Whenever I come across a statue of Chopin - whether it be in real life, a photo in a book or on the wwweb, I always save a picture on my computer. I have dozens of them now. It's amazing how there are statues of Chopin all over the world. What is even more surprising is how peculiar most of them look! Here are just two - the famous one in Łazienki Park, Warsaw - beneath which concerts of his music are held in summer;
and a "modern" one from Radom in central Poland.
From the sublime to the ridiculous!
Has anyone else seen any Chopin statues that they would like to share?

They are all over the world... because Chopin's music transcends all communications boundaries, speaks to all peoples of all cultures.

Of the Chopin statues I kind of like this one, but I'm not sure where it's from other than it is somewhere in Paris. (but I'm sure some of you does...)




Ragnhild

Ragnhild, that's my favourite sculpted representation of Chopin too! Is that a model you have? He himself is beautifully portrayed, but I don't like the overall scene - it's too sentimental. It is in Parc Monceau in Paris, which is actually more like an English park than a French one. You have shown the best bit of the statue in your picture. Here it is in its full overblown glory:


It is by Jacques Froment-Meurice (dated 1906) and incorporates figures symbolising Music (with wings) and Harmony (for some reason, swooning!).

originally posted by Mary-Rose:
Whew! For a minute, I thought that was supposed to be George Sand!

He he, Chardonnay, so did I! So I looked it up
in an art history book to make sure.

If it was George, she wasn't wearing a great many clothes it seems....

MR - Ragh -

Actually the first image of the Chopin statue is in Ary Scheffer (the painter's) house that Chopin and Sand, and Liszt et al frequented often - it is in the 9th, not far from 9 Square D'Orleans... it was the basis (or a study) for the larger Monceau parc - and how amusing that chopin landed up in Monceau park - Monceau Sand's last and most serious lover! Hershey (now playing Monsieur Chopin in Phoenix!) H

Hershey, there you are! Wonderful to hear from Mr Chopin, just a pity that Phoenix is quite far away from where I am (and what are you doing up this early - or late maybe ??....)

Chopin surrounded by swooning girls seems quite normal - even on the ABF forum, but I do agree he looks much better without them.
In my next life I'd like a statue like this in my private home.....

R

Ah, I'm so glad that the statue is at Ari Scheffer's house - I will try to see it next time I'm in Paris. Thanks for that, Hershey. It's much preferable to the one in the park.

Welcome back by the way!

At least this statue of Chopin has a lovely view; although I can't imagine him standing so inelegantly as that.



It's at Rio de Janiero: his fame and popularity are indeed worldwide.

Maybe he's having a coughing spell. "Doubled over like a pen knife."

Good Morning All:

The photos of the statues are just magnificent. Thank you, MR and Ragnhild for posting them. And thank you Hershey for that additional interesting antidote. (Happy to have you back among us even if it's only now and then when you have the time and energy.)

MaryRose: How fortunate you are (although I know you don't always think so) that you live so close to Paris and get the chance, every so often, to visit so many places that Chopin once frequented.

I love them all, even the one that looks like a Halloween mask. But I think my favorite, for some inexplicable reason, is the last one, the one in Rio. Maybe it's the blue.

It is certain that all these sculptors were commissioned to do the work. But I wonder how much of their own impressions of Chopin were involved in the final product. Did they even "read up" on Chopin? Did they have to present drawings of some possibilities for the "committee" to vote on? And even then, what was the essence of the man that they were trying to present to the public at large?

Of the many skills I admire, I wish I could draw or paint. How I would love to get my own vision of Chopin out there...whether on paper or in marble.

I have yet to come across one that captures (at least in my own mine's eye and heart) a true representation. But not surprising, for I believe it is impossible to do. Almost like writing about the beauty of a sunset. No words could suffice.

I still haven't found any statues of Chopin in the U.S. In the Chicago area (years ago), there was a Chopin school and a Chopin park. Perhaps there was a statue of Chopin in the park. But the neighborhood has changed, and I'm certain the names of both the school and the park have also. As for any statue...probably long ago either destroyed or left to crumble into dust.

MaryRose: I have a feeling that you are an artist. Have you even put pen or pencil or paint brush to paper to try to recreate an image of Chopin?

As ever,
Kathleen

I'm rather partial to this one. Clesinger based it on the death mask.

Other than the photo taken of Chopin a few months before he died, I think this representation is the closest to the real thing. Thank you, Frycek.

But as Frycekk reminded us, that photo was not a true or accurate image either. Chopin was near death and his illness ravaged his body as well as his face in ways that changed his expression radicially.

As for Clesinger's work, I do like the very slight smile (at least, I like to think of it as a smile) for it says to me that he found that peace for which he strove all his life. And also the very fine and chiseled features of his face are quite promiment. It gives the impression that here was a man a step above most. There is an elegance here (certainly a labor of love for Clesinger), and a sensitivity...the same that are so evident in Chopin's music.

I never cared for the idea of "death masks," although I know they were done very often back then. Seemed rather morbid. But I am glad that one was created of Chopin, for I believe this is the image we want to keep in of mind's eye when we think of him.

Kathleen

I kind of like the blue image above, the "death mask" is very sensitive-looking and I kind of like the expression he has, not quite happy, somewhere in between. But I'm not sure I agree about the features of his face saying anything about him being above anything. I like Chopin for his music and not for his attractiveness.

By the way, isn't there an actual photograph of Chopin that we can actually base all of this on?

Very often death masks (and life masks for that matter) were taken of celebrities in the days before photography by artists as a basis for portraiture. Today Hollywood make up artists cast life masks of performers to help them plan special make up effects. I cynically suspect that Clesinger primarily made the mask of Chopin so he could capitalize on the acquaintance later through his sculpture. He made two busts, this one very good, and another, with Chopin's eyes open is too idealized and not good at all.

Kathleen - it's good to see you back. Yes, I have tried to capture Chopin with pen and ink or pencil - but I can never do him justice. Nor could most of the professional artists who were his contemporaries, judging by the many portraits done from life, each looking nothing like the last. He must have been exceptionally difficult to capture.

Theowne - there is one definite photograph, but it was taken shortly before he died, so his face is swollen from his illness and he doesn't entirely "look like "himself".

It is said that once he had died, the ravages left on him by his long and agonizing illness receded to reveal the beauty he had once had.

This is an actual photograph taken by Bisson (a French photographer) in 1849 of Chopin, not a daguerreotype, as many have assumed.

While I feely admit that I tend to romanticize my feelings about Chopin, I can certainly see a good likeness coming through in the Clesinger. But I remember (hard to forget) what a "cad" he was. And that's putting it mildly.

That's interesting info, Frycek. Thanks.

MaryRose: I have also read that when he died, his face, perhaps because he was no longer in pain, was once again, handsome and youthful.

Clesinger was married to Solange, Sand's daughter. A soap-opera could be written about this relationship, but it ended quite sadly for Solange. And, if we really wanted to push it, we might get by by saying that Clesinger played a small role in the breakup of Sand and Chopin. Because he wasn't the husband he should have been to Solange. Perhaps if he were, Solange would not have had to ask Chopin for the use of his carriage. M. Sand would not have becomed outraged at Chopin for interferring in her family affairs...and on and on.

However, it is fairly obvious that the writing was on the wall way before the carriage episode.

But it must be noted that although Chopin did not really like Clesinger and thought it was a big mistake for Solange to marry him, out of his love and concern for her, he accepted Clesinger, to show his support for Solange. And because of her, Chopin gave permission to Clesinger to create his death mask.

I, for one, would love to see this story written from the perspective of Solange. I think it would make for some fantastic reading.

Kathleen

Hey all - just finished the Chopin run in Arizona. Now to work on Mr. B.

So I ahve a moment to check in...

About masks - has anyone ever seen the actual death mask of Chopin? It is unbearable for many reasons - not the least of which is that it is terribly terribly sad. I don't know if it's appropriate to post it here - but it is actually horrifying, and tells us only slightly of what he must have gone through in that last part of his life.

And Kathleen - glad to see you back "en forme" - Hersh

Hershey, I have seen the one you mean and an even worse one recently too - where his suffering and deterioration are clearly evident. Please don't post it - it's painful.

Hope you manage to get a little rest before embarking on your Beethoven show!

Reading about Chopin's death mask I saw this :

Good to know that the they finally understood that women sometimes are a necessity....

I have heard Mozarts Requiem performed by a Polish Choir in the Madeleine church in Paris.
I did not know then that it was also sung at Chopin's funeral, still it was an unforgettable performance.

Ragnhild

Good Morning All:

Hersh: I second (and third) Mary Rose’s wishes that you will now have a chance to get some therapeutic down-time. However, tackling Mr. B is not exactly a stroll in the park.

Good Lord: No! I do not want to see the actual death mask of Chopin although I think I have in one of the books I have. But to see it in “person,” would be more than I could bear.

I’ve read it was quite common in the 1800’s for families to have photographs (or daguerreotypes) taken of their loved ones lying in their coffin. And the picture would be displayed prominently in the home as a token of remembrance. Not a pleasant thought for us to imagine. But then we have to remember that cameras were not invented at that time, so families did not have the option of taking live photos of happier times and creating family albums as we do now.

Back then, the most glorious and overdone the funeral, the more important and beloved the deceased. Beethoven had (from my readings) over 10,000 attend his funeral mass. Chopin…about 3,000. Even now, the more in attendance is still considered an indication of love and respect.

Ragnihild: The story of that fiasco at Chopin’s funeral is certainly difficult for us to believe now. But that the bishop did finally relent (wonder if he was an admirer of Chopin’s or if he had a lot of pressure put upon him to reconsider. I think the latter is true.) And Mozart’s requiem is another “too much to bear” experiences.

Well, I certainly did not want to start the day with such subject matter. I think the Irish had/have the right idea. From what I’ve heard, they celebrate the life of the deceased with a party that lasts for three days. I don’t know if they actually do that now, at least in this country. In the U.S., there is a trend for a short memorial in the home, no funeral or grave side ceremonies. So much easier on the survivors and just as effective, in my opinion.

Enough of this.

Hershey: How do you manage your piano situation? Do you have your favorite Steinway shipped to where you are performing? Or are you provided with one of your choosing at each theater?

Kathleen

Recently I was speaking to someone about Chopin's Etudes , and we were deciding what particular elements of pianism were not covered by the challenges they offer. We came up with two things that don't seem to be worked on in the Etudes. Before I say what these two things are, does anyone else have any ideas, or perhaps has noticed something else about the Etudes? I haven't played any so I'm sure there is more that I am missing.

Dear MaryRose:

Let me say that you are so fortunate to have friends who can engage you in such an intellectual question!

Although I've listened to the etudes hundreds
of times, I don't possess the musical background to even come up with one answer.

Could you give us a hint of some kind?


Kathleen

Hi Again:

While reading another thread, I noticed that MaryRose posted that Chopin played the organ on a few occasions.

This reminded me of something else I read in one of his biographies.

Almost all composers, before and during Chopin's time, composed music for the Church. Chopin did not. Not only single piece of what we would call "Church music."

While we do know that Chopin was raised in a religious home (I am thinking of those sweet letters he wrote to both his mother and father on their names' days when he was seven), it is curious that he never felt compelled to express himself with this genre.

I just wonder if, because of the possible shame he felt (buried deep) living with Sand for all those years, he thought he was beyond redemption and therefore, perhaps, thought it somewhat hypercritical to write music in praise of God.

Or, one could also argue that his music did, indeed, prasise God more than any hymn could possibly have done.

Kathleen

Although it is pure speculation on my part, somehow I would doubt that Chopin felt a deep sense of shame on account of his relationship with Sand; after all, by all accounts it was mainly platonic anyway (with the exception of perhaps the first few months). And they didn't even live under the same roof during the whole time.

If there was a crisis of faith, it might have been in his younger years during the Polish uprising against the Russian invasion. Still, even without this, you have to wonder if it was in his nature to write church music in the first place. If it was, why didn't he write any during his teenage years?

I think, as Kathleen and others have said before, he simply wrote what was in his heart. Apparently church music, or praise/worship music per se, was not.

I have always found it strange that Chopin did not write any church music. I really wish he had, and the way his music always sings I can imagine he would have written wonderful music for choir.

I think the answer might be connected to Chopin's creative brain and his way of working. Lots of his music is improvised on the piano, then written down, then maybe changed again - he is not creative with pen and paper only, but need his fingers to touch the keyboard to see what happens.

In the same way I think he wrote his Cello sonata for a specific cello player (am I right?)

If Chopin had stayed in Poland I am quite sure he would have been involved with church music - but I think for him the only church was the one of his home country.
But I can imagine him as a conductor of a small choir with dedicated singers, making music with wonderful solo parts mixed with choir (Cantatas), probably with latin or Polish words.
But he would simply not do this without a specific choir since his creativity was the kind that wanted to listen and refine during the process. He would also need the inspiration from the other musicians.

(very unlike Beethoven who I believe could sit down and write a whole symphony on paper)

What I find harder to understand is that he wrote nothing for church organ either, but again I think he prefers the piano because of the immediate respons to his fingers touch.

These are just my thoughts - since church music is an important part of my life, I will always wish that somebody one day discovers a hidden piece of church music by Chopin.

Ragnhild

Ragnhild,it is recorded that Chopin did compose one piece of religious music, now lost - a "Veni Creator" that he wrote specifically for the wedding of his friend, a Polish poet who married one of his pupils. What it was like we shall never know....

So, folks, any answers to what technical challenges don't get a workout in the Etudes?

Good Morning All:
MaryRose, once again, you amaze me with your knowledge.  Where do you discovered the information you do?  Information that so-called experts have not.  I know you have made the study of Chopin your life’s avocation, and I think it is high time that you consider writing a book…one that will probably put others to shame.I finally found something (from:  "The Chopin Companion:  Profiles of the Man and the Musician," edited by Alan Walker that (hopefully) might be close to an answer to your question.  This particular chapter was written by Robert Collett.“It is not true to say that in the studies and preludes Chopin covered the entire field of piano technique…..In Chopin’s works we find few really difficult trill passages; no interest in tremolos or broken octaves; no passages to be played with alternating hands (the chopsticks formula); combatively few octave passages, particularly of the kind frequently in Liszt, demanding a rather heavy-arm technique.  Above all, we find a consistent bias towards treating the piano as being primarily a legato instrument.Whether the nature of his own gifts led him to explore some aspects of technique more than others or whether his choice was decided by purely musical consideration is a question that cannot really be answered.”I feel that the above is not quite what you were looking for, but I hope it comes close.Chardonnary:  Your opinion about Chopin not feeling any (or much) guilt could very well be true.  I do recall that he was quite concerned that, from outward appearances, his and Sand's relationship not be flaunted.  I believe this was in fear that all would get back to his parents.  But later on, he freely wrote to them about "the lady of the house," etc.  And yes, during the Russian invasion of Poland, he did accuse God of being a Russian.  Such a horrendous experience, especially when he was still relatively young, could certainly be the reason for his disillusionment and falling away from the Church.  Chopin's relationship with God is something we can only guess about; something we will never truly know.Ragnhild:  Chopin did write songs, but I have no idea how or even if they could be sung by a choir.  They were truly lovely and quite melodic.  Most, if I am correct, were really folk songs, and I don't know if they could be divided into parts for a choir to sing.  And, as MaryRose has told us, Chopin did write something for the Church...a piece for a wedding.  I agree it would be a "find" if this piece would be uncovered.  As far as his not writing for the organ, and again...only my guessing...it would seem much easier to transport his piano from place to place as opposed to an organ, which I would imagine might be quite an undertaking.  And you are right in that the piano was certainly more receptive to Chopin's particular "touch."Do you have have any recordings of the choir in which you sing? I know MaryRose's question is still "out there" for anyone to answer.
Thank you all for your repsonses and opinions.Kathleen

Wow! So sorry for that huge paragraph above. It seems my new Vista program has something against my double-spacing to begin a new paragraph.

Kathleen