I guess when all is said and done we do agree albeit, perhaps, for different reasons.

You never know! Actually, temperamentally I'm kind of a purist in a way, in that I really believe that you're either playing a piece or you're not. At the same time, I believe that 'easier' versions can be enjoyable for students at times and for those who aren't going to progress to playing very difficult originals. As long as you don't misrepresent things by saying 'Oh, I can play the Moonlight Sonata' when it is an arrangement you can play and not the original. For some students though, playing even the easier arrangement can be a real accomplishment for someone at their level. I can see arrangements being used sparingly by teachers as motivation, allowing students to hear themselves playing versions of music they love but are not ready to tackle in the original form. The student may be all the more motivated to keep practicing, in the hope of one day mastering the real piece.

Just for the record, everything I play is a half arsed version of the original .

I AM having lots of fun however and am still VERY motivated to continue playing. For never taking a single lesson, I don't think my music sounds too bad all things considered.

This thread should NOT be about performing an oringinal score as written but rather being true to yourself and your own personal goals.

My goal is to have fun while learning something new in a NON STRESSFUL enviroment.

While I may never be able to play an original classical composition as written, it really does'nt matter as that is NOT my goal.

I am very happy playing my own versions of various tunes and other people seem to like my playing of them..(not everyone however! ).

Why would you want to take that away from me?.

Bottom line:

Play whatever makes you happy if that is your goal. The irony here is that all the hardcore *purists* out there who simply MUST play a piece exactly as written may be the ones who are falling short of their goals!.

How many of these purists have met their goal of becoming a performing concert pianist?. How many have become utterly frustrated in the process?

All I'm saying is that both camps have differrent goals. The people who play for enjoyment seem to be meeting their goals of learning a new skill while having fun and creating enjoyable beautiful music. NO problems....NO stress!..

There is no right or wrong method other than if you are NOT meeting your set out intended goals, the path of your musical journey may not be the right one.

Had I set out only to play original classical works, I would have become frustrated years ago and quit because I am looking for an enjoyable relaxing hobby, not more work.

I DO realize that some others vary their opinions on this subject from mine and consider that to be a healthy difference of opinion.

Other members may have different goals and objectives than me and if they did not follow THEIR goals then they would not be true to themselves.

Once again, different strokes!. Variety really is the spice of life.

As MR_SUPER_CHUNKY I'll second just about everything MR_SUPER_HUNKY said and, in addition, I'll do what I like doing best in these threads - quote myself (see above).

But I wonder if Kawai, HI (was that her name?) who originally started this thread didn't bail out a long time ago after getting so much intensely conflicting advice - but that will teach her to ask an innocent question!

JF

Why? It seems to me that the OP was asking us about whether we thought it was alright to play easy arrangements instead of waiting to develop the chops to play the real thing (and playing the real thing seemed like the expected goal eventually). And that, reasonably enough, launched a discussion about the relative merits of arrangements vs. originals. To me, that discussion is pretty responsive to the OP, a few sidetrips notwithstanding.

wr - you can continue to press this issue all you want (it's your right to do so which, of course, we'll defend) but at this point it's pretty much like beating the proverbial dead horse.

After 5 pages and all that's been said by so many it appears that all aspects of the question have been throughly addressed (perhaps some multiple times) without a single, definite, firm resolution. There probably never will be. There doesn't have to be.

There really doesn't appear to be anything new or different to be said on the topic - just a lot of replaying and rehashing of what's been said before.

The facts of reality are that many beginning piano students will play simplified arrangements of the "classics"; they always have and probably always will; they will mostly enjoy doing so; will move onward & upward with their studies; may someday attempt to play the "real deal"; may succeed or may not; one way or the other will be better players (and people) for having tried; nobody will be hurt or offended in the process; no dead composer will be "dissed"; the world will have another musician and more music.

Hey, life is good.

JF

"we" will?

He means "WE" as in "Ford"!

I must admit, I was surprised at the number of responses. I do appreciate everyone's passion and advice tho. It seems a decision or preference made early on in the process, like a stick vs an automatic. Next time I'll stick to something nice like religion or politics

Kawai, HI - it's all your fault & don't let it happen again!

Actually, I'm now hoping to hear you on either the monthly or quarterly recitals - preferably playing a "killer" rendition of a simplified version of some classic masterpiece - maybe that would finally be the last word on this matter, making all further discussion irrelevant (or maybe not). One can only hope.

JF

Sure you would - and wr would return the favor - that's one of the many things that makes America great!

JF

What? Me? Championing for the "easy" classics?
(as she dramatically collapses to the floor she mumbles "I've Always Depended On The Kindness Of Strangers.")

Originally posted by Kawai, HI:
What? Me? Championing for the "easy" classics?

Sure - why not? Who better?

Just call yourself PianoWorldGirl (BatGirl & SuperGirl are already taken), sit at your piano in your leotards with cape, and proclaim yourself the defender of Truth and Justice and the Champion of the American AND "Easy Classics" way as you begin to play a simplified version of, oh, lets say maybe a piano transcription of Beethoven's 9th Symphony! We will need a video please. Don't scoff - it has possibilities!

BTW - recieving kindness from strangers often eliminates them them from that status.

JF

And your reason for deciding that I'm the one beating the dead horse, rather than those taking the other side, would be...?

Page 5.

For newer members, who are perplexed by the confusing intercourse between our learned colleagues in this thread, and wish to pursue the easier examples of original, uncut, versions of classical music, I commend to you the "Classics to Moderns" series by Denes Agay.

Yes, great collections of pieces!

On this subject of Easy vs Original, it is fairly easy to spot a heavily simplified arrangement of an original work, but how can you spot "the original" that many of you go on about?

There must be ocassions where there are different arrangements to pieces which are just or nearly as hard as the "original".

How can you spot the original amongst all the alternatives?

Easy. They are they ones that aren't arranged, and so there won't be an arranger's name attached.

If there is an alternate arrangement of a piano piece other than a simplification, it's most likely going to fall into the category of some sort of virtuoso embellishment, and will have some sort of title that indicates that is what was done to the piece. For example, Godowsky did a bunch of arrangements of Chopin etudes, but they are called "Studies on Chopin Etudes" by Godowsky (plus, they don't sound like the originals, either). But as a matter of fact, for the vast majority of original piano pieces, there are not any arrangements at all of that are in the same range of difficulty as the original (I'm thinking of pieces such as the Chopin Ballades or the Beethoven sonatas); the arrangements that exist are all pretty much of the "easy" type.

However, you reminded me of an interesting point, and that is that in some old, out-of-print editions, you might see "arranged by so-and-so" under the composer's name, when in fact, it was not arranged, but just edited. I think the reason this was done was to try to ensure copyright; I haven't seen this in any modern editions.

Thanks for the info. I'll be sure to look out for that.

Because you're the one standing over the horse with a raised whip in your hand? Sorry - I couldn't resist.

Seriously, I had the somewhat vague impression that the trend of the thread was getting to the advanced stage where some very fine points were more or less being "nit-picked" for the primary purpose of mere argumentation rather than enlightenment, and that this tendency was occurring in some of the exchanges where you were involved to a significant extent - but I could be wrong about this, and if so, I apologize for picking on you rather than someone on the "other side" (but, after all, I had already mildly "admonished" Kawai, HI for starting this bruhaha by asking the original seemingly innocent question in the first place!). Just trying to be fair & balanced.

BTW - you might want to reread the last paragraph in my post from which you quoted just in case you missed it the first time. Not that this is necessarily the final word on this topic, but it probably should be.

JF

LOL

I think all the capes are currently in use between Super Hunky and Super Monica.

"Because you're the one standing over the horse with a raised whip in your hand?"

Maybe time to call the ASPCA on this thread?
I have a real soft spot for animals.
People, not so much.

New rule:

From now on, once a point has been made more than three consecutive times, we are to set all the horses free and just start whipping each other senseless! :p

When, instead of contributing to discussions, people try to control the flow of a thread, or to stop it, many times my instinctive response is to push in the other direction. Pretty much the universally acknowledged way to end a thread in online forums is to stop posting responses in it, instead of trying to be a self-appointed moderator who tries to decide for other people when a thread is done; that never works. And, too, there's always the option for people bored with a thread to quit reading any more messages in it.

But, anyway, this thread has barely got off the ground, compared to the great Chopin thread. We haven't even got to the part where we talk about "high art" and "not-so-high art", or the part where we talk about how the person doing an easy version figures out what part of the original is worth transferring and why, or the part where we talk about how maybe an easy version is really classical music making a move towards pop music, or .... etc., etc., etc. I can see it easily going on for dozens of pages.

And I don't get it - what does the last paragraph you point me back to - "Hey, life is good" - have to do with anything?

When someone suggested that “Kawai, HI” submit a student version of a more complex composition, she replied:

Please get up off the floor. You are surrounded by kind strangers who want to help you become the pianist that you deserve to be. And you are surrounded by fellow beginners just like you who want to learn to play piano and have fun doing it.

I am a beginner if there ever was one, and I intend to follow your lead and submit just such a piece at the next recital. I haven’t decided for sure exactly which one, however I’m leaning towards a piece that is in a particular piano course that I am studying from. Of course I will submit the best piece that I can master. That’s the whole idea. But being a beginner, it’s only logical that my submission will have to be a student, and hence a simplified piece. The idea of submitting a piece that I know is part of a much greater, more embellished composition will inspire me. The experience will help me improve my playing and I will have you to thank.

I do not agree that you should be called a “Champion of Easy Classics”. I don’t think that that is your motivation and it is not mine. I sense that you are like me, just looking for an enjoyable way to progress. As your skills develop to higher and higher levels, I suspect that you will enthusiastically try more and more challenging pieces. I know that is what I intend to do. Eventually, both you, me, and heavens know how many other beginners will attain the level of intermediate amateur pianist, and we will have had fun doing it.

wr - above is the paragraph I was referring you to, which I guess is the next to last paragraph (I had forgotten about my "Life is good" comment) - sorry for the mis-direction.

I have no doubt that you intend to continue this thread for many pages to come (as you say, or is it threaten) & I'll be the first to defend your right to do so (as I said) but really I think it's a topic that's on life-support and in desparate need of having it's plug pulled (so to speak). Enjoy yourself, but be merciful, please.


Orez Eno - I'm the one who suggested to Kawai, HI that she submit a recording of a simplified version of an "easy classic" to one of the recitals. I can't really speak for her, but I think she might have been only kidding about being crowned the "Champion" of such works and her quote about the "kindness of strangers" was meant to be jovial & playful only - I'm not sure but isn't that a famous quote from some famous old movie - Scarlett in Gone With The Wind or some such classic?

But I know she'll appreciate your words of encouragement and I hope you follow thru on your assertion to submit one too!

JF

It's from 'A Streetcar Named Desire', a quote from Blanche Dubois. In this thread, depending on the kindness of one another doesn't seem like such a bad idea!

But of course, many beginning pianists never ever play "simplified" versions of the classics, and there are good reasons for that, whether you like those reasons or not. Somehow you forgot to note that. The original poster started the thread because of a teacher who didn't want to teach that sort of arrangement. Now, you may be much smarter, have a much better and more complete musical education, and be a far far greater musician than that teacher or any of the rest of us, but it seems to me that those of us trying to give explanations that support that teacher's point of view are at least helping the OP understand that it isn't just some weird whim of that teacher, and that there are those of us who have never played that kind of arrangement, and lived to tell the tale and still love music madly.

But hey, it's a relatively free forum, and you can continue posting in this thread for as long as you want to extend its life even longer...

wr - the really great thing is that, in all honesty & frankness, we're both right in alot of what we have to say although we're on different "sides" - it's a draw or stalemate - so now what? Pistols at 20 paces?

As I said before, there is no single, firm, definite, answer here and the great thing is there doesn't have to be! The discussion can go on until doomsday and examine every possible minute variation and it won't change this. No body needs to win. There's no real argument here. Playing or not playing arrangements works equally well for the vast majority of beginning piano students. And this is really all that matters.

But, I'm getting headaches from beating my head against a wall as I go round and round in circles - I know I've been stepping on your toes a little and cramping your style (as the old saying goes) so, I'll take your hint - I'm outta here. Carry on.

JF