sharing it with you. At the very least, you may find yourself humming Neil's beautiful lyrics as you practice this piece....

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#968612 - 05/22/07 01:17 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
Yuri,
It sounds great for only a few days, with me I will take a week if I can get to that point. Thanks for sharing.

Funky Fred,
Neil does have the double talents with piano and his voice, very romantic indeed.
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968613 - 05/22/07 01:25 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
gerg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 1651
Loc: Houston, TX
Yuri,

Sounds very impressive for having worked just a few days.

Are you getting there just beforehand on the jumps?

Rest assured, once you become more at ease the piece, the keys will sort of "pop" into place in your brain right beforehand, no matter how far the jump, and you'll be making them accurately.
_________________________
http://www.ecital.net
Wikicital: A collaborative effort to build a knowledgebase of classical music history combined with examples. Your chance to both perform and write...

Don't click here!

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#968614 - 05/22/07 10:38 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
 Quote:
Originally posted by Funky_Fred:


Without further ado, here is just Neil and his piano, playing his "pop" version of Liebestraume, which he entitled " There Is A Place".

http://www.box.net/shared/xgaukest9g
[/b]
Thank you very much; indeed a wonderful rendition!

 Quote:

Now, some of you might consider this sacreligious. But I would like to know how you feel about this rendition, especially from a critical viewpoint.
[/b]
Sacreligious \:D Long gone are the days of my snobbish youth (back than I indeed could have smirked while pressing my nose high up with my right index finger

After all Libestraum is a song - love song, so this is entirely appropriate. Love the voice!

Thanx!
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968615 - 05/22/07 10:45 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
 Quote:
Originally posted by gerg:

Sounds very impressive for having worked just a few days.
[/b]
Thanx! It's just a progress report...

 Quote:

Are you getting there just beforehand on the jumps?
[/b]
No, there are some jumps in the part I am playing already, just not octavial. So, I just play through then in as liquid motion as I can, starting to move my elbow a second before the jump.

 Quote:

Rest assured, once you become more at ease the piece, the keys will sort of "pop" into place in your brain right beforehand, no matter how far the jump, and you'll be making them accurately. [/b]
Hope so \:D
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968616 - 05/24/07 02:51 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
Yuri,

I was reluctant to open this thread because I have a love/hate relationship with Liszt's Liebestraum No. 3.

Here is a brief accounting of my piano playing experience before further explaining the preceding paragraph:

Lessons as a boy 10-12 years old, self-taught on and off (mostly off) until stopping in 1990. I resumed playing in August 2006. I started lessons again in late December 2006. Lessons have now ended for the summer.

During the times that I was actively playing and learning pieces, I endeavored to learn the Liebestraum. This was approximately 35 years ago when in my early 30s. It is probably considered the most romantic classical work of all time.

Last August, during my newfound appreciation for the instrument, I began drawing on memory to recall, gradually four pieces and one of those is the piece under discussion. I got it back under my fingers (not recital ready, however) before again putting it on the back burner to take on List's Consolation No. 3 and since then Scriabin's Prelude Op. 16 No. 1.

My love/hate feelings about the Liebestraum has nothing to do with the beauty of the music or my desire to play it, but with my technical inability to play the beautiful cadenzas that are the defining stamp used by Liszt to forever distinguish himself from other composers. Since opening this thread two days ago I have gone back to try to get the major portions of the piece under my fingers, again. I believe that within the next two weeks I will have it (along with some simpler transitions where the difficult cadenzas occur) back to the shape it was in before dropping it to learn new pieces. I plan to record it when I get it presentable.

My purpose for this prattle is to help you determine whether I am a proper candidate to join in the study group, or, to determine if you think that I may be too far along than others in the group because I am not starting from scratch, even though I do not play the cadenzas.

Franz Liszt is, imo, the most harmonic of all the romantic composers and virtuosi. Unfortunately, far too many of his works are beyond the abilities of the less than concert capable pianists. He is my musical inspiration, thus the reason for my user name and avatar. I will leave this link to my entry in recital No. 5 in February. It is my rendition of Liszt’s Consolation No. 3.

http://www.box.net/shared/f0oj3on91a

Please share your thoughts about me joining the study group.

Sincerely,

Lisztener
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#968617 - 05/24/07 07:44 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
LarryP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/06
Posts: 105
Loc: West Chester, PA
I don't think I can keep up with the group. I am finding it difficult to get the time to put into this. I will continue to work on it, and post how I am making out, at a slower pace.(If that's ok). I need to put more time into it than I can set aside at this time.

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#968618 - 05/24/07 12:34 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lisztener:

My purpose for this prattle is to help you determine whether I am a proper candidate to join in the study group, or, to determine if you think that I may be too far along than others in the group because I am not starting from scratch, even though I do not play the cadenzas.
[/b]
Lisztener:

Not only you are the proper candidate, but you would certainly be a great asset to this group - that is if you are willing to put up with the slow progress of the rest of us. I originally envisioned as a 5-6 months ordeal; my current estimate is that for me the initial period of getting the score into fingers may in fact be shorter, but that the polishing stage may take much longer... As usual, YMMV (your mileage may vary); I would consider the group to be more informal. In fact, the main reason for this group, IMHO, is that we exchange ideas/suggestions for parts that other participants find difficult. (For me, for example, cadenzas do not seem that difficult, but the octavial jumps definitely are).

 Quote:

Franz Liszt is, imo, the most harmonic of all the romantic composers and virtuosi. Unfortunately, far too many of his works are beyond the abilities of the less than concert capable pianists. He is my musical inspiration, thus the reason for my user name and avatar.
[/b]
We are in violent agreement here \:D Did you notice that my avatar is also the portrait of Liszt (only more like my age)?

Should we start a special thread for Liszt Devotees???

 Quote:

I will leave this link to my entry in recital No. 5 in February. It is my rendition of Liszt’s Consolation No. 3.

http://www.box.net/shared/f0oj3on91a

Please share your thoughts about me joining the study group.
[/b]
Than you; that's a great rendition of Consolation No. 3!

We would be honored to have you join us here
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968619 - 05/24/07 12:41 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
 Quote:
Originally posted by LarryP:
I don't think I can keep up with the group. I am finding it difficult to get the time to put into this. I will continue to work on it, and post how I am making out, at a slower pace.(If that's ok). I need to put more time into it than I can set aside at this time. [/b]
LarryP: Please, don't get any wrong ideas! We are here for the exact reason of supporting, not intimidating each others! There is no time pressure whatsoever - so there is no such thing as "slower pace" - I promise to stay with the group for as long as there is at least one interested person still learning the piece (or until my internet connection is cut of because I stopped working and cannot pay my bills anymore \:D ).
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968620 - 05/24/07 01:15 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
Lisztener,
I am ditto with Yuri, and very glad to have you here to support this group. I am listenling of your Liszt’s Consolation No. 3 now, and it is wonderful! thanks for sharing.
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tvpiano

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#968621 - 05/24/07 01:36 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3405
Loc: US
Hi Yuri,
I'd love to join a Liszt Devotee thread! As a performer, composer and human being, he was incredibly gifted and so generous. I'm not working on the Liebestraume, but starting Consolation #3 and struggling with the 3 vs 4 rhythm..
I love listening to his music even if I can't play it!

Sophia

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#968622 - 05/24/07 08:07 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
Yuri,[/b]

Thank you for adding me to the Liszt Liebestraum 3 study group. I want to caution everyone not to have unrealistic expectations for my performance once I get it recorded and posted. The times that I’ve had a clean performance in the past have been very few.

I'm listening to your recital performance of the Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody No. 5 as I write this post. Your playing of this rhapsody is magnificent. Based upon this performance, I see no problem with you mastering the Liebestraum. Wow, this is beautiful!

I'm happy that you formed the "ABF Liszt Devotees Society." Would it be asking too much of you to post a short history of your piano study on the Devotees thread? I believe this will lend enthusiasm for the thread and perhaps encourage others to post background information as well.

Once again, thank you for your prompt reply and the inclusion in the group. Pardon me for the oversight in not paying attention to your avatar. At both ages of these avatars, it’s no wonder Liszt made the ladies swoon. ;\)

sophial,[/b]

I'll post some information to you concerning the Consolation 3 in the Devotees thread.

kawaigirl1,[/b]

I'm excited to see your name in the list. With your keyboard knowledge and playing prowess, we will all be beneficiaries of your counsel.

tvpiano,[/b]

Thank you for your kind comments.

I wish you and all others in the group much enjoyment with this magnificent work of art by the greatest pianist of his time.

Sincerely,

Lisztener
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#968623 - 05/25/07 08:44 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Kawaigirl1 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 989
Loc: Toronto
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lisztener:

kawaigirl1,[/b]

I'm excited to see your name in the list. With your keyboard knowledge and playing prowess, we will all be beneficiaries of your counsel.

Lisztener [/QB]
Hi Lisztener, I'm so happy you had joined in and in fact I will need all the Liszt fans out there to help and guide me through this piece.

Just to report my progress, I'm still trying to learn the notes. The version I'm using is from the free-score.com. I just found this version easier to read where the notes are not all cramed together. I'm starting on the last 2 lines of p5 and the 1st line of p.6 as well as last line of p 2 and first line of p3. This is a very challenging piece and I'm going to say I will be under the slower group in terms of progress.
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#968624 - 05/27/07 12:02 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Greetings:

I am a bit puzzled, what does "poco allegro con affetto" mean in plain terms? I mean, as in b=xxx? This numerically oriented soul (me) is having difficulty translating "a bit fast with affect" into numbers...

Any guidelines for proper tempo in differnt parts?
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968625 - 05/27/07 12:33 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
 Quote:
Originally posted by YD:
Greetings:

I am a bit puzzled, what does "poco allegro con affetto" mean in plain terms? I mean, as in b=xxx? This numerically oriented soul (me) is having difficulty translating "a bit fast with affect" into numbers...

Any guidelines for proper tempo in differnt parts? [/b]
The reason I ask is that I was bringing the first portion up to speed and got a passing comment "is it really supposed to be played that fast?" So I turned the metronome on and measured my tempo at quarter=180. It sounds fine to my ear, but maybe I just got too much time with this piece and am out of touch with the outside world.
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Yuri
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#968626 - 05/27/07 02:49 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
kawaigirl1,

If there is anything I can do to help, please let me know. I'm excited to be in this group and look forward to getting my memory in high gear to post something, soon, so all of you will know how I interpret the piece. I'm glad that you found some sheets that are spread out so you can read them without squinting because the notes are so close together. I'm certainly eager to hear you get this piece up to performance level (no pressure intended) because I know how sensitive your touch is, and to have you playing this beautiful melody will, I'm sure, be a joy to all of us.

Good luck with your practice and remember it's when you least expect it that you have a breakthrough where you jump to a new level of practice in a piece. I'm sure you know this, but I want to help keep you motivated just as I'm sure you want all in the group to stay motivated.

Best of luck,

Lisztener
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#968627 - 05/27/07 04:18 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
Yuri,

I always stay up late unless I have something planned for the early A.M. that forces me to retire at an earlier hour. Before taking early retirement in 2001, my work schedule for twenty-eight years was beginning 5:30-6:00 P.M. and ending 2:00-2:30 A.M. (newspaper bidness) Then I would get home and have to unwind for a couple hours before going to bed. Therefore, over the years my metabolic clock has made me a night person. I practice the piano between 7:00-800 P.M. to 10:00-11:00 P.M. My wife and I live in a condominium with common walls between our neighbors on both sides. We have concrete walls that do a good job of noise insulation and I've asked the neighbors if my practicing bothers them and they all say, no. However, there are times that I feel they are being kind, so, tonight I've been over in the digital piano and synthesizer forum trying to get some info on buying a good digital that I can practice on with headphones all through the night if I wish.

I've been procrastinating all day (Saturday) and still have twelve comments to write on the last twelve performers in the most recent recital.

I did not intend to tell you about my sleeping habits, but there you go. Once my mind begins to wander, everything and everywhere is a possibility.

Saturday evening I got in some good practice time with the Liebestraum. I'm not too far away from the dreaded "Red Dot" on my Zoom H4 recorder. I have almost all of it under my fingers (sans cadenzas as you are aware) and the time schedule looks good for maybe less than two weeks before feeling comfortable recording it. Last evening I broke from my usual habit of just waiting for my brain to remember and associate my fingers to the proper notes. I got into the piano bench and retrieved the music for this beauty. It's been so many years that the notes look like ancient hieroglyphics, but there are a couple places that I couldn't get back into memory so I looked at the score and it was (as should be) a helpful thing to do. Wow, I am running on and on. My original purpose was to bring up your puzzlement about the meaning of "poco allegro con affetto."

I have a wonderful link for you and all to a site with much information on musical notation:

http://www.dolmetsch.com/musicalsymbols.htm

Coincidentally, I looked up that very phrase. I didn't find the phrase as noted in the piece, but by putting together the words I came up with an interpretation that reads "Rather quick with emotion." I don't know how quick that may be and I don't play with a metronome. It's 3:30 A.M. here, so I can't go downstairs and play a passage with the metronome or the police will be here post haste. Your setting of 180 sounds fast to me, however, over the years I've heard so many different tempos that my conclusion is to play it at a dreamy pace where the dream has time to develop rather than jumping in and racing as though a posse is on the heels of your horse as you flee through the moonlit woods trying to escape them. I believe you stated earlier that many tempi are permissible and sound good with this particular piece. I would rather take it soft and reasonable than hurry it like a Lang Lang or others of his ilk who play as fast as they can trying to impress an audience with their so-called virtuosity. If this is Love's dream, then I want mine to sound dreamy and lovely. Sorry I can't help any more than this. If I don't post my own, soon, for you to gauge me, I'll look for a piece that is in the public domain that's close to my preference and I'll post it.

My goodness, look at the hour. My recital comments will have to wait for another day.

I have a lovely dream to contemplate with my eyelids closed.

After hearing your Hungarian Rhapsody, I'm confident you will find a tempo to fit your love dream state as well.

Have a good day,

Lisztener

PS I happened onto another thread last night where you introduced yourself and spoke of your hand injury. I am extremely happy that your little daughter inspired you to take a chance again after twelve years. The good book speaks of this in a passage: Isaiah 11:6
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.[/b]
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#968628 - 05/27/07 01:00 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Progress report:

Well, this is where I am now: I can play 1st part at pretty much any tempo up to 180. I recorded myself several times, and indeed, as Lisztener suggested, 180 sounds a bit too fast, but not by much. So far the optimal tempo for measures 1-22 to my ear seems to be about 150. Here is my rendition from practice session (a few missed notes, but in a piece of this length I probably will never play it note-perfect, so this is not too far from the best I'll ever be at this):

http://www.box.net/shared/441efi4uci

Libestraume is sure wide open for interpretation; I always hear is a sort of song of joy; I've heard some say that it is a sad piece - not to my ears!

Lisztener: Thanx for the kind words. I am eagerly awaiting your recording. I want to comment on the digital - will do so later, as I have to run now (hear "Daddy, daddy, we are in the car already!!!")
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Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968629 - 05/27/07 01:43 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
Yuri,

Your play is beautiful just as I anticpated. Your tempo may be a little faster than mine. but it sure isn't too fast to miss the beautiful melody. Thank you for posting this section. You are a fast learner, my friend. If I can get a good take, not perfect, I'll try to upload it and make it available for constructive criticism later on, today.

Have fun with the family,

Lisztener
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#968630 - 05/27/07 10:00 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
Yuri,

Your take of first part is lively, for my progress report, I can only play first part in supper slow mode, just too slow to post any recording. Good job man.
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tvpiano

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#968631 - 05/28/07 01:12 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
tvpiano,

Good to hear that you are making progress even though it may be slower than you wish. Hang in there!

Lisztener
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#968632 - 05/28/07 02:07 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
I've been working on the Liebestraume No. 3 again for the past six days. Sunady evening I recorded it and heard myself play it in a recorded state for the first time in my life. I bought a Zoom H4 in October, 2006 after letting the Liebestraume fade out of memory. Here is a link to the rough version I recorded last evening:

http://www.box.net/shared/kxbrjh5bss

I intended to cut everything away except the first section, but then reconsidered and uploaded the entire piece with its numerous mistakes.

I'm seriously considering putting some hours into the cadenzas after I get the major sections better controlled. The cadenzas will give me fits, I'm sure, but if I don't give them a serious effort now, in this study group, I may never again have the motivation to do so.

I hope you enjoy the portions of the recording that are not hacked to pieces.

Have fun everyone,

Lisztener
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#968633 - 05/28/07 02:13 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
tvpiano:

I am sure we'll all have difficult time with some portions of it. I, for once, am absolutely terrified by the parts IV and V. Part I was particularly easy for me as I played tons of Bach preludes (I played almost all of the WTC eons ago), and right hand arpeggios are something that is still deeply embedded in my fingers.

Also, a little suggestion: don't push tempo too much at this stage. As long as you can play it super slowly with correct rhythmic pattern so that the melody stands out from accompaniment, your task for stage 1 is pretty much accomplished - as you'll play this part at least once daily while working on the other parts, it'll come up to speed eventually. Are you memoryzing this as you study? I find it much easier to bring things up to speed once I memorized it completely.

Lisztener:

Coming from you the review of my playing is flatterings. Your own playing of Scriabin was IMHO way more musical. Really, I mean it.

Now, I promised to comment on digital. When I restarted my piano playing, I had Roland digital (13 years old, KR-something), which was quite inadequate, especially with my daughter starting her piano lessons (I wanted her hands to feel the right keyboard from the start). So, I went looking for a piano. Due to space constraints, I was looking for uprights only. After browsing for a while, I ended up liking ab upright Bohemia. But, right at that moment I saw a Roland HP-7 in the same showroom, and, without any intent on buying it, just played a few chords. Wow! The keyboard touch was way better than Bohemia, more like a grand piano. So, I took a pause, did lots of research, tried many digitals, and ended up buying Kawai MP8 + good speakers (Yamaha HS80M) + good headphones (Sennheiser HD-280Pro). I could not be more satisfied. Not only I can play when everybody is asleep, but I actually enjoy the keyboard more than the two acoustics I also play (Yamaha upright and Kawai grand) - I play those at my teacher's studio. I must tell you: digital has come long a way. So, if you can afford it, please, do yourself a favor, and get a digital - I am almost sure it will significantly enhance your piano life.
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968634 - 05/28/07 01:30 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
Yuri,

Thank you for the heads up on the digital piano. Now, you have me concerned that I'll abandon my recently purchased acoustic in favor of the digital. I can't let that happen. Seriously, as you mention the advancements in digital keyboard technology have given the good ones a beautiful piano tonal quality. I still believe that the acoustic holds sway overall because of the harmonics generated by the strings acting in concert within the case. Digital sampling cannot, at this point, imo, match the richness achieved on a good acoustic. I am aware, however, that with the feature set and the convenience of a digital one could spend many hours with learning and entertainment.

I'll keep you informed about my decision. A recommendation coming from you to get a good digital with good speakers and headphones cannot be ignored.

Thank you,

Lisztener
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#968635 - 05/28/07 04:53 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
LarryP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/06
Posts: 105
Loc: West Chester, PA
Yuri, thanks for the encouragement. As you can see, its been afew days since my last post, I have been away for 5 days with the grandson. One more day, and things will be back to normal. Then I can get back to work.

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#968636 - 05/29/07 12:35 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
Lisztener and Yuri
Thanks for your encouragement and advice, update progress: part 1 is getting better but the jump LH is till hit and miss, I like to practice my sight read, so the reason to delay the memorized process. I plan to post part 1 recording sometime next week if I am lucky. Follow your advice, I begin to touch part 2, and a few measure of part 3, HS and very slowly.
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tvpiano

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#968637 - 05/29/07 01:51 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
Hi all,

I'm so glad that I retrieved the score from my piano bench. Aside from not having it polished in the recording I posted here, I see quite a few instances of wrong notes or incorrect execution in my long ago memorized version. I've been pencilling in the English equivalent to the Italian notation which has led me to go back to the beginning of the sheets to review and change those badly memorized portions.

Hang in there boys and girls, ;\)

Lisztener
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#968638 - 05/29/07 04:41 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lisztener:
I intended to cut everything away except the first section, but then reconsidered and uploaded the entire piece with its numerous mistakes.
[/b]
I am so glad you uploaded entire piece, despite it obviously being work in progress. Your playing of 1st part (up to 1st cadenza) is close to perfect; the rest needs some minor polishing/speeding up; however, even in its present form your play does convey your style and expression pretty well.

You are way ahead of the rest of us; your playing is a reminder that it is a rather significant undertaking.

 Quote:

I'm seriously considering putting some hours into the cadenzas after I get the major sections better controlled. The cadenzas will give me fits, I'm sure, but if I don't give them a serious effort now, in this study group, I may never again have the motivation to do so.
[/b]
You'll get these cadenzas; I am positive. They are not much harder than the rest. Please forgive me if the suggestions below sound trivial. Here is how I will approach the 1st cadenza (I was not planning on learning it until much later in the study, after sections III, IV and V):

EDIT: Content removed (superseeded by further commentary below) to avoid confusion.[/b]

 Quote:

I hope you enjoy the portions of the recording that are not hacked to pieces.
[/b]
I certainly did; thank you very much!
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968639 - 05/29/07 08:04 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
Yuri,

Thank you so much for your encouraging words. It's comforting to have someone with your expertise as part of this group. Your graphic of the fingereing is fantastic and I hope that you get a chance to post the revised version for sections 4,5,and 6 at your earliest convenience.

It's very gracious of you to take the time out of a busy day to help us.

We appreciate your interest and the motivation you provide,

Sincerely,

Lisztener

PS I'm off to practice for a couple hours, I hope.
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#968640 - 05/29/07 11:35 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
playadom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 1366
Loc: New Jersey
Well, I've decided that I no longer wish to continue working on this piece. It's not that it's too hard for me, I just don't have the time.

Due to certain comments received in the past week, I've decided to quit anything difficult that I am working on in order to clean up sloppy technique.
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#968641 - 05/30/07 01:04 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Just FYI: I edited my mistakes out of the post above on first cadenza; will comment more tomorrow morning (I am falling asleep - been working since 5am today).
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968642 - 05/30/07 01:51 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
Hi Yuri,

I don't wish to complicate your day, but I'm afraid that the Kawai MP8 is too large for the space beside my computer. It is also, I'm afraid, too heavy for me since I've had back surgery twice and I'll need to put it up and take it down on a daily basis. What is your opinion of the Roland RD-700SX for realistic acoustic feel and sound?

Take your time answering. We're not in a race. Your rest and health are important to keeping that beautiful play for your loving family and admiring study group. \:\)

Lisztener
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#968643 - 05/30/07 02:04 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
playadom,

I'm sorry for having to call 'em as I hears 'em. Yours was an exceptional and difficult decision for me to make concerning the recital comments I made.

I'm truly sorry to see you leave the group. I hoped that studying this piece would be a means for us to share a common goal and get to know each other better, but a man has to do what he has to do. I respect your decision even though I hope you will return, soon.

Good fortune to you,

Lisztener
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#968644 - 05/30/07 02:21 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
tvpiano,

Way to go! It sounds as though you are having a good time learning this beautiful work. It will take a good chunk of time, but once you get it under your fingers and up to a level that pleases you, don't do as I did and forget it. Of all the pieces I've ever tried to play, this one, when I sometimes got it right, gave me a thrill like nothing else I've played except my all time favorite, the first movement of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata. I want to repeat and get even better with the Liebestraume 3, now, than in the past.

Let's keep plugging along and one day we'll be proud of our accomplishment.

Lisztener
_________________________


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#968645 - 05/30/07 11:45 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
Thank Yuri for the pic with the first cadenza, it does help. Your pic shows different fingering comparing to mine, I am thinking about trying yours to see which one is better.

Lisztenner,
Very impressed by someone can play from begin to end, you will polish this piece in no time.
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968646 - 05/30/07 02:32 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Yuri's guide to 1st cadenza[/b]
Warning: Your Mileage May Vary

Here is the cadenza in its entire beauty:



I split it into 4 parts (plus whatever is left, which is just a tremolo of a sort). My way of approaching it is this:

1) Realize that first part (1,2,3) is very repetitive, with pattern repeating itself every 6 notes (with transpositions by octave).

2) Now, you need to learn to play succession of 6 intervals that cover sections 1,2,3.

3) For now I ignore the slurs in the score - the cadenza is played with pedal pressed all from beginning to end, so slurs are almost irrelevant (not quite - more on this later). Since the intervals are kind of tough to play legato, I play the notes rather short - a sort of marcato/staccato. Will cycle through the sequence of 6 intervals ad nauseum until the fingers remember the sequence (hands separately first, then hands together). Will vary speed - slow, fast, medium, etc. - that way I make sure that even if I stumble mid-cadenza later I can recover (fingers remember different tempo passages differently, at least my fingers).

4) Once the fingers know the sequence, I can join the 3 ascending 6-note sequences into the first part of cadenza (1-2-3).

5) Now, the second part of cadenza. It is also somewhat repetitive, but there are these breaks every 6 notes that provide some refreshing variety. Makes it much harder for fingers to remember. Thus, more analysis of this portion is beneficial.

6) Here is my understanding of it. The part 4 of the cadenza is just a slightly broken descending Ab minor scale played in thirds (actually, double- thirds, as right hand part is also thirds). So, to make sure I can play it broken, I fix it (remove breaks), and learn to play just this scale. Like this:



The fingering suggested is OK, but I find a simpler fingering (with 5th finger replaced with 4th, as I indicated in parenthesis) easier to remember.

7) Play this descending scale ad nauseum, varying speed, until fingers memorized it.
It should sound like this:

http://www.box.net/shared/ke2k5pdryx

This is really, just right hand exercise, but add left hand at some point to make sure they are synchronized. Then play the scale starting at any note.

8) Once you learned to play the scale (and you did learn to play it starting at any note!), you can easily introduce the breaks. Almost done!

8) Now, as promised more on slur signs. In cadenzas like this, that is played with pedal pressed, the slur sign usually means some sort of micro-phrasing, i.e. subtle accent on the first note under the slur. Once I have cadenza memorized and under the fingers, I will start paying attention to the accents as suggested by the slurs. This is very minor, however, and is more of an expression than technique.

Hope this helps. Good luck everyone. I will follow my directions over the weekend and post the results.
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968647 - 05/30/07 03:06 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
Thanks again for the detail instruction, I am also found to be esier about using 4-2 instead of 5-2 fingering.
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968648 - 05/30/07 03:35 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
tvpiano:

5-2 fingering seem to be standard here for the following reason: finger 4 and 3 are very interdependent, so I have a feeling that if you really intend to play it lightning fast, 5-2 will be better in the end (however weird it may feel at the moment). If, however, the speed of Arrau is all you ever need, 4-2 is easier to remember as then the fingering is reduced to (42)-(31) repetition. My personal take is that Arrau sounds pretty nice and I'd rather spend my time on other pieces than fight with the inconvenient fingering (in my particular case, the my right hand is not quite well, and will never be, which is yet another argument for 4-2).

Lisztener:

When I was choosing the keyboard, the differences between Roland RD700SX, MP8 and Yamaha CP300 were relatively minor. IMHO, Roland had better sound, MP8 - best keyboard, and Yamaha was a kind of compromise (but I found keyboard to be way too heavy - it would give me tendonitis in no time).

OT: What's the story with these heavy keyboards - why do so many people, especially beginners, like the keyboards that make it virtually impossible to play fast passages???? I am puzzled here! If fast runs is what you want to do eventually (Think Liszt!), stay away from these fancy "Heavy acoustic feel" keyboards (e.g. Yamaha).

To summarize, I see nothing wrong with Roland, the keyboard is light and the sound is great! Given your back problems, I wouldn't even think about MP8 - I can barely lift it myself (and I am rather athletic), unless it will be stationary. CA-X is a lighter alternative (same keyboard), but does not have the string resonances, etc. Sounds like Roland is the way to go here. Why don't you try it; Sam Ash (over by the Northland Mall) should stock them (did I tell you I lived in Ohio for a few years?).
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968649 - 05/30/07 11:44 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
brazospiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/14/06
Posts: 307
Loc: College Station, TX
So how hard is this piece? Is it much harder than the Entertainer? It took me 8 weeks to do the Entertainer... It is a beautiful piece though.

I was also thinking about doing Hungarian Rhapsody #5 next instead...
_________________________
Wade

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#968650 - 05/31/07 12:59 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
 Quote:
Originally posted by brazospiano:
So how hard is this piece? Is it much harder than the Entertainer? It took me 8 weeks to do the Entertainer... It is a beautiful piece though.

I was also thinking about doing Hungarian Rhapsody #5 next instead... [/b]
This is my opinion, YMMV:

Both liebestraume and HR5 are (a lot) harder than Enterteiner. Fast passages (including ovtavial jumps) are the main difficulty for me. Now that I am more familiar with Liebestraume, I'd say it is easier than HR5, because it is less varied, and the rhythmic pattern is more uniform.

That said, I think anybody who can learn Entertainer can learn Liebestraume, it'll just take longer. My original time estimate is about 5 months; I think you'd manage that, but on the other hand there is no hurry...
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968651 - 05/31/07 01:37 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
 Quote:
Originally posted by YD:


To summarize, I see nothing wrong with Roland, the keyboard is light and the sound is great! Given your back problems, I wouldn't even think about MP8 - I can barely lift it myself (and I am rather athletic), unless it will be stationary. CA-X is a lighter alternative (same keyboard), but does not have the string resonances, etc. Sounds like Roland is the way to go here. Why don't you try it; Sam Ash (over by the Northland Mall) should stock them (did I tell you I lived in Ohio for a few years?). [/b]
Thank you so much for your help with deciding on a digital. Wednesday afternoon and early evening I spent in the showrooms of Sam Ash and Graves Piano. At Sam Ash, the two pianos I played were the Yamaha CP300 and The Roland RD700SX. It didn't take long to rule out the Yamaha, but I played the Roland for quite a few minutes. I mentioned to the sales rep that there was a distinct change in color beginning in next to last treble register. In addition, I found that some notes were brighter than others...I had this problem with my acoustic until having it voiced. I thanked the rep and went to Graves where they didn't have an MP8, but they had a Kawai console with the same engine as the MP8. Wow! The touch and uniformity of sound up and down the keyboard takes the Yammie and the Roland out of consideration. I want the MP8 regardless of its weight. It sounds beautiful and the dynamic range is super. I now understand why you chose this for yourself. The grandson of the owner asked where I found the price I quoted him from the internet. I couldn't remember at the moment but I saw a dealer's ad on the web last night for $1895. He's going to call me tomorrow and tell me if he can match that price. We'll see.

I wonder if you attended Ohio State University while living in Columbus. Since you are familiar with the area, let me give you an idea of the distance between me and the two dealers I visited. I live in the far Southwest section of Columbus within 1000 yards of Galloway, Ohio. Round trip to the dealers and back home was 52 miles.

I am happy that I was able to try these three digies. I can hardly wait to get the MP8. If it's too big for my computer room, I have ample space on ground level to place it. My wife has agreed to help me try to stuff it next to the computer with a little re-arrangement of the room, so, with her on my side, I'm sure I'll be able to play the piano, navigate the internet and watch my HD TV all at the same time unless I burn the house down with electrical overload. ;\) Seriously, with the MP8 here in the room it will garner my complete attention.

Before I close I want to leave a link to a beautiful rendition of the Liebestraume 3 that I found on YouTube. I relaize that Rubinstein is remebered primarily for his interpretation of Chopin, but check-out his Lieb 3. Oh, and many thanks for your work on revising the fingering in the cadenza. This will be a valuable tool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEhPkDrtE1M

Regards,

Lisztener
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#968652 - 05/31/07 12:25 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lisztener:
I couldn't remember at the moment but I saw a dealer's ad on the web last night for $1895. He's going to call me tomorrow and tell me if he can match that price. We'll see.
[/b]
That would be Sam Ash online - they do sell for 1895 (plus shipping though, which is about $80 or so, so it is about the same as 1995 with free shipping that everybody else sells it for).
 Quote:

I wonder if you attended Ohio State University while living in Columbus.
[/b]
I didn't live in Columbus, but frequently visited Ohio State, hence my familiarity with the area. I lived quite further to the north (Toledo suburbs), where I was a Ph.D. student in mathematics, which I later traded for MBA from Berkeley - one mathematician in the family is enough (my wife has math Ph.D., also from Berkeley).
 Quote:

Since you are familiar with the area, let me give you an idea of the distance between me and the two dealers I visited. I live in the far Southwest section of Columbus within 1000 yards of Galloway, Ohio. Round trip to the dealers and back home was 52 miles.
[/b]
Lisztener: I keep forgetting that the scale of distances in Ohio is quite different from California. My daily commute to work is 105 miles roundtrip (I take BART, a local name for subway, most of the time). No complaints though, as this allows me to do some reading.
 Quote:

My wife has agreed to help me try to stuff it next to the computer with a little re-arrangement of the room, so, with her on my side, I'm sure I'll be able to play the piano, navigate the internet and watch my HD TV all at the same time unless I burn the house down with electrical overload.
[/b]
Sounds like a dream living room!
 Quote:

Before I close I want to leave a link to a beautiful rendition of the Liebestraume 3 that I found on YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEhPkDrtE1M
[/b]
Great playing! I also watched Lang Lang, and that was like night and day (Rubinstein day, Lang Lang night).
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968653 - 06/01/07 10:31 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
Hi All,

At the end of the second week, here is my first part of the L3. It is slow and far from good, just to show where I am at. I got a feeling that I will need much more than 5 months, possible years to get ease with this piece.

http://www.box.net/shared/gjr8qs98mm
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968654 - 06/01/07 11:10 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
 Quote:
Originally posted by tvpiano:
Hi All,

At the end of the second week, here is my first part of the L3. It is slow and far from good, just to show where I am at. I got a feeling that I will need much more than 5 months, possible years to get ease with this piece.

http://www.box.net/shared/gjr8qs98mm [/b]
Wow! tvpiano, you are way too modest. First of all, this is pretty acceptable tempo for performance, definitely not super-slow!

I see only a few issues there:
1. You are probably aware that you missed second C note in measure 3 (which is OK; everybody misses notes, even great pianists during Carnegie Hall performances)
2. Something is wrong with your measure 10 (transition from 9 to 10). Since I had difficulty there too, here is how dealt with it: in addition to the indicated strong accent of first F (which I play with right hand, opposite to indicated left), I also put a strong accent on the last left hand C from measure 9.
3. In measure 19 there should be no accent on the second C note. It is actually to played super-softly; the missed accent is what leads to indicated accent G# (next to last 8th). It is kind of tough to play, I manage to play it with my right hand as indicated, as my left is being prepared for a jumpy arpeggiated interval (tenth, the first notes of measure 20), but you may want to experiment with playing that G# with left hand too - see what works better for you.

Interestingly, Rubinstein seem to use hands in a way that is drastically different from the score... (like he plays intro to 1st cadenza with right hand).

Great job, tvpiano! time to start pondering section V - I started doing it a bit, and it has at least one major fast jump that will take me days to play at anything approaching proper tempo... The good part is that it sounds just fine if you slow down there!
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968655 - 06/01/07 12:14 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
I though I heard something strange about Rubinstein playing. So, I listened to him playing while following the score. There!

While Rubinstein was kind of noted for missing notes (which, BTW, never took anything away from the emotional content of his playing), here he actually played an extra note! In transition from measures 17 and 18, he played an extra E (natural) that is not in the score. He also missed one note at the top of second cadenza.

Now, I still absolutely love his play, so the morale from this is that if a concert pianist of Rubinstein caliber makes mistakes in this piece, we can certainly be forgiven for missing a few notes here and there.

Keep up the good work everybody; we are on the road to enlightenment!
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968656 - 06/01/07 12:16 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
BB Player Offline


Registered: 11/17/06
Posts: 2509
Loc: Not in Texas
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lisztener:
I want the MP8 regardless of its weight. It sounds beautiful and the dynamic range is super. Lisztener [/b]
Lisztener,

I was going to "weigh in" earlier with a recommendation for the MP8 but since you'd said you needed to be able to move it regularly and had back problems I didn't. I think you've made a great choice! I've had my MP8 for a little more than a month now and really enjoy playing it. I've got a set of Behringer Truth B2301A speakers and the combination sounds really good. I'll advise you to use "piano2" on the MP8 as it sounds much better than the "piano1" samples. I've also recently purchased Pianoteq for use with the MP8 and really like that as well. Should you choose to record with your MP8 there are a lot of good free synth libraries out there.

My sleep habits are similar to yours and I'm frequently awake in the middle of the night so I bought the MP8 so I could play when I'm up and my wife's sleeping. Since I've had it though I found that I use it quite often during the day. The digital is upstairs, adjacent to my office and I "migrate" back and forth many times during the day.

I hope you enjoy yours as much as I do mine!
_________________________
Greg

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#968657 - 06/01/07 12:17 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
One more comment: Lang Lang playing is absolutely note perfect, yet I hate it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubVVSWHkxs8&mode=related&search=

He should have been a rock star, not a concert pianist (though I liked him playing Grieg's piano concerto once).
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968658 - 06/01/07 03:30 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by YD:
 Quote:
Originally posted by tvpiano:
Hi All,

At the end of the second week, here is my first part of the L3. It is slow and far from good, just to show where I am at. I got a feeling that I will need much more than 5 months, possible years to get ease with this piece.

http://www.box.net/shared/gjr8qs98mm [/b]
Wow! tvpiano, you are way too modest. First of all, this is pretty acceptable tempo for performance, definitely not super-slow!

I see only a few issues there:
1. You are probably aware that you missed second C note in measure 3 (which is OK; everybody misses notes, even great pianists during Carnegie Hall performances)
2. Something is wrong with your measure 10 (transition from 9 to 10). Since I had difficulty there too, here is how dealt with it: in addition to the indicated strong accent of first F (which I play with right hand, opposite to indicated left), I also put a strong accent on the last left hand C from measure 9.
3. In measure 19 there should be no accent on the second C note. It is actually to played super-softly; the missed accent is what leads to indicated accent G# (next to last 8th). It is kind of tough to play, I manage to play it with my right hand as indicated, as my left is being prepared for a jumpy arpeggiated interval (tenth, the first notes of measure 20), but you may want to experiment with playing that G# with left hand too - see what works better for you.

Interestingly, Rubinstein seem to use hands in a way that is drastically different from the score... (like he plays intro to 1st cadenza with right hand).

Great job, tvpiano! time to start pondering section V - I started doing it a bit, and it has at least one major fast jump that will take me days to play at anything approaching proper tempo... The good part is that it sounds just fine if you slow down there! [/b]
Yuri,
Thank for taking time to look at the detail,
1. your are right about the missing C note, I also omit some other jumpy-notes LH as well, I will try to put them back one by one!
2. again, thank for the tip on measure 10, totally agree.
3. another good advice on playing soft at second C (measure 19) point taken.

Thanks,
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968659 - 06/01/07 03:34 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
All,
Part 5 is too difficult for me right now, I plan to go to part 3 instead.
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968660 - 06/01/07 04:56 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
 Quote:
Originally posted by tvpiano:
All,
Part 5 is too difficult for me right now, I plan to go to part 3 instead. [/b]
We can all do this if everybody feels like it is the way to go. I suggested V-IV-III sequence for the reason of V-IV being the hardest - so that we would have more time to learn them (not that III is too easy ;\) ).
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968661 - 06/01/07 06:25 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
I read somewhere that some good pianist recommend to practice the hardest part first, I think it is true when you learn the piece up to your level. For persons who learn piece it over their level, they need to start building from the easier part for them to feel less being intimidated, just MHO. I don't want to pull your guys back to learn part 3, just follow the original plan, I will need help on part 5 later for sure.
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968662 - 06/02/07 03:19 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
tvpiano,[/b]

You are making great strides with Lieb 3. I really enjoyed listening to your recording. Keep on keeping on and before you know it (ahem!) you'll have it ready for all of Austin to come hear you play.

Yuri,[/b]

If we didn't have to look at Lang Lang when he plays, the Lieb 3 would sound better...maybe. :rolleyes:

I have a serious question for you about how you were able to achieve the bass response in your recital piece that does not sound at all like it came from a digital? Did you use a MIDI modular mode with software, or just tweak the native sounds of the MP8?

Greg,[/b]

I did a search Thursday night for the Kawai MP8 and found the thread with a photo of your setup. Nice job on the rack you made! I'll get back to you with questions about your speakers. Sam Ash rep told me to expect MP8 delivery next Tuesday or Wednesday. I conned my son-in-law into coming over and doing the muscle part with the setup. \:D

-------------------------------------------------

It's been a long day for me, so I won't linger much longer. I haven't practiced much the last couple of days, but here is a recording where I'm trying to increase the tempo of parts III, IV and V. Man, this makes for tough playing! I know the old adage about playing it 2,000 times before it's ready, so I'll keep plugging away. I hope you all can hear some improvement in the tempo. Much work to do.

http://www.box.net/shared/5obboqt71n

Tomorrow evening my wife and I are going to my granddaughter's high school graduation ceremony at the "Schott" (Schottenstein arena) where OSU now plays its basketball games.

Gotta get my head onto a pillow.

Nite-all!

Lisztener
_________________________


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#968663 - 06/02/07 03:27 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lisztener:
Yuri,[/b]

If we didn't have to look at Lang Lang when he plays, the Lieb 3 would sound better...maybe. :rolleyes:
[/b]
I doubt it...
 Quote:

I have a serious question for you about how you were able to achieve the bass response in your recital piece that does not sound at all like it came from a digital? Did you use a MIDI modular mode with software, or just tweak the native sounds of the MP8?
[/b]
Lisztener: I did nothing; this is MP8 native sound, Concert Grand 2. The only 2 things I did outside default setup are 1) chose Kirnberger tuning (I actually use Young now - MP8 can be tuned in any way you want - there are fine adjustments), and 2) chose Hall 2 resonance. When I listen through Sennheiser headphones, it is really the illusion of playing a 9" concert grand in a large hall.

I am away from my headphones, so I can't listen to your recording now, but will comment tomorrow (tonight I am taking my 5 year old for a piano duo concert - Ravel's Spanish Rhapsody, some Bizet and Brahms Op. 34b).
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968664 - 06/03/07 11:05 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lisztener:

It's been a long day for me, so I won't linger much longer. I haven't practiced much the last couple of days, but here is a recording where I'm trying to increase the tempo of parts III, IV and V. Man, this makes for tough playing! I know the old adage about playing it 2,000 times before it's ready, so I'll keep plugging away. I hope you all can here some improvement in the tempo. Much work to do.

http://www.box.net/shared/5obboqt71n
[/b]
Wow! Does your piano sound nice! What is it? Sounds like one of those old Steinways. The room acoustics is also beautiful! Now, to you playing. Your part III is just right, I listened to it 3 times, it is practically ready for concert. Is part IV the hardest? I have not started it yet, but it sounds like those jumps from RH octave to arpeggios and back are really hard to get right - and that is the fastest part of the piece! You've done a lot of work, and it sure shows.
 Quote:

Tomorrow evening my wife and I are going to my granddaughter's high school graduation ceremony at the "Schott" (Schottenstein arena) where OSU now plays its basketball games.
[/b]
Congratulations! Is she going to OSU now?

Kind regards,
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968665 - 06/03/07 11:31 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Progress report:

Per my own receipe, worked on the first cadenza,which seem to be a bit harder than the second one (second is mostly mechanical). The receipe mostly works for me, but as usual, YMMV.

Now, I am still experimenting with various tempos in part I, and been doing more rubato lately, with slower overall tempo. Here is my latest take on part I, which also includes my first attempt to record 1st cadenza, and the first 2 bars of part III (I really just looked at the first few measures there, seem to be easier than part V as expected, but hand coordication starting at fifth measure is going to be tough!):

http://www.box.net/shared/q7g3fq77ia

I also started workng on part V per original plan. Tough jumps, but I guess not as tough as part IV. Here is my take after few days of practice (including 2nd cadenza; this is best of my practice session, so I am actually worse than this recording on average):

http://www.box.net/shared/6yny9b41zn

Hmmm.. looks like the polishing of this is going to take me forever... Guess this is one of those pieces that is never finished, always needs some improvement. Great; that means more playing of this beautiful music!
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968666 - 06/04/07 02:06 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
Yuri,

Thank you for the compliment on the sound of my piano. I purchased a new Steinway in late August of last year. I've been keeping with tunings every three months and I even had my technician voice it to distribute the sound more evenly and temper some bright keys in the upper voice range. After calling Steinway, they informed me that it was born on July 12, 2004.

The following link is to a thread about interpreting Beethoven. dannylux (Mel) began the thread and I responded with two links to two versions of the "Moonlight Sonata" movement one that I believe highlight the singing quality of my piano. Perhaps, at your leisure, you may wish to follow this link to that thread.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/32/4455.html

My granddaughter's graduation ceremony was a wonderful treat. Out of a class of 330 (or thereabouts) she ranked third. I thought it was fifth until she was publicly recognized as a summa cum laude with a GPA of 4.32. The Valedictorian was at 4.42 and the Salutatorian somewhere between. She is a determined young lady who skipped a grade and is now seventeen and a National Merit Finalist. To boot, she has eleven years piano study at a nearby conservatory and is my inspiration for returning to the piano after a sixteen-year absence. December 14, 2006 she received an early acceptance letter from Notre Dame University. In early May, she received another letter from NDU informing her that she will receive a rare (from NDU) freshman scholarship award that will reduce her tuition by twenty percent. My son jumped for joy at hearing this news. ;\) She has rejected acceptance letters from Cornell U., Miami of Ohio U., and a full ride scholarship to Dennison U. Her graduation party was Sunday evening. We all had a great time. Many thanks for your interest in asking.

I trust you and your family, especially your darling daughter, enjoyed your piano concert Saturday evening. Your wife and you provide an outstanding intellectual environment for your daughter to blossom. I'm sure that she is wrapped tightly around the heartstrings of you both. Take good care of this precious gift.

Sincerely,

Lisztener
_________________________


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#968667 - 06/04/07 02:59 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
 Quote:
Originally posted by YD:
Progress report:

Per my own receipe, worked on the first cadenza,which seem to be a bit harder than the second one (second is mostly mechanical). The receipe mostly works for me, but as usual, YMMV.

Now, I am still experimenting with various tempos in part I, and been doing more rubato lately, with slower overall tempo. Here is my latest take on part I, which also includes my first attempt to record 1st cadenza, and the first 2 bars of part III (I really just looked at the first few measures there, seem to be easier than part V as expected, but hand coordication starting at fifth measure is going to be tough!):

http://www.box.net/shared/q7g3fq77ia

I also started workng on part V per original plan. Tough jumps, but I guess not as tough as part IV. Here is my take after few days of practice (including 2nd cadenza; this is best of my practice session, so I am actually worse than this recording on average):

http://www.box.net/shared/6yny9b41zn

Hmmm.. looks like the polishing of this is going to take me forever... Guess this is one of those pieces that is never finished, always needs some improvement. Great; that means more playing of this beautiful music! [/b]
Yuri,

After listening to both of your progress reports I can only conclude that the speed at which you are learning this piece is amazing to me. Your piano background is holding you in good stead here. Congratulations on the great strides you've made in such a short amount of time.

I have not yet put any time in the cadenzas and you have them almost up to speed. It will take a long time, I fear, foe me to train these fingers and ageing memory to get them moving.

IV is a bear! Jumps and scattered fingers everywhere. Since pushing for more speed and volume, I've noticed that the muscles on the underside of my left forearm get tired near the end of the section. This must be because of my lack of development at a younger age using Hanon or scales to develop my left hand. I don't believe it's insurmountable for me, it will just take a little more practice to get accustomed to the velocity.

I am anxiously awaiting delivery of the MP8. Last report is that I should have it sometime this week...perhaps as early as Wednesday or as late as Friday.

It was gratifying to hear you report that your Liszt HR 5 was in MP8 native format. The sound you make in that recording has without doubt the best acoustic-like bass of any digital I've ever heard.

Now that graduation has passed, I hope to get more time on the L3 and get started on the cadenzas. Oh, BTW, your first section posted in the link above is fantastic. Your rubato adds the flavor needed to make it sing a beautiful love song.

I'm hoping we hear some good news from kawaigirl1 and more good reports from tvpiano.

Well, I let the hours drift by as I pick and peck with my two-fingered typing method, so, I'd better close for now. I'm headed for the lounge chair where I will listen to and watch a little of my new DVD titled "Yevgeny Kissin in Tokyo." I don't know why it took so many years for it to be released to this country. Kissin is sixteen years old in this performance, but, Aha!, his genious is already out of the bottle at that tender age. He is an amazing virtuoso!

Have a great day and week.

Regards,

Lisztener
_________________________


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#968668 - 06/04/07 02:29 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
Lisztener,
Congratulation on your granddaughter's graduation with summa cum laude and the acception to some of the prestige universities of the nation. I wish she will continue to doing very well with the years to come.

All,
My current report is getting some problems fix on part1, but till working on the jumpy LH and the tempo. The 1st cadenza notes now is in memory and also trying to get some speed... Part2 is in process, beginning HT now...

I think now I can blame for not having a MP8 is the source of the slow progress \:D you are lucky!
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968669 - 06/05/07 01:29 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
 Quote:
Originally posted by tvpiano:
Lisztener,
Congratulation on your granddaughter's graduation with summa cum laude and the acception to some of the prestige universities of the nation. I wish she will continue to doing very well with the years to come.

All,
My current report is getting some problems fix on part1, but till working on the jumpy LH and the tempo. The 1st cadenza notes now is in memory and also trying to get some speed... Part2 is in process, beginning HT now...

I think now I can blame for not having a MP8 is the source of the slow progress \:D you are lucky! [/b]
tvpiano,

Yes, I am lucky to be getting an MP8 to use in the late hours without disturbing others. So far, the Good Lord has been kind to my wife and me in our retirement. I called Fedex late Monday evening. They informed me that delivery will be this coming Thursday. I can hardly wait.

It sounds as though you are doing well learning this beautiful L3. Once you get it to performance level, gather all your friends and family around and charge them $20 each to hear you play. In no time you'll have collected enough to buy yourself an MP8. ;\) I envy you already starting on the cadenzas. I'm going to wait until I get the main sections of the piece in better shape before tackling them.

Thank you very much for your good wishes to my granddaughter. That is very kind of you.

Good luck with your hard work on this piece.

Sincerely,

Lisztener
_________________________


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#968670 - 06/05/07 01:50 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lisztener:
Once you get it to performance level, gather all your friends and family around and charge them $20 each to hear you play. In no time you'll have collected enough to buy yourself an MP8. ;\)
[/QB]
Reality check: you and I both know that we need to pamper our guests with good food so they can come to hear our playing! I think that is the real different with a professional and a amatuer pianist. ;\)
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968671 - 06/06/07 03:45 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Greetings:

Been working a bit too much lately, so I didn't have time to practice; will try to make up over the weekend.

Lisztener: Congratulations on your granddaughter getting into Notre Dame, this is a great school both academically and culturally!

tvpiano: professionals also do that. Here is a link to a concert I mentioned before (they also provided some food):

http://www.crestmontmusic.org/concerts.html

;\)
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968672 - 06/07/07 08:44 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
Hi all,

My MP8 came this morning. It's beautiful and it's heavy! I'm in the process of getting acquainted with it. I'm not familiar with the jargon used in the manual (which is written for keyboard pros) so my learning curve will be longer, but I have learned enough to be happy with the choice of the MP8 over other DPs for the acoustic touch. It is great! The grand piano sound is so tone beautiful when I get the knobs and switches in the right place.

Today has been rather a mess with my sleep pattern and the delivery. My wife and I placed the piano on the living room/ground floor for the time being until my son-in-law and I can get my computer moved and it's big desk out of the upstairs computer room to make room for the Kawai beautiful monster.

I'm on my way downstairs to practice and learn about more of the MP8's features. I hope to get in some serious minutes on L3 as well.

Next on the agenda is a computer interface for recording, a couple of good monitors and the Sennheiser (maybe) headphones to replace the lesser quality pair I'm using now. Thanks for your help, Yuri,[/b] and to you, too, Greg (C7 Player),[/b] I'm truly delighted thus far with my choice. I believe that the more I learn the more I will appreciate its performance features. Man, it will be nice to go downstairs, put on the headphones, get a grand piano experience and not feel guilty that I'm disturbing the neighbors.

Anyone have some good news to share about learning the Liebestraum 3?

I sure hope we hear from Kawaigirl1,[/b] soon. Maybe she's taking a much deserved vacation. It could be that she'll pop in here without notice and post a concert ready performance link, knowing her talent.

Regards and good luck, all,

Lisztener
_________________________


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#968673 - 06/08/07 11:55 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
Lisztener,

Congratulations on your new MP8, I am sure It will provide you as a wonderful tool to make music. Let get some recordings of L3 or anything so we can listen to your MP8, or maybe a pic to see how did you set it up in the "studio".
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968674 - 06/10/07 11:51 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by YD:

I (measures 1-22) Introduction and development of the melody
II (measures 22-24) first cadenza
III (measures 25-35) Key changes to minor (same A flat, but in scores usually written as G sharp - any ideas why?) and main theme is reintroduced
IV (measures 36-48) Key changes again to A minor, this is where the most difficult part starts (big jumps at faster pace)
V (measures 49-56) Key back to A Flat, tempo to "appasionata assai", culminating in
VI (measures 57-58) second cadenza
VII (measures 59-82) final section reverts back to original tempo and is to be played "dolce armonioso" gradually slowing down for the last 15 mesures. Beautiful echo (part of melody?) makes this last portion absolutely ethereal.
[/b]
Hi All,

I think part3 starts with B major then modulates to C major with the bridge of F9->G7->C with measures 35, 36, 37 respectively. I got the notes of part 3 down with slow tempo, IMO part3 is less tricky comparing to part1, till difficul. I begin messing with part4 measures 37 to 40, RH big chords really strain my hand, do you have any tip for this part?

I will begin my long vacation next week, don't have access to piano \:\( , and expect to relearn most of them when I come back.

Thanks
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968675 - 06/11/07 12:53 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
tvpiano,

Sorry I haven't got back to you but my wife and I have been busy with getting the computer/entertainment room ready for the MP8. I have a nephew in the home remodeling business who called early last Friday and told us that he would be over Saturday to install a new shower door in a bathroom adjacent to our bedroom. My wife and I spent all of Friday evening getting the computer moved over to my desk and clearing off the computer table so my nephew could take it to the basement and bring the MP8 upstairs. It worked! I now have the MP8 on the stand and the computer console is under the left side of the stand.

Today, I've been fooling around with making recordings from the MP8. The best so far is the one in the following link (it's not L3) that I made by running a cable from the headphone jack of the MP8 to the line-in on my computer's sound card. I may be able to get better recordings, but for a $7.95 cable this sounds pretty good to me:

Link removed 06/25/07.

Please listen to the quality of the sound and not for the mistakes of the performer. ;\) It will take some time to get used to the keyboard and damper pedal differences between the MP8 and my acoustic.

Hey, you have a great vacation, OK!

We'll get the L3 under control with some dedication and practice.

Warm regards to you,

Lisztener
_________________________


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#968676 - 06/11/07 01:44 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
Lisztener,
Glad to hear you got a nice haven prepared for your new MP8. The piano sound of MP8 from the Beethoven Sonata you played sounds very good, although I can hear very light "hum" when turning up the volumme, must be come from the pc sound card.
Enjoy your new MP8, and make lot of music with it!
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968677 - 06/11/07 12:57 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lisztener:
I may be able to get better recordings, but for a $7.95 cable this sounds pretty good to me:

http://www.box.net/shared/32tkqpsiqu

Please listen to the quality of the sound and not for the mistakes of the performer. ;\)
[/b]
That's pretty good; both the performance and sound quality. The sound is not quite studio quality, but for definitely good enough for mp3 purposes. May I suggest you also connect the keyboard to the computer via USB cable? That way you can archive all your practice sessions (MIDI files are tiny)!
There are plenty of inexpensive/free MIDI recording programs out there.
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968678 - 06/12/07 05:43 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Progress report[/b]

Greetings everyone:

I got everything except the last part under the fingers; however it is very rough and needs tons of sloooowwwww practice to get the rhythm and jumps exactly right (no stalling!). Here is how I can play it now (embarrassing, but since I promised to post weekly, here it is anyway):

http://www.box.net/shared/zl7qghz8t3

(This is not the way I practice; my practice speed is about half pf that - I recorded it just to show how bad I am now....)

tvpiano[/b]: You are right, of course; I will fix my analysis to correct the key of part 3. Thanx!
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968679 - 06/12/07 06:03 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
hopinmad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 1001
Loc: Eryri/Manchester
lang lang plays it absolutely beautiful in my opinion, you listne and just want to hear every note.
i have trouble playing the accompanient in the bit after the doubles thirds quietly enough. and also playing the whole thing in general, the notes are easy enough i think, but for the exquisite tone required.

i find some bits troubling though: some of the chords in the first bit afdter the main melody play twice, are a biiiiiiit to big. (LH). some are twelfths and i can only just reach a tenth, so i play them with my right hand as well. but a big problem with that is the influency in it, as i have to play in one place for example, Bb with my index finger, being of the RH part, and the top of the LH chord, the G just below that Bb with my thumb, and then move my thumb to the Bb flat quickly to carry on the rest of the accompanying arpeggio. i fint it tricky, and always play the pedal there. in fact i play most of it with pedal, as im not sure of the peddalling. my score has pedal marks for the first 5 or 6 barsm and then says pedal sempre, which is not very clear. i suppose it means pedal all the way through the piece, i suppose thats neccessarry because the bass notes habve to be heard and theyd be impossible to keep down without the biggest of hands.
but its curious, in the E major bit where the theme is repeated, in ff, there are slurs on the notes closest to the middle of the piano of the octaves at the start of the bar, implying a finger must be kept on those notes, but the top note of the RH and the bottom of the LH can be unheld, so a pedal must be used.
about the runs, should the pedal be used there, and at the end of the piece? im unsure, im gonna buy a better edition of it i think!
_________________________
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin

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#968680 - 06/12/07 09:32 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
Yuri,

Great work! You'll have this at concert level in short order. Your second cadenza is spine-tingling beautiful. Congratulations on your excellent progress.

For my part, my practice sessions have dwindled to a trickle while my one-tracked mind is consumed with the MP8 at the moment. I'm spending huge chunks of could-be practice time on the Internet shopping for headphones, acoustic/MIDI interface and sequencer software. The time I have spent on the MP8 has been mostly to enjoy some of the many beautiful sounds it makes in addition to the piano. I have my to-buy preferences narrowed down, now. It's just a matter of getting them here, hooked up and knowledgeable enough to use them. Tomorrow, the first accessory in the form of a pair of HFI700 headphones will arrive. I have improved on the tempo of III, IV and V and not as many mistakes as in the linked versions. I'll link another recording within the next week to ten days for constructive criticism.

Keep up the magnificent work, Yuri, your talent is a wonderful gift.

hopinmad,[/b]

Why don't you give Yuri the OK to add you to the list of those participating in the study group? We would love to have you.

PS I've had occasion to call Kawai technical support for help on MP8 functions three times since last Thursday. Tech support is outta-sight super with congenial people whose time is devoted to helping the owner/caller.

Best regards,

Lisztener
_________________________


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#968681 - 06/13/07 11:22 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
 Quote:
Originally posted by tvpiano:

I begin messing with part4 measures 37 to 40, RH big chords really strain my hand, do you have any tip for this part?
[/b]
The way I do these (I think you are off by one measure, i.e.36-39), is use a sort of "free fall" (don't take it literally; there is no such thing as real free fall IMHO), meaning that I raise the wrist with my upper hand muscles ever so slightly and then let the hand drop a few inches into the chord (may add just a bit of thrust, pushing my fingers momentarily into the keys to make the sound a bit brighter). Note that this way my fingers leave the keys almost immediately after the sound is produced (since you use pedal anyway, it does not matter), as if you played the chords staccato - otherwise there is not enough time to raise hands for the "free fall." Lisztener may have more suggestions here; he is way ahead of us on this.
 Quote:

I will begin my long vacation next week, don't have access to piano \:\( , and expect to relearn most of them when I come back.[/b]
Enjoy your vacation! Mine is coming up beginning June 1st (hiking, fishing, scouting for hunting season near Yosemite) - but I take my old Roland with me ;\) so will practice there too.
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968682 - 06/18/07 11:22 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
Is There Anybody Out There?

Wow, five days and no posts!

Well, here's where I stand. Last week, Tuesday evening I believe, I snagged the nail of my right index finger between one of the piano keys and it tore the topmost layer off leaving just the soft membranous tissue back to the quick. My finger was so sore when trying to play that I had to wait until tonight before really putting some FFs back into my practice. This will be a lesson to me to keep my nails trimmed to proper shortness, especially since my age has caused them to become more brittle than in the past.

The downside of this is that my efforts with ” L3” have had a setback, but tonight I was able to get back to playing fortissimo. In the intervening days, I've been shopping for an audio Interface box for the MP8 and enjoying some of its many voices and dynamics. I opted for an E-MU 0404 box primarily because it comes bundled with "light" versions of eight MIDI sequencer software programs. I should surely find one that suites me in this group.

With vacation time upon the "working class" :p with children at home, I can understand the need to meet family priorities and sneak-in practice when time permits.

BTW, if you think that retirement will give you oodles of free time, think again. I find most days as full of activities and commitments as before my retirement. The difference being that they are not work related.

To all remaining participants in the group I would ask that you check-in with any comments that let the rest of us know that you are well and happy, or, for that matter, sick and sad. If you’ve snagged a nail on your hand, foot or gatepost, inquiring minds need to know.

Whether you check-in or not I send you my best regards,

Lisztener
_________________________


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#968683 - 06/19/07 01:38 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
I'm here; but my practice time was severely limited. The school is over, and my mother-in-law, who would otherwise be more than happy to spend some time with her granddaughter is traveling... Off topic, we had a small recital with my daugher playing, here it is (please, be easy on her, as she's only been studying for 8 months; she is not even 6 years old yet, and at least one of the pieces, bourrée, is on ABRSM 2nd grade exam):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fI7hv7TblQ
We also play a duet there (Ruins of Athens), so you can here me play to there \:\)
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968684 - 06/19/07 03:46 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
Yuri,

Congratulations to your daughter for a wonderful performance. You must be a proud papa to have such a talented budding pianist in the family. This reminds me so much of my granddaughter who is now seventeen with eleven years of conservatory experience and the joy she has given to all the family. You have many years to come of beautiful moments like these to cherish and share.

Bless you all, especially Alice,

Lisztener
_________________________


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#968685 - 06/22/07 12:57 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Alex P. Keaton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/21/07
Posts: 55
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Oh my! I am new to these forums, but let me make this declaration:

-> If you can play this, you are officially not a beginner. So says Alex P. Keaton, and so it shall be.

\:\)

Honestly, the Admins need to open an Intermediate forum for you guys. \:\)

A beautiful piece, maybe after I finish the Mozart study group one I will try this. But this is probably *way* beyond my ability. Good luck!

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#968686 - 06/22/07 01:04 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
hopinmad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 1001
Loc: Eryri/Manchester
quote, "why dopnt you give yuri the opk to add you in the study group"
of course, (but how?)
_________________________
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin

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#968687 - 06/22/07 03:20 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
 Quote:
Originally posted by hopinmad:
quote, "why dopnt you give yuri the opk to add you in the study group"
of course, (but how?) [/b]
You just did - welcome to the study group! I added you to the participants list here:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/32/4368.html
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968688 - 06/22/07 03:27 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
hopinmad,

Just post a message in here to Yuri and he will add your name to the list, but that is only a polite formality so Yuri can keep track of those in the group. Just by posting messages here will let us all know that you are in. Yuri will contact you, I'm sure, to let you know that your name has been added to the official list of members that appears in the first post of this thread, if I'm not mistaken.

On behalf of the group, I offer you a huge welcome to the "Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)" aka, L3 study group.

Feel free to offer suggestions, post links to your recordings or share anything you wish concerning Liebestraum No.3 or the members of the group. (Nice comments about fellow members are, naturally, more welcome than a hammer to the fingers, of course. ;\)

Enjoy,

Lisztener
_________________________


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#968689 - 06/22/07 03:32 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
Howdy Yuri!

Thanks for responding so swiftly to hopinmad. I should have kept my big mouth shut for a few more minutes, but I just popped in for a moment and saw his post.

Good luck to all of us.

Lisztener
_________________________


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#968690 - 06/25/07 04:54 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
Hi All,
I am enjoying reading all new posts, but not any practicing, (no piano in vacation home) till able to bring my mp3 player loaded with L3 and other classical pieces to listen from time to time. I am glad to hear this group is expanding! Yay!
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968691 - 06/25/07 05:03 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by YD:
I'm here; but my practice time was severely limited. The school is over, and my mother-in-law, who would otherwise be more than happy to spend some time with her granddaughter is traveling... Off topic, we had a small recital with my daugher playing, here it is (please, be easy on her, as she's only been studying for 8 months; she is not even 6 years old yet, and at least one of the pieces, bourrée, is on ABRSM 2nd grade exam):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fI7hv7TblQ
We also play a duet there (Ruins of Athens), so you can here me play to there \:\) [/b]
Yuri,
You should be very proud of her, with only a fe
w months, she is already making beautiful music. Congratulation!
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968692 - 06/30/07 01:39 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Thanx for kind words, Lisztener and tvpiano!
She is now into Musette (Bach's Anna Magdalena notebook) and Fur Elise (not sure if she could handle the 32nds at the right tempo, but who knows??? - she really wants to learn it).

I am on vacation till July 10th, so progress is slow (though I do have a keyboard with me). I can play entire L3 at reasonable speed (2/3 of proper, or so), but not to my satisfaction. Per my teacher suggestion I play it very slowly most of the time - she believes it is the best way to iron out all the unevenness. Can't post any mp3s - don't have my audio interface with me.

How are you all doing?
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968693 - 07/06/07 12:11 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
Hi All,
Back from vacation, starting to review part 1, 2, 3 and begining to tackle part 4. Everything seem going very sloooowly.
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968694 - 07/14/07 03:55 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Lisztener Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 921
Hi all,

I'm not sleepy this morning and I'm sorry for not checking in sooner. The truth is that I've been spending much time and Internet energy getting my MP8 up to my liking. Another truth is that I'm using the MP8 as an excuse to keep from practicing the Liebestraume as I should. I seem to have hit a wall of the summer doldrums. I am practicing, some, but not L3, and very little on the acoustic. I'm trying to get a different piece in shape for the next recital, but at the current pace of learning it's doubtful that I'll have it polished in time. Nonetheless, I haven't given up on the Liebestraume, just not pushing it at the moment. It's good to hear that a couple of us are making progress after taking vacations. I'm on the sidelines cheering for you, you know. Keep up the good work and we'll all celebrate when one of us has this puppy tamed.

Best wishes,

Lisztener
_________________________


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#968695 - 07/14/07 04:44 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Rami Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 206
Loc: Israel/USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by tvpiano:

I begin messing with part4 measures 37 to 40, RH big chords really strain my hand, do you have any tip for this part?
[/b]
Hey All,
I play this piece and perform it in my concerts. Will be happy to answer any questions.
My tip for the above problem is to play all RH chords and octaves only with the 5th finger on top.
Also rest your wrist on every long chord.
Best wishes,
Rami
http://www.metacafe.com/user/5557399/rami_bar_niv/

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#968696 - 07/15/07 11:28 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by Rami:
 Quote:
Originally posted by tvpiano:

I begin messing with part4 measures 37 to 40, RH big chords really strain my hand, do you have any tip for this part?
[/b]
Hey All,
I play this piece and perform it in my concerts. Will be happy to answer any questions.
My tip for the above problem is to play all RH chords and octaves only with the 5th finger on top.
Also rest your wrist on every long chord.
Best wishes,
Rami
http://www.metacafe.com/user/5557399/rami_bar_niv/ [/b]
Thanks Rami for the tip, I watched your piece: prayer and dance, very emotional, original and well done. Currently I am pratice the second cadenza. Thing goes very slowly, I haven't completed the LH and HT yet, any tip will be welcome.

Thanks,
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968697 - 07/16/07 03:51 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Rami Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 206
Loc: Israel/USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by tvpiano:
Thanks Rami for the tip, I watched your piece: prayer and dance, very emotional, original and well done. Currently I am pratice the second cadenza. Thing goes very slowly, I haven't completed the LH and HT yet, any tip will be welcome.
Thanks, [/QB]
Thanks for the good words re my piece.
The first part of the 2nd cadenza can be practiced blocking every pair/third, HS & HT.
The next part can have a little redistribution between the hands when LH will play D, Eb (fingers 3, 2), and then Eb 2 more times an octave higher and 2 octaves higher.
RH can use fingers 1-5.
Enjoy it.
Rami
http://www.metacafe.com/user/5557399/rami_bar_niv/

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#968698 - 07/19/07 02:56 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
Rami,
Thanks for the advice.
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968699 - 07/19/07 03:40 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Rami:
Thanx for the advice on 2nd cadenza.

Also, here is a piece of advice from my teacher. Play second cadenza a few times accenting every 3nd note, then play again several times accenting every 3rd note, then 4th, then 5th. It is quite difficult to do in the beginning as accents do not fall on any logical notes. Keep doing it until you can play at about 1/2 of your target tempo. We didn't go any further, but after just 10 minutes or so of playing my speed and evenness improved quite a bit.

BTW, playing HS does not do anything for me here, even though I am generally a big fan of HS studies.
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968700 - 07/19/07 04:51 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Rami Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 206
Loc: Israel/USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by YD:
Rami:
Thanx for the advice on 2nd cadenza.
[/b]
You're welcome.

 Quote:
Originally posted by YD:

Also, here is a piece of advice from my teacher. Play second cadenza a few times accenting every 3nd note, then play again several times accenting every 3rd note, then 4th, then 5th. It is quite difficult to do in the beginning as accents do not fall on any logical notes.....[/b]
At the same token you can do all the various rhythms practice...
Best,
Rami

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#968701 - 08/14/07 07:46 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
Hi All,

To fill the void, the quietness... no post for almost a month?
update progress:
I have gone through all parts with slow tempo and not without mistake, now I proceed to part1 again...
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968702 - 08/30/07 09:11 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Two more weeks. I've been working too much (not on L3, but on my day job), so, no posts from me here.

For some reason, the last page of L3 is difficult for me to memorize, despite being way simpler than the rest of it (I can play it OK by looking at the score). Anybody has a suggestion on how to break these "memorization walls?"
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968703 - 08/30/07 11:52 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
Hi Yuri,
I am also in the memorization stage, for the last page what I am doing is writing down the chord progression and visualizing the LH patterns. For example, LH bass is going down half step in some bars... The cross over LH chords are tricky, I am till working on it.

Last part of L3 chord progression, chords in "()" only last 2 beats others are 4 beats:
Ab -> C7 -> F7 -> Bb7 -> Eb7 -> Ab
Ab -> C7 ->(F)->(Eb-dim7)-> Ddim7 -> Bb-dim7 -> Cdim7 -> Ab-dim7 -> (Db)-> (Dbm-maj7)-> (Db-dim)-> (Eb7)-> Ab
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968704 - 10/29/07 09:19 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
nutchai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 227
Loc: Australia, Western Australia
Hey this thread caught my attention after Lisztener told me about it. I've been learning L3 for quite awhile and the two main problems with mine is learning the second cadenza and the fast paced octaves part. I still also struggle with the second part of L3 where the little finger of the right mainly plays the melody.

Any advice on how to improve? I've been practicing to no avail so it must be the way i practice...

Thanks in advance!
_________________________
nUtChAi

Kawai K-5

"You are the music while the music lasts" - T.S. Eliot (1888 - 1965)

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#968705 - 10/29/07 10:15 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Here is one piece of advice on the fast paced octaves, that was suggested by my teacher a while ago, and seem to work for me: play these repeatedly with accents at different notes every time: first place accent on the first note of the group, then the second, etc. Also, where the jumps are concerned, try stopping right after the jump. Play it slowly first, but gain speed during the single practice session. Then the next practice session, do the same thing again: start slowly, and gradually increase speed up to your limit. You will notice that your "speed wall" will start to move in a few practice sessions.
CCC suggests that whatever you do, play the last time of every practice session slowly, so that not to get into "overplayed" mess.
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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