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#2050999 - 03/19/13 05:27 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1420
Loc: under monsoon clouds
Congratulations, CA, and even if you end up spending $120 for shipping, it seems like not a bad price overall for 13 books.

I'm thinking about buying a couple more of the National Edition books, and it's a little hard to cough up $30-50 per volume.

So I had my lesson today, and I brought up that A minor waltz. My teacher did have a useful thought. He didn't have an absolute opinion about how the pedaling ought to be done, but he pointed out that the style of pedaling would determine, and be determined by, the kind of feel one wants for the piece. The more broken-up pedaling, as chopin r us is doing, would work with a bouncier, livelier, somewhat faster take on the waltz. Holding the pedal through the measure would tend toward a more melancholy and meditative interpretation. (Which was more his preference, as well as mine.) In either case, he said it would be important to honor one's own feeling about the piece and not try to force it to be something else.

Elene
_________________________
Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






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#2051529 - 03/20/13 07:14 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
IreneAdler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 120
Loc: Washington
Well, I didn't have my lesson today as my teacher needed to move it Saturday. However, I was determined to have another go at the waltz after struggling with last night, integral calculus is nothing compared to this piece, I have had so much trouble with this glorious piece.

So I sat down to practice it and I think, knock on wood, that I might be begining to understand it. Suddenly the left hand wasn't so clunk clunk anymore and the right was flitting around the keys more. I think pedal on the first beat is now achievable, and it lends it such clarity ohhh! When you have the triplet, with the pedal, and then you have quintuplet, without it, Lovely! After that session, I am very excited now for my lesson that I was previously dreading.

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#2051711 - 03/21/13 02:05 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6152
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted By: Elene
Congratulations, CA, and even if you end up spending $120 for shipping, it seems like not a bad price overall for 13 books.


Thanks! Yes, I am trying to see it as $127 with postage, which is not bad at all because they are all in good to very good condition. Buying the whole lot new is VERY expensive. I have summed up the prices of the 13 new volumes and was surprised - it was about $495! So I guess it was still a bargain. And of course the new ones had to be sent too. They wouldn't have arrived here by magic. wink
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#2051722 - 03/21/13 02:48 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: IreneAdler]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 969
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: IreneAdler
I think pedal on the first beat is now achievable, and it lends it such clarity ohhh! When you have the triplet, with the pedal, and then you have quintuplet, without it, Lovely! After that session, I am very excited now for my lesson that I was previously dreading.
That's what learning is about. Every piece you learn should be a revelation. I'm so glad for you that you're experiencing that joy.

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#2051734 - 03/21/13 04:10 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
floydthebarber71 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 178
Loc: South Africa
Oh! What is this thread then. Mmm I don't know much Chopin but loved Nocturne Op9/1 when I heard it a couple months ago and am having a go at it. I know I'm probably nowhere near ready to play it but I've surprised myself this past week. It's gorgeous when you get it right.

Certainly struggling with pedal here and making the sections flow and not sound broken. I don't think it's related to this pedal discussion going on here, I am sure I'm just hopeless. Will need to focus on some pedal training somehow..
_________________________
Zaahir

Self-taught renegade - Kawai CL-36

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#2058396 - 04/02/13 05:37 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1420
Loc: under monsoon clouds
Finally bit the bullet and spent the $$ on the National Edition volumes of the etudes and of "Various Works," which includes the Fantaisie-Impromptu, which the editors say should simply be named as an Impromptu. I'd wondered which version they'd put in the book, and assumed it would be the one sold to the Baroness d'Este, but they included both.

Floyd-- I'd certainly recommend working with a teacher at least a little bit on pedaling, as it is difficult to transmit information about it other than by showing it directly. Although we've all probably found at times, like IreneAdler, that one's teacher may add a degree of confusion! At any rate, it and you are definitely not hopeless!

IreneAdler, I'm delighted to hear that, however you've decided to do the pedaling on that waltz, you are feeling joy with it.

Another thought I'm having about pedaling is that one's ideas on a given piece may change over time.

Recently I attended a concert of Brazilian music from the early 20th century (Nazareth, Villa-Lobos, and the visiting Milhaud) by our local pianist Fred Sturm. I knew that Chopin had heavily influenced the development of choro (why there are mazurkas in Brazil, for example), but I swear, as Fred talked about the background of the pieces, about every 4th word out of his mouth was "Chopin."

Nazareth apparently considered his highly successful "tangos brasileiros" to be rather insignificant, but I don't see any great divide between his reprocessing of folk idioms and the much-admired Chopin's.

Elene
_________________________
Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






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#2058400 - 04/02/13 05:49 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6152
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
My Paderewski collection has been in Sydney for almost a week! smirk I do realize there are delays because of the Easter holidays, but please... frown

ha Guess what? The very second when I was clicking Submit it arrived!!! grin laugh yippie

PS: I ended up paying only 100 dollars for postage.
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#2058414 - 04/02/13 06:38 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6152
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
How cute!! 3hearts There seems to be a different portrait of our friend in every volume. 2hearts
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#2058446 - 04/02/13 08:52 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1420
Loc: under monsoon clouds
Glad the books arrived safely!

Elene

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#2058456 - 04/02/13 09:31 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6152
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Thank you, Elene, and congratulations to you too on the acquisition of two new volumes! smile
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#2058552 - 04/03/13 04:34 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Elene, do you know what Chopin actually wrote at the top of the one he sold to Baroness d'Este? Did he entitle it an impromptu?
(Has anyone seen a fascimile of that manuscript?)
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#2059568 - 04/05/13 03:03 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1420
Loc: under monsoon clouds
Frycek, here’s what Ekier et al. have to say about the Impromptu’s title.

A copy made by Franchomme and apparently intended for Marcelina Czartoryska, dated January 1849 and taken from an earlier copy of his, presumably of the original working autograph, is titled “Impromptu inédit pour le Piano par Frédéric Chopin.”

A fair autograph with Chopin’s signature bears the dedication “Composé pour Mme la Baronne d’Este* par F. F. Chopin” and is dated “Paris, Vendredi 1835.” Ekier doesn’t mention an actual title on this copy; perhaps it had a title page which has been lost. However, he says that the masculine form of the word “composé” suggests the masculine word “impromptu” as opposed to the feminine “fantaisie.”

The title “Fantaisie-Impromptu” first shows up in Fontana’s French and German editions. Ekier speculates that when the piece was first composed around 1834, Chopin may have been thinking of calling it a fantaisie. Much later Fontana referred to a “fantasy for Mme d’Este” in a letter to Ludwika listing works to be published.

Ekier states:
“We give the title Impromptu, written by Franchomme in [his second copy]. This manuscript was produced during Chopin’s lifetime and the title it carries was certainly accepted by the composer.”

Wonder if Dr. Jeff has a comment?

Elene

*the E on the end of her name is used throughout
_________________________
Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






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#2059650 - 04/05/13 07:52 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
Jeff Kallberg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/09
Posts: 212
Frycek and Elene,

I've had the pleasure of working with this manuscript (which resided for awhile in the U.S. before finding its new home in the Chopin Museum in Warsaw).

There is no title page (nor would one expect one in an autograph manuscript presented as a gift).

At the top of the first page of the score, besides the dedication that Elene transcribed, Chopin wrote only the tempo "All[egr]o agitato".

Ekier's speculation about how the term "Fantasie" came to be added by Fontana is only that: speculation. Because there is no evidence that Chopin himself ever thought of the title in connection with this piece (and why would he: it bears no resemblance whatsoever to any other work called "fantasy" from this era), Ekier is certainly correct to give the title simply as Impromptu (on the basis of the evidence from the Franchomme copy).

Throughout the album in which the Chopin Impromptu is found, the Baronness's name appears with the extra "e". But the actual spelling of her name is "Est."

Jeff Kallberg

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#2060591 - 04/07/13 12:20 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: ChopinAddict]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6152
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
How cute!! 3hearts There seems to be a different portrait of our friend in every volume. 2hearts


Does anybody know by any chance which portraits are in the volumes after volume XIII (I have the first 13 volumes + the Minor Works - Vol. XVIII - from IMSLP, which apparently however is only available to download outside the USA for copyright reasons). Thanks!


_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#2061121 - 04/08/13 03:09 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1420
Loc: under monsoon clouds
I thought some of you might like to know that Virtual Sheet Music has been putting out videos giving lessons on some of Chopin's works, though all relatively tough pieces so far. They sent an email today saying,

"we know you like the piano, and here we are with a new special video for you by concert pianist Robert Estrin...

How to approach the Ocean Etude Op. 25 No. 12 by Chopin
http://www.virtualsheetmusic.com/experts/robert/ocean/

In this video, Robert gives you a way to approach and study Chopin's Ocean Etude with clear and approachable tips.

After you enjoy the video, be sure to post your comments, questions and requests on the video dedicated page below:

http://www.virtualsheetmusic.com/experts/robert/ocean/

If you want to see more videos like this one published on our website, please, send us your comments and/or ideas! Robert is willing to make more videos based on your own requests and/or special needs!"
**************************************

Thanks again for your insights, Jeff. Although it doesn't seem strange that there was no title page for that Impromptu, it surprises me somewhat that there was no title at all on the copy the Baroness received. Which still makes me wonder if there was some other sheet attached. Unless Chopin simply didn't settle upon a title and so didn't write one in. It wouldn't be the only time he wrote out a piece for someone without specifying a title, I don't think.

At any rate, Angela Lear's preference of calling this piece the "Posthumous Impromptu in C# minor" does make sense in light of what we know about the title/lack of one. Except that it isn't exactly posthumous, is it. Sigh. Yet another bit of Chopin's life that is not one thing and not the other.

************************************

I'm afraid I don't have enough of the Paderewski edition volumes to know about the portrait question.

Elene
_________________________
Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






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#2061892 - 04/09/13 12:42 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1420
Loc: under monsoon clouds
Colorful Chopin Bust

I'm not sure what to think of this. Do you think he'd approve of it in purple?

Elene

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#2062127 - 04/09/13 08:29 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6152
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
It is no longer available... frown
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#2062134 - 04/09/13 08:45 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1420
Loc: under monsoon clouds
Probably just as well!

It came in a range of painted hues including hot pink! I'm just not sure I could deal with that.

Elene

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#2062215 - 04/10/13 12:20 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Weep no more. They're still available. I'm sure they'd be happy to make you a purple one. wink


Bright Glossy Yellow!


Royal Blue!


Glossy Bright Turquoise!

Bright Yellow Green!
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#2062217 - 04/10/13 12:35 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7707
Loc: New York City
Anyone want to discuss his 4th Ballade? I've been getting back to learning it lately. smile
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2062236 - 04/10/13 01:22 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains

A bit of fun, irreverent and silly - -
BBC Radio Play Chopin in Manchester
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#2062242 - 04/10/13 01:44 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: -Frycek]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6152
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
shocked I think I'd rather stick to the portrait you have in your avatar (which is also in front of my piano, together with his last photo). smile
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#2062260 - 04/10/13 03:15 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1420
Loc: under monsoon clouds
I wish I could discuss the 4th Ballade intelligently, and am interested in whatever anyone would like to say about it, but am a long way off from being able to learn it. (I can get through the 1st Ballade more or less and am planning on working seriously on it again in 6-12 months; the 4th appears far more daunting.)

Elene

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#2062317 - 04/10/13 08:05 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7707
Loc: New York City
The 1st is quite an accomplishment also, Elene. smile

Which one is your favorite (ie which one would you learn if technique were not an issue)?
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2064301 - 04/14/13 01:18 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1420
Loc: under monsoon clouds
I think the G minor Ballade is still my favorite. The 4th (what key is it?) is also phenomenal, and seems phenomenally difficult. The A flat (3rd?) seems the one that's played the most, but I like it the least. I had thought it was the easiest, till I tried reading through it, an exhausting experience I'm afraid.

(sorry, not running off to check order and keys just now)

Elene
_________________________
Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






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#2064575 - 04/14/13 04:40 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7707
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Elene
I think the G minor Ballade is still my favorite. The 4th (what key is it?) is also phenomenal, and seems phenomenally difficult. The A flat (3rd?) seems the one that's played the most, but I like it the least.

(sorry, not running off to check order and keys just now)

Elene

No 1-G minor
No 2-F major
No 3-Ab major
No 4-F minor

The consensus among pianists is that the F minor is the hardest (technically and musically), and the Ab major is the easiest. There is some dispute about the relative difficulty of Op 23 and 38.
My personal favorite is the 4th, but I love all of them and they are all great masterpieces.

Originally Posted By: Elene

I had thought it (the 3rd) was the easiest, till I tried reading through it, an exhausting experience I'm afraid.

Reading through any one of them will be an exhausting experience. grin
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2065664 - 04/16/13 06:08 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1420
Loc: under monsoon clouds
I can very, very well believe that the 4th Ballade is the hardest.

My lesson today focused on 10/3. Do you know, the National Edition (and, I've heard, the most recent Henle edition) has some very surprising changes of accidentals in mm 31 and 34, quite different from the way everyone has played the passage all these years. There is a very lengthy explanation in the performance commentary, so complex it almost might as well be in Polish for my purposes; I haven't absorbed the details as yet. But the gist seems to be that the version we usually play is not based in anything Chopin actually wrote.

We were contemplating the tempo, as well. Angela Lear made the point, some years ago, that there is no reason to speed up terribly in the "con bravura" section, as many people do, and that there is really no justification for changing the tempo at all. (She plays the rest of the piece at a much faster tempo than most, and faster than I prefer it, frankly, despite the scholarly considerations.) Just before that section, the Paderewski edition I've been using is marked "con fuoco." The National edition says "sempre piu con fuoco." That suggests what I would expect, that the energy builds going into that section. To me, it seems that there is going to be some acceleration as well, maybe not a dramatic amount but some. (Of course if I can play the "con bravura" up to tempo at all, I'll be doing well!)

But then, it's possible to add more of an energetic feel to the sound without actually going faster.

Comments?

********************************************
I was only able to hear part of the BBC radio play before it went away, as it wouldn't play well and kept starting and stopping for some reason. It did seem quite amusing. But how could anyone, under any circumstances or for any reason, imagine Chopin EVER making the statement, "Poland sucks"??????

Elene
_________________________
Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






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#2066095 - 04/17/13 04:23 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Polyphonist]
Goomer Piles Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 153
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Anyone want to discuss his 4th Ballade? I've been getting back to learning it lately. smile

I would! It's my current project, which is why I leapt right in with that tip from Cortot in the Pianist Corner even though I just joined the forum. And I hope you don't have a bad impression of me based on what I said, because I’m actually a purist too when it comes to honoring a composer’s intentions.

I’m glad I happened to find this thread. I’m not an adult beginner, but I can tell there are like-minded people here. I didn’t read very far back, but I saw the familiar and esteemed name of Dr. Kallberg. That’s awesome. Greetings to you all.

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#2066108 - 04/17/13 05:00 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1420
Loc: under monsoon clouds
Hi, Goomer!

Honoring the composer's intentions is often a particular problem with Chopin because we so often can't figure out what they really were, and because he tended to change his mind quite a bit. So there is a sort of a cloud of quantum particles surrounding a great many aspects of Chopin's life and work.

But we do try, and that's a lot of what you'll find in this thread.

Elene

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#2066187 - 04/17/13 07:12 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
Goomer Piles Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 153
Oh, sure. I should have said 'composer's intentions so far as is known from first editions and after sifting out editors' decisions'. And all I meant was that I don't knowingly deviate from the score. The issue I mentioned had to do with a rather nifty redistribution of notes in an isolated passage endorsed by Alfred Cortot, but even that kind of minor modification is something I wouldn't normally consider.

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