Hi Jared:

Thanks for the info and don't worry about your ADD. I'm 68 and have all kinds of memory and focus problems. BTW, welcome. Yes, you're right. I'm 5'7"!

LisztAddict: Having a shorter palm and longer fingers would definitely help explain your magnificent ability at the piano, plus, of course...all those thousands of hours of practice.

I keep thinking of Chopin's father when he said to his son that he never had to practice much, maybe an hour, every once in a while. As opposed to Liszt, who is purported to have to practice 10-12 hours a day. While Liszt was a genius, no doubt...he seemed to have to work at it harder. Yes? No?

I think that aside from the size and suppleness of his hands, he had that inherent genius that, sadly, we lack.

Kathleen

Anyone here familiar with Chopin Valse Brillante Op. 34 No. 1 in A flat Major??

It's by far my favorite Chopin Valse and it seems to not have the recognition it deserves.

Kissin does a pretty stellar version of this. But for some reason he calls it Grande Valse??? I'm almost positive its just Valse Brillante, not Grande Valse Brillante correct me if I am wrong though...

Check it out its amazing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Baro3AaSaSU

Hi Again Jared:

I think you might be a little new to our group, so you may not know this. There is not a single composition written by our hero that we are not familiar with. In other words...we know and love all!!

Yes, I agree that Kissin is fabulous. His technique is exquisite. I especially love that part around 4:15 where Chopin "goes over the top," as it were. It never ceases to give me goosebumps.

By all my accounts, it is called Valse Brillante, Op. 34, #1. I've never seen it referred to as "Grande." However, grand it is!!


Many thanks for the clip.

Kathleen

Op 18 is the Grande Valse Brillant

I've got 9.5 inches, stretched out.

Playadom - what a big boy you are

A number of Chopin's waltzes are called 'Grande Valse Brillante'. I have a copy of the Op. 34 No 1 manuscript and it has 'Grande' scribbled at the top, but by whom I don't know. It is one of the longer ones.

Kissin - I really didn't like this rendition at all. For a start, his timing is all over the place. He just speeds up and slows down when he feels like it, and sounds heavy handed a lot of the time. I like his ending though (which IS marked accelerando) - he brings out the playfulness that I'm sure Chopin intended.

Jared R88 - it's nice to see you on the 'Chopin' thread and yes, I agree, this is a really great waltz - it's good to be reminded of it.

8 1/4 inches. No webbing.

MaryRose: Regarding Kissin's interpretation of Chopin's waltz. I'm sure you recall Chopin saying (paraphrasing)...I wouldn't have played it quite that way, but play it the way you hear it.

I know these aren't close to his exact words, but the message is fairly clear. I am not saying that we are all free to just play a composer's piece the way we want to. We must follow as closely as possible his/her notation and intention. However, especially in the case of a well-respected pianist as Kissin, I believe a certain amount of poetic license is not only allowed but probably expected. We've all heard the argument that if everyone played everything exactly the same way...well...boring!

With a pianist such as Kissin and others, they worked themselves to the top the hard way, by playing beautifully and "correctly." It is only after many years of doing so, that it is then perhaps allowed that they be given a little free rein. Not a lot but enough to give a piece a piece of their heart. I believe they have earned that right, and I think that Chopin just might agree...who knows? But I doubt if he would find fault with someone of Kissin's caliber just because he "heard" it a little differently.

JMHO,
Kathleen

Chopin actually said to one of his best pupils, 'well that's not how I play it, but it is good nonetheless' or similar sentiments - but that doesn't mean he would approve of people going against his express wishes, as written in the manuscript. He took a lot of trouble to notate dynamics, speed and so on, so it seems a shame when people think they know better than the composer.

Above all, Chopin specifically stated that rubato should be in the right hand whilst the left hand keeps time. i.e. the left hand should not be all over the place, as with Kissin's performance.

JMHO also! What a shame we don't have Chopin here to guide us in person. But we do have his written words....

It is sad that modern pianists are forced to disobey composers' intentions. The composers intended that their works be interpreted, with tempo changes, a singing rather than percussive quality, and most importantly, passion. I don't understand why pianists today avoid personality in their playing, as this differs entirely with the purpose of the Romantic era.

Modern interpretations hardly differ between pianists. I recommend listening to older recordings: Friedman, Hoffman, Lhevinne, Rosenthal, Cherkassky, and Rachmaninov for example.

Although most recordings are not available online, some important recordings are available here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hfL5vaBSSf8 (very new video in which Friedman talks and plays)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Wddtne7KSs (Rachmaninov playing his own prelude--he made many recordings of this and they all sound different. He also sometimes preferred the way other pianists played his works.)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=s6xUgx0iC1Q (unfortunately this was late in his career when he struggled from many problems that prevented him from playing his best--but it is fortunate for us to see his unique technique, and a completely different interpretation from many of Rachmaninov's)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=54rZhlqhdGI (Friedman's recording of a nocturne, thought by many to be the most beautiful nocturne recording ever made)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8PJqdkXDbSI (Friedman's very free recording of the "minute" waltz)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=muTd8izSIR0 (Cziffra playing Chopin's Etudes freely)

I suggest listening to Friedman interpret Chopin's mazurkas--very lively and free. He also plays an extraordinary interpretation of the "Revolutionary" etude. One of my favorites, however, is his recording of the third Ballade. Modern interpretations do not compare. And if you are one of the Kissin fans who thinks his performance of La Campanella is "perfect" you should listen to Friedman's. There are many recordings of Hoffman, Cherkassky, Lhevinne, Cziffra, and Rachmaninov that will help free your playing.

The recordings differ. You might prefer some interpretations over others, but what is most important is a personality and feeling for the music. There is so much room for improvisation in Chopin's music. Create your own interpretations!

Welcome Lyapunov 312 and very well said.

Thank you for those glorious you-tube sites. Aren't we fortunate to be able to see and hear these giants of the past? Still giants in my mind.

While I believe that the pianist should adhere to the composer's intent and markings, there is a point where (as you so wonderfully stated) passion must come through. And passion can't be written into music. This is only possible, in my opinion, when the pianist is able to "feel" the music and not just read it. Chopin, himself, never played his music the same way twice, nor can anyone...when you come right down to it. And he was glorious at improvisation. It would stand to reason that he might admire that in others. I am not saying we should improv his music, certainly not.

But music has a life and must breathe. It is only alive when in the hands of a pianist who can feel this life under his fingers.

I know MaryRose is referring to the overuse of rubato, which can be quite horrible to listen to and also drives me nuts when I hear it. But there is a range, however small it might be at times, where the individual can add a bit of color, here and there...just like a painter with a brush.

I think that that might be one of the reasons why Chopin's music has remained so popular and so loved after all these many, many years...while other composers' music has died away. It is exquisite, charming, sad, joyful and proud. None of these qualities can be written down on paper.

Thanks again for your very informative and articulate post. And please, please write again and often.

By the way, are you Russian?

Kathleen

Kathleen: Well, the Biblioteka Polska/Bibliotheque Polonaise/Polish Library (where that hair resides, along with the death mask, an 1845 Pleyel grand that he owned, and a whole lot of other memorabilia)is kind of a little outpost of Poland on the Ile St. Louis. I'll tell you more about my visit there if you want to know, but it is an overly long story for a post, I would say.

It struck me so strongly, while in Paris, how present he is there, how many relics of him and connections to him exist there. (In fact, we stayed at Hotel Chopin-- where else-- which was just a block or so from his first apartment in Paris.) I feel he did truly belong to that place, as much as to Warsaw. It was exactly the right place for him at that time. I hope that doesn't sound like an insult to Poland!

Elene

By the way, I was wondering, what makes for good golf thumbs? My husband is crazy about golf, and I'm sure he would like to know!

Elene

Hi Elene:

Thank you for that wonderful description of your stay in Paris. Yes, considering Chopin spent half of his life there, it just might be fitting that so much of him still remains there in so many ways. I've never had a real urge to visit Paris before (sorry, but I heard American tourists aren't especially treated very well). This may have all changed...I hope. Anyhow, if ever I get the chance, I will definitely put the City of Lights on my itinerary. I'm glad to learn this he is so respected and loved there. I know his grave is covered with flowers every day, no matter what the weather. I would imagine that much of these are, from tourists (as you and someday, I), but still it does warm my heart.

Of course, the grave-site in Warsaw is a magnificent monument! They are very proud of their native son. No insult is taken. Most people agree that Chopin's genius was home-grown, so to speak. All that he was, he got from his roots in Poland. When he left home for the last time, he was what he was for the rest of his life. Paris gave him the opportunity to make himself known, to make a living, and, of course, to enjoy the high life-style that he so admired. Funny though...he loved Paris for it afforded him so much, but at the same time, he mocked it many times for being frivilous. Yet, he did love those gloves. :p

It might be interesting to know, for those who don't, that Chopin never met or even knew of his French relatives. His father left home at the age of 16 to work as an accountant in Warsaw. He did write several letters home to his parents, but they never responded. I believe the reason had something to do about a financial problem. I think his parents had an account with someone, which they were either disputing or expecting Nicholas to resolve. I know MaryRose can shed more light on this.

I am working on the next few slides...just trying to decide what is important and what can be left out. It's difficult because so much of what Chopin was was developed in his childhood and teen years. So I'm stuck with thinking that EVERYTHING is important.

Kathleen

At what point in his life did Chopin realize that he WAS, in fact, half French? And how did he find out? (I'm assuming that he did find out eventually, although I have never seen an account of that.)

There's never really been a account of that - but I presume sometime in middle childhood. Mikolay had been associated with a Polish family in exile in France since boyhood and accompanied them when they returned to Poland during a period of political amnesty. He probably had learned Polish long before he reach Poland. Supposedly he spoke very fluent Polish and by the time his children were born he'd lived longer in Poland than France and could have passed for a Pole. The family spoke Polish at home and Chopin knew no more French than the average schoolboy when he left Poland. But as Mikolaj taught French I'm sure there was mention of his French birth and surely he must've told his children some stories of his boyhood. One is still left with the feeling that Mikolaj did feel bitter toward his family in France and may not have mentioned them more than he had to. Mikolaj did give Chopin his father's name of Francois (Fransizek) in Polish form as his middle name. Frederyk was the name of his friend and former favorite pupil, Count Starbek who was Chopin's godfather. Chopin's boyhood friends tried to make his name more Polish with nicknames like Chopinik and Chopinsky. And in some of his school records there is even a Polish phonetic spelling Szopen.

The Poles I know always write 'Szopen' not 'Chopin'.

As Elene says, Paris was exactly the right place for Chopin. And what a cauldron of culture there was at that time - so many famous artists and musicians and writers who all knew each other. It must have been quite amazing, and Chopin's natural milieu.

My understanding is that Fryderyk grew up pretty much bilingual. There is no evidence that he had any trouble with French when he reached Paris (except for spelling, but French spelling is completely insane). Educated Poles were expected to speak French, and as was pointed out, he was the son of a French teacher. (Who had an obviously French name.)

Nicolas (or Mikolaj, if you prefer, but I can't spell right because I can't get the L with the slash through it), had raised his position in society and perhaps could not afford to have anybody pay too much attention to his peasant relatives in France. That is likely why Fryderyk apparently never visited his aunts there and may not have known of their existence.

I've read that not only did Nicolas learn Polish, he greatly improved his French, which started out not terribly educated.

It's Franciszek, not Fransizek (and of course Skarbek, not Starbek, but that looks like just a typo). Sorry, my copyediting brain is ON.

Kathleen, we were treated exceedingly well in France, including Paris. It might have helped that I began every conversation in French, even when my vocabulary ran out pretty quickly. Anyway, we didn't have any problems, and in Provence, where we got lost, people did their best to help us out too.

And yes, I put a pot of violets on his grave, ruffly purple ones with white edges. There really were tons of flowers, mostly red and white, unsurprisingly. Poor ol' Alfred de Musset only had one wreath, and it was dead! I felt bad for him and filched a little blossom from someplace else to give him.

Elene

Hi again—

In continuing to look for a cast of his hand, which apparently the universe does not want me to have at this point, I came across another medical article. It has the melodramatic title “The long suffering of Frédéric Chopin.” Here is the link:

www.chestjournal.org/cgi/reprint/113/1/210.pdf?ck=nck

This article is absolutely execrable in terms of information about Chopin’s life—if you read it you will be truly amazed at the inaccuracies—but it does have some worthwhile, detailed medical speculation, and brings up some odd diagnostic possibilities that most of us probably wouldn’t have thought of. One of those is cystic fibrosis. I had heard before that this was someone’s diagnosis of Chopin, and I thought it sounded totally ridiculous. I still think it’s pretty crazy, as even today a kid with CF would be extremely unlikely to make it to nearly 40, and for someone in Chopin’s time I just don’t see any possibility of it. However, a few years ago I did meet a guy with CF who was well into his 30s. Unsurprisingly, he was small, thin, and delicate-looking.

Elene

An observer decribed Chopin's French as fluent but heavily accented and not very grammatical, hardly the French of one who had grown up in a bilingual household, more like that of a quick learner who has been forced to learn the language in a hurry. Maurice Sand is known to have carictured his French in a cartoon and Solange mocked his accent. French spelling is a great deal more logical and regular than English spelling but still utterly foreign to a Pole.
Mikolaj was known to have made no secret whatsoever about his peasant orgins. He tried to keep in touch with them and was hurt and puzzled at the fact that on one would answer his letters. I once read that his family in France later referred to Mikolaj as The Renegade.
Pardon me, but "I don't have my dictionary with me" either.

Just me and wanting to be 3200.

Actually I have a question. I read the article above and was confused by the "no finger clubbing" statement. Perhaps it is explained some where in the article, but I didn't see it. Just what does finger clubbing mean and what is its significance - health-wise?

Thanks,
Kathleen

Finger clubbing is a malformation of the first joint of the fingers often resulting from extreme chronic hypoxia (shortage of oxygen in the blood stream). Chopin was most probably did suffer from some degree of hyypoxia but not to the extent of causing the finger clubbing or perhaps a pianist would be immune since the activity of the hands would insure that his fingers were well supplied with blood.

OK, Frycek, I am severely chastened regarding Nicolas Chopin’s family history. I have never read about his trying to contact his family and them not replying. Sources I have read were quite different from yours on this matter, and yours seem to have much more detail. Can you recommend a book or other materials?

I do remember reading, somewhere, that Fryderyk acted in at least one play in French in his youth.

You know, even if he was quite comfortable in French, he may well have still spoken ungrammatically at times. A friend of mine who grew up in Poland but has been in the US for about 45 years speaks extremely educated English with a vocabulary far broader than many natives—and with an accent about 8 feet thick, and often with Slavic syntax. It’s fascinating to listen to her. She drops articles a lot too.

Just by the way, am I remembering correctly that Emilja used to write in German?

That’s an interesting speculation that playing the piano might stave off damage to the fingers from hypoxia by increasing peripheral circulation. I hadn’t thought of that. It sounds plausible.

Elene

Elene:

In every book I've read, it does state that Nicolas did try to contact his family many times. In the book " Chopin...In His Own Land," which contains oodles of photocopies of original documents, letters, birth and marriage, baptism certificates, and Chopin's compositions (parts of) etc. (most in Polish, of course---although English translation for many is provided) there is a copy of a letter that Nicolas sent to his parents, dated Sept. 15, 1790.

Here are just the first few lines:

"My dear Father and Mother:
In the uncertainy in which I am as to whether my letters have reached you, I am writing a word or two just to ask about the state of your health and to prove my respect for you and my attachment to you. For the last two years, I have had no new from you, I do not know to what to attribute this, yet, my dear Parents, the fact of my being far away only increases my respect for you by making me realize what happiness I have for no long being deprived of by not seeing you or receiving any news of you."

One has to feel sorry for him and wonder what kind of parents he had. Whatever the reason they did not respond (whatever made them mad at him) most parents' hearts would melt at receiving such a loving letter. Young Chopin inherited some of his father's affectionate way with words, that's for sure.

Regarding Fryderyk's use of French and Polish. He readily admitted he was terrible at writing French (this from his letters). What is rather endearing is that he would get extremely angry with people who misspelled Polish words and names (and let's admit it, this is quite easy to do). Yet he took no real interest in getting the French words and names spelled correctly. One of the reasons why translators of his letters find their task so difficult is that he often referred to the same person using different spellings or nicknames, etc. So the translators had to figure out who in the heck he was talking about. It wasn't unusal for him to use three or four different names (often terribly misspelled) for the same person...in French, that is. He just didn't seem to want to bother.

Again, Chopin did not like to write, but in the letters he did...his charm and affection were quite evident. His letters were often quite humorous and sometimes caustic. But in almost everyone of them, he asked about someone's health or well-being, asking to be remembered to them, etc. Always concerned with others. This, to me, indicates the best of all his good qualities...thoughtfulness.

Another aside...Chopin's father wrote to him in French, but Chopin always replied in Polish, the language with which he was the most comfortable.

About your Polish friend who has been in the States for 45 years. Most Poles coming here are overjoyed at the prospect of being Americans. They try to learn the language as quickly as possible to assimilate into their new land. (Not quite what goes on today.) Yes, they do often have schools where their children can learn the Polish language and traditions. Yet, above all, they want their children to be "Americans." As much as they love and miss their homeland, most have no intention of returning to live there. They work hard at making the American dream come true for them. I once read that of all the ethnic groups, the Polish were the least represented on the welfare rolls.

Sorry...I guess you can tell I have some Polish blood in me and I often write from first-hand experience about them.

I watched a Netflix film last night: Evgeny Kissin: The Gift of Music. This was filmed in 1997 when he was about 24. Most of it was about his appearance in London at the Promenade concert at the Royal Albert Hall. It was the first time in the halls's 103 history that a concert was given by a soloist. He played for over 2 and 1/2 hours and gave the longest run of encores in the entire history also. His playing was magnificient. I know MaryRose doesn't quite care for his interpretation of Chopin, but it was mentioned that Chopin is his favorite composer. The film did have some documentary information about him also. It seems he was born with the "gift," and was humming the music he heard his sister play while he was still in his crib at 11 months. I would imagine that he could be called a genius by some. But then one always has to define what that term means.

MaryRose: Were you at this performance?

My best to all,
Kathleen

Kathleen, I've never seen Kissin live. I did notice he was in London I think last year... but he's just not 'my' type of Chopin exponent. Of course, having said that I'd love to be able to play ten percent as well as he can!

I enjoyed the excerpt you gave us of Chopin's father's letter - I haven't seen that before. How extraordinary that such a letter survived. I do wonder if the unreliability of the postal service might have contributed to his parents' lack of response - I hope they loved him. Certainly the sort of husband and father he turned out to be suggests that he had had a stable childhood, whatever happened later, as very often the children grow up to replicate their own family home atmosphere, however much they try to improve.

Like Elene, I've always been surprised that Chopin's French wasn't near perfect, given that his Father was a French teacher and the aristocrats in Poland all spoke French. I do wonder if he rather realised his accent added to his charm, and didn't try to speak as well as he, as a great mimic, obviously could have done. There is little as pleasant to the ear as a Polish accent, in my experience.

I just Googled Nicolas Chopin and found that he teaches statistics in Paris. He got his Ph.D. in 2003 and is a cute young guy with curly dark hair.

Not that this is a big help to us. Could be a relative, though--?

Kathleen, I’ve got to get that book “Chopin in His Own Land.” All this goes to show how critical it is to have original source material. I can’t read very much Polish, but I would still rather know EXACTLY what a person said and go from there. (I can manage in French more or less well.)

I can’t go back just now and figure out how I was so mistaken about Nicolas because I have lent out some of my books to a patient of mine who has suddenly developed a burning interest in Chopin and Sand. I seem to be contaminating people!

I did see one item of interest in “Chopin” by Ates Orga, which is a terrible biography, not very accurate, but has terrific pictures. Orga quotes Nicolas himself as writing that he had intended twice to go back to France, but both times he became extremely ill and nearly died, so he figured that he was meant to stay in Poland.

My friend with the thick accent certainly intended to learn English as well as possible, but she says that languages are extremely difficult for her. She found it impossible even to learn Russian while in school in Poland, which I find hard to imagine. She is an incredibly brainy person, but that’s just not how her brain works. Anyway, I just gave her as an example of a person who sounds very non-native even after so many years, despite an excellent overall command of English.

Elene

Nicholas' illness was "asthma" whatever was meant by that, something respiratory in any case. Many of Chopin's contemporaries said Chopin has inherited his constitution, meaning his weak chest, from his father.

Yes, Nicolas' respiratory illnesses are significant to that theory about alpha-1 antitrypsin deficiency being in the family.

Whatever happened with his birth family, it does appear that he did a good job with his own kids. So many of our major composers had fathers that insisted on their becoming lawyers or something, or else pushed them unmercifully as musicians. Fryderyk was very fortunate in that respect.

Kathleen, it occurred to me (I'm not arguing the fact that our friend was more comfortable in Polish than French) that whenever Fryderyk was writing to his folks in Poland, he was generally writing to the whole family, not just to his dad. Even if he was replying specifically to his father, he would have expected the whole family to want to read the letter, so it would have made sense to write in the language they could read most easily.

Of course writing in Polish to the whole family makes senses but there are many other instances of Chopin's discomfort with writing in French. One of his students/friends recounted how Chopin was trying to write a note to be taken to his publishers. After many frustrating attempts, he threw down his pen and jumped up saying, "I think I'll just go see them." Not to mention the letters where he apologizes for having to "use words I can spell" and "not having my dictionary with me."

"The pen burns my fingers"

Never worked with my teachers.