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#2229656 - 02/11/14 02:02 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 959
Loc: UK
Thanks for that. I found it, though not a facsimile. There are no pedal markings.

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#2235014 - 02/20/14 05:30 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
I am not normally a big fan of YouTube, but what an experience I just had. Spent the last hour listening to Joseph Hoffman play. Some Rach, some Beethoven and an absolutely perfect 48.1. Never, ever heard it played so beautifully. His was a tragic story, as so many of them aren't.
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

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#2235754 - 02/21/14 11:35 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Palmpirate Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/31/13
Posts: 226
Loc: B.C.Canada
Wow, after maybe 4 months on and off, I played Opus 27 no1 all the way through. Two sticking points- you know the ones.... Maybe I will get it done by Xmas! It's my 'challenge piece' but I love it and won't give up!
_________________________

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#2236196 - 02/23/14 12:36 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1417
Loc: under monsoon clouds
Happy not-Chopin's-birthday!

27/1 has plenty of sticking points if you ask me... good luck!

Elene
_________________________
Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






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#2237154 - 02/25/14 12:05 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
johnnysd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/13
Posts: 26
Loc: San Diego CA
I have a question about Op 10 No 3. I cannot play it, but it is in the same book as the prelude I am working on so looked at it. In this etude does the right hand actually also play the top part of the bass clef line? I assume that is what the Etude does, teaches you to play melody and accompaniment with one hand and in this case melody on the weaker fingers. I searched for an answer but didn't really find one. Am I correct?

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#2237347 - 02/25/14 11:28 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
Yes.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2239609 - 03/01/14 03:06 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1417
Loc: under monsoon clouds





Find more of this guy's sophisticated musical humor (the most appropriate gift one could give Chopin) at

don't shoot the pianist

Elene
_________________________
Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






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#2241969 - 03/06/14 12:17 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1417
Loc: under monsoon clouds
And today was his name-day. I don't remember how to wish someone a happy name-day in Polish.

Elene

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#2241977 - 03/06/14 12:37 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6112
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted By: Elene
And today was his name-day. I don't remember how to wish someone a happy name-day in Polish.

Elene


I don't speak Polish, but I tried Google Translation...
PW doesn't seem to accept those Polish characters, but you can try Google yourself and confirm (or not)... smile
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#2242184 - 03/06/14 12:10 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1417
Loc: under monsoon clouds
Ah, here we are, in Yahoo Answers. But this is strange-- it used to be quite possible to write proper Polish or other languages with various diacritical marks here, and now, as CA said, they don't come out. At any rate, the suggestions were like this:


Wszystkiego najlepszego z okazji imienin!

or

Szczesliwy dzien imie!

or if you have lots of good wishes, one person suggested


Z okazji twoich imienin skladam najlepsze zyczenia: badz zawsze zdrowy, ciesz sie zyciem i bliskimi, niech ludzie sie do ciebie usmiechaja, i szczescie i los ci zawsze sluzy.


So here's wishing Fryderyk and all of you happiness, smiles and luck today. (Health is a less appropriate wish for him.) He doesn't live in linear time anyway so perhaps he will forgive me for being a day late.

Here is a fun page all about name-days and how to find yours. I don't care for St. Helen so I ignore mine.

http://www.happynameday.info

Elene

_________________________
Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






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#2256941 - 04/04/14 09:31 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
WellTemperedPizza Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/13
Posts: 64
Loc: London, UK
Greetings fellow Chopin fans!
Imagine my astonishment when I discovered the existence of a manga about Chopin and Liszt, featuring bishonen depictions of Romantic composers. I haven't laughed/cringed this hard in a while. Here are some pages:

Schumann
Mendelssohn
Oh, Japan.


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#2256947 - 04/04/14 09:52 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: WellTemperedPizza]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1417
Loc: under monsoon clouds
The drawing is beautiful, but even though they're in manga form, couldn't the characters look a bit more like the real composers? Maybe in the hair styles at least? Anyway, I'll look forward to seeing more.

***********************************************

OK, just looked at more. cringe cringe cringe

For the record, as I expect most of us know, Chopin and Liszt did NOT have a stormy romance, or any kind of romance whatsoever!

Elene
_________________________
Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






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#2257165 - 04/05/14 12:40 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
WellTemperedPizza Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/13
Posts: 64
Loc: London, UK
Isn't it ridiculous? Their representation of Mozart almost killed me:


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#2257297 - 04/05/14 05:36 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: WellTemperedPizza]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1417
Loc: under monsoon clouds
I dunno, Mozart as Elton John?

Elene

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#2279338 - 05/21/14 05:24 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3508
Loc: not in Japan anymore
Hello Everyone! I hope it's ok to ask this here, since I don't think I'm up to searching through this whole 8 year thread.

I want to work on my first Nocturne (I've only played two preludes heretofore). I know it's probably not the easiest, but I am looking at the Nocturne in E minor (72-1). So I have two questions:

1) what edition would people recommend? Is there a collection of all the Nocturnes that is highly regarded? Or maybe one that has more information (for example, fingering, trills) that would be good for a Chopin-beginner?

I have a version from a scorebook I have (actually it's the scorebook to match the soundtrack to The Pianist, but it was published in Japan and it doesn't say who edited it) and I have the one from IMSLP (it says Edition Peters)

2) i also have a specific question about measure 23: In the right hand, after the first group of half notes, there's a group of grace notes and then another half note, these grace notes are not the same in the two scores I have. One is A#, C#, the other is A natural, C#

Any thoughts on which is right/better?

Gyaaa, as I look further ahead in the score, there are a few spots like this where the two scores differ. If anyone can recommend a reliable score I could just get that and not worry about it!

Thanks In advance for any help anyone can offer!
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




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#2280454 - 05/24/14 09:56 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: ShiroKuro]
WellTemperedPizza Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/13
Posts: 64
Loc: London, UK
The Polish National Edition is highly thought of, but depending on where you are in the world that might be expensive. Alternatively I imagine you can't go wrong with Henle.

I should note that the PNE publishes posthumous works separately to those published during Chopin's lifetime, so for the E minor you'd be purchasing a separate collection:
http://www.chopin-nationaledition.com/product/583/?lang=en
http://www.chopin-nationaledition.com/product/581/?lang=en

Henle includes all Nocturnes in one collection.

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#2280469 - 05/24/14 11:02 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3508
Loc: not in Japan anymore
WellTemperedPizza, thanks for the suggestions!! I don't think I'll get the PNE books, as you said they're expensive and I don't want to have to purchase two volumes. I'm leaning toward the Dover Paderewski edition, since that's the one I have for the Etudes and Preludes. But I'll have to see if I can check out the Henle volume. The other scorebooks I have for Henle are excellent, and the books themselves are such good quality, good binding and paper and easy to read.

Thanks again!
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




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#2280578 - 05/24/14 04:42 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: ShiroKuro]
WellTemperedPizza Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/13
Posts: 64
Loc: London, UK
It's my understanding that the Dover Paderewski edition was updated to become what is now the PNE.

And yes, Henle editions are of excellent quality!

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#2295501 - 06/26/14 08:21 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Shepard Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/26/14
Posts: 2
Loc: Russia
Hello there guys!

It's my first message here and I have no idea where to start. To be honest, I don't usually post anything on forums remaining a silent reader but this time I can't stand aside since this forum is for adult beginners and particularly this thread is for those who are totally devoted to Chopin (and I am).

Well, I'm an adult beginner myself who has started playing seriously since last December and Chopin has pretty much soon become one of my favorites. I can play some of his works now which are within my grasp and enjoy them a lot.

I'm still going through all this thread but have managed to read 105 pages for a few months so far. I apologize if my question has already been asked. However I can't overcome the urge and not to ask.

So, how do you think, why did Chopin refuse to teach kids and beginners?
With the exception of a child prodigy, Carl Filtsch who was amazingly brilliant for his young age, kind of like a piece of cake for a teacher.

I know kids can be hard to deal with, they may need more patience and attention, require more energy to put into them, also have to be taught differently than adults, and the same goes for absolute beginners. It's understandable.

But how about those beginners who play a little and don't need to be taught the basics?
Did Chopin teach them and if no, why so?

Was it just too boring for Chopin to teach them or was it because he preferred to teach the students who had some potential?

So, a willing to pay and learn beginner student without being a prodigy would get a refusal?

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#2296830 - 06/30/14 03:45 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: ShiroKuro]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1417
Loc: under monsoon clouds
ShiroKuro,

I don't think there's just one edition of anything that's the best in every possible way, but for anything Chopin, the Polish National Edition is certainly the latest and most researched and thought out. The expense may seem not so bad when you figure that you may use the books for the rest of your life. I don't have prices right to hand but we're talking in the range of $35-40 or so, up there but not a fortune. You get lots of information about variants in different copies, and ornaments and additions that you don't find in most editions. What you want, if you can get it, is a volume that tells you what all the possible versions are, not one where an editor has made all the decisions for you and left you in the dark, because as you've noticed there can be significant differences between versions.

That being said, my collection of National Edition books does not yet include the nocturnes, for which I have Henle, Mikuli in a Dover publication, a Kalmus book based on the first German edition, and Wiener Urtext, this last edited by Jan Ekier of the National Edition team. My understanding is that the Wiener Urtext edition, not the Paderewski (which is generally quite good too), is the closest to the National Edition both in time and in the text itself.

A friend picked up a bunch of very cheap Wiener Urtext books when he was in Asia, and sent me the one of the nocturnes, so that's how I got that one. It has answered a couple of questions for me and I'm grateful to have it.

I mostly use the Henle edition for the nocturnes, though, because as you mentioned it's generally easy to read and sturdy, but probably mostly because I've had it for so many years, I'm used to it, and all my fingerings and other markings are in it.

Regarding m. 23 of 72/1, I don't know of any controversies, and you should have A natural and C#-- A# must be a mistake. However, in the last quarter note of m. 24, you may find C# or C natural in different editions, and C natural is preferred.

Elene

_________________________
Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






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#2296834 - 06/30/14 04:05 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1417
Loc: under monsoon clouds
Welcome and greetings to Shepard. I am impressed and humbled when someone reads through our years of pages! Mary-Rose, who has been unable to post here lately, alerted me to your question about why Chopin didn't teach children or beginners. Unfortunately, neither of us knows of any evidence that specifically explains this.

Chopin did of course give lessons to George Sand's daughter Solange while she was still a child, as well as to the exceptional young Carl Filtsch. I expect that some of his wealthy young lady students must have been teenagers but I don't know that for sure. He may have felt unsuited to working with younger kids. We do know that he liked children and was not averse to being around them.

At the height of his career, Chopin had plenty of advanced players clamoring for lessons with him, more of them than he could schedule. Those, plus the wealthy ladies and gentlemen who could afford him, were the mainstays of his business. Toward the end of his life, though, especially while he was in the UK, he could have used any paying customer, beginner or not, rather than the society ladies who refused to pay what they had promised.

I can't say whether or not Chopin felt that his expertise would have been wasted on a beginner, or whether he would have been bored by working with them. Personally I think beginners need the best teachers most of all, so that they don't go off in harmful directions. But it seems reasonable that one of the top virtuosi in the whole world should work mostly with advanced players, because there would have been plenty of good teachers around to take care of the beginners, but essentially no one else who was doing what Chopin was doing. (Liszt and Alkan fans, I mean no insult-- I'm just saying that Chopin had a unique take on piano technique that students wouldn't have gotten elsewhere.)

Elene
_________________________
Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






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#2296836 - 06/30/14 04:20 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1417
Loc: under monsoon clouds
By the way, I just read a quote by one of my 20th-century ancestors in Chinese medicine, Qin Bowei, which is perfectly aligned with Chopin's philosophy:

"From the plentiful, return to the simple."

In his unfinished book about piano technique, Chopin opined that after so much effort and playing so very many notes and more notes, one finally attains simplicity, which is not so easy to achieve.

Elene

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#2296916 - 06/30/14 10:31 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3508
Loc: not in Japan anymore
Elene, thanks for your comments. I ended up getting this one:

Dover Paderewski edition

And I'm working on it with my teacher, who's able to fill in any missing information, so it seems to be working out well.
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




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#2296937 - 06/30/14 11:17 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
Palmpirate Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/31/13
Posts: 226
Loc: B.C.Canada
Originally Posted By: Elene
By the way, I just read a quote by one of my 20th-century ancestors in Chinese medicine, Qin Bowei, which is perfectly aligned with Chopin's philosophy:

"From the plentiful, return to the simple."

In his unfinished book about piano technique, Chopin opined that after so much effort and playing so very many notes and more notes, one finally attains simplicity, which is not so easy to achieve.

Elene


Isn't that so true! I find this to be exactly what happens with piano playing You practise and practise, so many notes, then after a while - something happens, and it is so simple, and beautiful, and why we try so hard.....

I've been away from the piano for three weeks, and previously for the past month had very little time to do serious practice, but when I got back , just recently, suddenly op27 Nr2 is lighter. I amazed myself getting through to the key change in 34 before a stumble. Mind you 33, , 52/3 are still not up to speed! and I'm much more confident of my left hand so can make it 'fade' in the background. It'll be a few more months at this pace to finish but I love it so much don't mind the struggle!
Good luck with yours.
_________________________

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#2297202 - 07/01/14 06:47 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
WellTemperedPizza Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/13
Posts: 64
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
...Toward the end of his life, though, especially while he was in the UK, he could have used any paying customer, beginner or not, rather than the society ladies who refused to pay what they had promised.


Yikes! Did some of these people really short-change Chopin? Where can I read more about this?

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#2297399 - 07/01/14 05:03 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1417
Loc: under monsoon clouds
Yes, some of the English society ladies stiffed him when he was in the UK in 1848 and desperately needed the money. It's incredible to think that anyone put so little value on the opportunity to have a lesson with him, especially considering how difficult it had been to get on his schedule earlier. Perhaps those ladies thought he was wealthy too-- he probably appeared so-- and that a little more or less wouldn't even matter to him.

I don't have a reference for this right off the top of my head and am not home to look right now, but it should be in multiple biographies.

BTW, my Dover book of the nocturnes is indeed Paderewski, not Mikuli. I have Mikuli editions of some other things.

Elene
_________________________
Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






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#2297446 - 07/01/14 07:46 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Miguel Rey Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 02/03/13
Posts: 343
the Polish National Edition's are not that expensive and are worth it if even if only for quality. Around $17-$30 on Amazon direct and individual retailers.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr...t=relevancerank
_________________________
Bechstein B c1905


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#2298048 - 07/03/14 01:16 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1417
Loc: under monsoon clouds
I found the Chopin quote about simplicity:

"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties. After one has played a vast quantity of notes and more notes, it is simplicity that emerges as the crowning reward of art."


Elene
_________________________
Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






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#2298544 - 07/04/14 10:31 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
WellTemperedPizza Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/13
Posts: 64
Loc: London, UK
Why did Chopin encounter financial difficulties near the end of his life? I've read that he was neurotic about maintaining a sense of fashion, buying gloves or something. So were his money problems something he could have avoided, or was the cost of living in Paris just too high even with the money he earned from teaching? I'm seeing some unfortunate parallels with Mozart here.

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#2298958 - 07/05/14 05:24 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: WellTemperedPizza]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1417
Loc: under monsoon clouds
Chopin was extremely ill and unable to work much in the last couple of years of his life, finally unable to work at all. He had spent a lot on luxuries earlier when he had the cash, though as his father often reminded him, it would have been a good idea to save more. I suspect that there were two major factors in his lack of financial planning: 1) that without the carriage etc. one "would not have bon ton," and that factor was important in presenting himself to his wealthy clientele, and 2) that he probably expected to die young and didn't include a long period of disability and unemployment in his calculations.

Elene
_________________________
Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






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