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I don't mean to dwell on Glenn Gould, but it turns out that his recording of Chopin's third sonata (mentioned earlier by Cheeto717) is on YouTube! (Well, the first and last movements, anyway.) Allegro Maestoso: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0wErcLg1Pg Finale: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arfYFtc7hlw This music is certainly Chopin at his creative peak, and seems thoroughly characteristic, too. It's Chopin through and through! It completely eludes me how Gould could find some value in this sonata but not, apparently, the rest of Chopin's oeuvre. (The video portion is the score itself, which moves dynamically as the piece progresses. I love that!) Steven
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Thanks, Steven. I listened to both sections. The first was OK. I thought he didn't bring out the melody line as well as he could have, and, at times, I got the feeling he was just "mailing it in," so to speak.
However, the Finale was horrible. Good grief...the left hand was jumpy, erractic, and uneven. I'm no expert, as I have often said, but I think his love of Bach has influenced the way he plays other composers, well, at least, Chopin.
Perhaps, he should have just stayed with Bach, since so many agree that he was a genius at this.
I was reading a novel a few days ago, and the main character referred to Bach's music as mathematical precision. I think this term is a good description. So many love precision in music, and I can understand why. I believe it's because they know what is coming next, and it gives them a sense of security. Their music has "stability." And Lord knows, we so need stability in our lives.
Whereas, in the romantic genre, where emotion takes the place of precision, one never really knows where the music will go. Why this type of music appeals to others is, of course, just a guess on my part. I do think there is much charm and grace in Bach and Mozart, but there is something indefinable in Chopin. Something that takes you to the very edge...to a place where you have never been and where you almost feel totally exposed, if that makes sense. In contrast, there is a sense of adventure and, at times, almost danger. And we do need adventure in our lives; otherwise, it would be pretty dull.
Heck, I am rambling again.
Thanks again, Steven. And I wonder, as you do, what Gould found in this sonata that he didn't find in any of Chopin's other works. Just as well, I think.
Kathleen
Chopin’s music is all I need to look into my soul.
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Originally posted by loveschopintoomuch: However, the Finale was horrible. Good grief...the left hand was jumpy, erractic, and uneven. He probably was practicing/experimenting the first 30-40 seconds. He did not use any pedal so the LH sounds choppy, but his playing is extremely even. The rest of this movement is about as good as any one could possibly play it.
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I won't argue with you, LA, because you are far more of an expert than I. But, like almost anything in the arts, opinions are very subjective. IOW, I know what I like, and I didn't like his performance. Perhaps he played it a little "too good," for my tastes.
Kathleen
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I really liked the Finale, very colorful.
I remember learning my first Bach fugue. It was extremely hard to just learn the notes and be able to play them. But when I was done and could play all the notes at the right speed with only a few mistakes, my teacher said, "Okay, that was the easy part". Trying to bring out all the different voices and lines was the hard part and boy was it hard.
And as hard as it is to play the Ravel or Chopin pieces I play now, nothing really matches the difficulty I faced when learning that fugue.
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I liked Gould's Chopin, too! In the finale, I was particularly intrigued by his staccato treatment of the first statement of the main theme. And those right-hand scale passages of the B theme were so legato and even that they sounded glissando-like. BTW, there's another vid on YouTube of Gould playing the finale of Beethoven's "Moonlight" that I didn't find very congenial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w82GmMQsOiY Dang, it's more a flying prestissimo than merely presto, and, though technically accurate, the speed completely robs that heartrending secondary theme of its urgently plaintive appeal. IMHO, of course. Steven
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I listened/watched Gould playing Beethoven's Emperor concerto. He was magnificient, and I know old Ludwig would have been very pleased with his performance. The man could certainly play the piano; that's a given.
Kathleen
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Wow, I was just listening to both those Gould Finales - the Beethoven and the Chopin. I had to force myself to listen to the latter as I feel angry with Gould for not appreciating Chopin! His technique is phenomenal though. I admit to finding the Beethoven quite exciting, but as Sotto Voce said, faster than the composer intended. On another 'note' altogether, a friend of mine has just returned from Paris and she took a photo of Chopin's tomb, which seems to have more flowers than ever! I am a little worried about those blue roses; I do hope they aren't plastic. He wouldn't like that at all.
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MaryRose:
That photo is gorgeous. The flowers are a riot of colors and shapes...exquisite.
Someday, in the not too distant future, I hope to be standing right in front of his tomb and add my own bouquet of violets. What a magnificient tribute to a magnificent human being.
Thanks so much for sharing, Kathleen
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Mon dieu, even more flowers than when I was there, and I thought that was a lot! Of course, I was there before the height of tourist season.
So many people to share him with....
Elene
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His popularity will never fade as long as there are pianos in this world, and people who love to play music that is ageless and sublime.
Kathleen
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Originally posted by Elene: So many people to share him with.... Elene, what an interesting comment. In matters of popular culture, I've often had the experience of fascination with something or other that fades once it has become mainstream. For some reason, the element of obscurity adds to the enchantment; once something has been embraced by the masses, it's no longer special and loses its allure. Familiarity breeds contempt? But how about our regard for Chopin, considering his undisputed stature and overwhelming popularity? I've always found his universal acclaim to be cause for celebration and never felt that it tarnished my feelings. My relationship with Chopin's music is inviolable. If everyone who shares our devotion feels that way, too, it doesn't diminish the uniqueness of my own personal connection at all. Steven
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Well said (as usual), Steven. I've always been extremely pleased when I hear a youngster playing a Chopin piece or when I attend a professional concert in which Chopin is given center stage. And, it goes without saying, reading all the threads on the ABF where people are asking questions about which of his etudes are the easiest or which prelude to start with, etc. I just wish the whole world would feel as we do. One can never get enough of a good thing. Oh, another thought. In the Pianist Corner, there is a thread going entitled: "Who is your least favorite composer." AND, the last time I looked, Chopin did not appear anywhere. However, our dear friend Bach did...also Mozart. The Pianist Corner has the most accomplished pianists posting. The fact that they (as a whole) didn't particulary care for Bach or Mozart sort of made me smile a bit. Don't get mad. I know Bach is very much a favorite of many. This is just an observation, nothing more. :p Kathleen
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I finally listened to the Gould recordings of Beethoven and Chopin. When I heard the Moonlight Sonata finale, my first thought was, “How can anyone play this so inhumanly fast?†And my second thought was, “Why would anyone want to?†But the fact that he could certainly is amazing. I listened to the Chopin third movement before the first, and didn’t mind it particularly, but in the first movement, Gould’s mechanical-sounding approach shows its weakness. “Jouée par un ordinateur†says one of the YouTube comments—as if “played by a computer.†It was interesting to juxtapose these two pieces, because it seems to me that the third movement of Chopin’s third sonata is his most Beethoven-like work. Those who think Chopin paid no attention to Beethoven have apparently never heard his sonatas at all. But: a Chopin fugue? I ran into that on YouTube too, and I hadn’t known it existed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkSIz0KL60A&feature=related Or does it exist, really? The notes that accompany it call its authenticity into question: ‘Composed in 1840 or 1841, published in 1898. This fugue is from a manuscript in the possession of Natalie Janotha, who probably got it from the late Princess Czartoryska, a pupil of the composer. Chopin in a letter to Fontana (summer 1839): Otherwise I do nothing; I correct for myself the Parisian edition of Bach; not only the stroke-makers errors, but, I think, the harmonic errors committed by those who pretend to understand Bach. I do not do it with the pretension that I understand him better than they, but from a conviction that I sometimes guess how it ought to be." James Huneker wrote: "The composition is ineffective, and in spots ugly, particularly in the stretta, and is no doubt an exercise during the working years with Elsner. The fact that in the coda the very suspicious octave pedal-point and trills may be omitted, so the editorial note urns [sic], leads one to suspect that out of a fragment Janotha has evolved, Cuvier-like, an entire composition. Chopin as fugue-maker does not appear in a brilliant light." ‘ Can anyone provide further enlightenment about this piece? Elene
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Elene, in the version of Huneker's biography edited by Herbert Weinstock, Weinstock adds this footnote to the text you quoted:
"The A Minor Fugue is authentic."
I don't know if that's still treated as an undisputed fact, but I haven't heard otherwise.
I wish I liked the fugue more. I guess it's grown on me a little bit over time, but it's hard not to be disappointed by it.
Steven
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Hi Elene:
This fugue is listed in Bailie's book. Whether or not this is verification that he actually wrote it, still may not be proof. But it would seem so.
However, she mentions that it is a curiosity, but it should be remember how he was devoted to Bach, so perhaps it should come as no surprise.
She goes on to add that it is a complete two-voice fugue (probably written in 1841-2) with a purposeful 6-bar subject and countersubject, partial entries of the subject in stretto and determinedly modulating episodes.
What is even more curious is that she doesn't write that it is ineffective or ugly, as Huneker opines. (Who cares what he thought anyhow.)
I rather liked it. It sounded like Bach but not quite. Maybe it's that "not quite," that I liked.
Chopin, who mentioned that Beethoven was too loud, still had great respect for the man and his music and often had his students play it.
How can anyone not like Beethoven? He is, as often stated, larger than life and was a genius in the true sense of the word.
I'm going to see if I can find a copy of Chopin's fugue, for I can't seem to get into Bach...at all.
Kathleen
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Kathleen, I see you and I posted at the same moment. I didn't know whether to laugh or cringe at the comment that Beethoven was "too loud"; it almost sounds like a very un-PC jest about his deafness! The score for the fugue is at IMSLP. I thought of learning it once upon a time, but decided not to after reading through it a couple of times. It didn't lie well under my hands, and I found the sustained trills really awkward—and not enough musical substance IMHO to make it worthwhile. Steven
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Thank you for the info on the fugue. I didn't know about IMSLP. I see that it had been shut down for a while but is now up and running again.
Chopin must have had to write fugues and/or other contrapuntal pieces during his training, as well, but I suppose those are all gone.
Elene
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Thanks, Steven. I tried getting on that site, but I couldn't figure out how to print the music. It really doesn't matter however. Since you didn't find it worthwhile and a bit awkward to play, I think I'll stick with the nocturnes and waltzes for a while.
Kathleen
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Originally posted by Elene: Thank you for the info on the fugue. I didn't know about IMSLP. I see that it had been shut down for a while but is now up and running again.
Chopin must have had to write fugues and/or other contrapuntal pieces during his training, as well, but I suppose those are all gone.
Elene Teenaged Chopin mentions in a letter that Professor Elsner was tutoring him twice a week in "strict counterpoint."
Slow down and do it right.
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