Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Trying to play Joplin's The Entertainer

I played one of the simplified arrangements of the Entertainer as a child, and recently after starting to play again, decided I wanted to learn the original -- even though it's a bit above the level of anything I've tried before, I was motivated and kind of liked the idea of stretching my playing skills a bit.

Well, I've been at it for two months now. The melody is definitely recognizable, but it's really slow (like 1/4 normal speed) and my fingers just can't seem to nail those octaves consistently when playing at a reasonable pace -- i have small hands and have trouble hitting octaves when I have to stretch to hit certain middle notes in between -- a common occurrence in this piece. Furthermore, I seem to be plateauing. I wonder if this is about as good as its gonna get for me at this point. So far, I've really only focused on the first two pages... I felt it would be better to focus on a page or two rather than wasting energy learning the whole piece if I'm never going to play it well.

Anyway, should I call it a day and move on, or should I plod through this for longer? I just feel like no matter how much more I practice this piece, I just don't have a big enough reach to consistently hit the octave passages at a good pace...

I don't know if it's the best metric in the world but I find that if I can't advance through a piece by two measures per week of practice where I can play them at close to normal tempo at the end of the week that the piece is above where I'm at right now and I come back to it later.

Also, it's hard to say without watching you play but if you can reach an octave but playing notes while holding an octave is giving you trouble I would say that's more an indicator of a lack of strength/flexibility rather than hands being too small.

Whether you keep at it or come back to it later is up to you. Personally, I find that if I keep beating my head against a piece that's beyond me I am actually making slower progress than I would be playing something that's a bit of a stretch but within my current level of ability.

Yeah, I think I'll give it another couple weeks (maybe a miracle will happen, I really want to learn this piece). If after two weeks, I'm not progressing at my expected pace, I'll shelve it.

Hey, I'm only 15 now, and i've been playing classical piano since i was 6, and when i was about 10 my neighbor came up to my house and gave me a copy of "Maple Leaf Rag". My teacher thought it was outta my league, but we decided to take in on, and it took me a while, but i learned it remarkably fast, faster than i'm learning much easier pieces now 5 years later (because of a lack of motivation no doubt) :p

Well as i saying, I have been playing Maple Leaf Rag for a while, and although i havn't look at the sheet music for the entertainer, Maple Leaf sounds a lot easier. You should check out Maple Leaf, and ill check out the entertainer.

As for not progressing at expected rate, that only happens to me when i don't practice an hour a day every day (been a couple years since i did that), but the more you practice the more it should help.

Do you have a teacher??

Entertainer is hard for people with small hands. I tried it many years ago and could only play it okay.

I'd give it a couple more weeks. The last two sections are easier than the first two.

Hi Gourdo

I agree that "The Entertainer" is a very challenging piece. I have been on and off with it for about a year. The better I get at it the more I realize how tough this piece is to play right. The hard part is playing those octaves crisp and clear. I once thought the Entertainer was easier than "Maple Leaf" and commented on this forum to that effect. There was another more experienced player, John Citron I believe, who stated that "The Entertainer" is tougher. I am beginning to believe him, this piece is not as easy as it sounds precisely because of those octaves. It takes plenty of practice to develop the strength and flexibility to play them accurately as C7 Player notes, especially those with small to average hands but I believe it is doable if you can comfortably reach an octave. I wouldn't give up but keep on working on it periodically, it will get better over time.

If you are into Joplin rags, I would recommend trying out "The Cascades" and "Solace" which are both a bit easier to play than either of the above.

Vintagefingers,

Please check your Private Messages.

Mel

Well, I had a bit of a break-through. I'm actually progressing slowly again... things are getting a tad bit easier and it's speeding up a bit.

It seems that as Vintagefingers says, its playing those octaves crisply every time that's difficult for small fingers. I find that when I first start playing the piece I'm in pretty good shape, but after about 10-15 minutes of practicing, my fingers fatigue just ever so slightly and the octaves start to get sloppy. It really takes concentration and probably some flexibility work for me to get more consistent.

I've got Maple Leaf Rag as well. It's good to know that it's a little easier. I will start into it just as soon as I'm certain I've plateaued with the Entertainer.

Solace is a sweet tune. It was the b-side of "The Entertainer" single.. Showing my age..

Gourdo: I have been attempting to play the Entertainer for 10 years. It's one of my favorites. I have been picking up the piece every 6 months for the last 10 years ( no joke) and each time it gets easier and easier and it seems like my hands can handle the octaves better and most importantly much more smoother. Also it seems like my fingers can stretch just a little bit more as time goes on. I just picked up the piece again over the holidays and it seems like I can handle the octaves quicker and smoother than ever before. I have a hunch that I may finally be able to play it by years end.
So don't give up, you may need to put it aside for awhile and pick it up again a few months down the road and you will find that it is easier.

Solace? Umhhhh I need to find a recording of that!Can someone send me a recording of that Y'all such a smart group here I am always learning stuff I did'nt know before! :p

Arias

You can hear a little snippet of it here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VexRPM2WPho

You might recongize it from the film "The Sting" It was used in the scene where Robert Redford had a little romantic encounter with the waitress in the diner.

"Solace, A Mexican Serenade"

Thanks Mel, but I can't open the link to that file.

I'm glad to hear that "Maple Leaf Rag" is easier than "The Entertainer" as I'm a beginner and set "Maple Leaf" as a goal for (hopefully) two years out.

I have the music book "Scott Joplin arranged by Lawrence Rosen: 18 Rags in easier versions". Would I be harming myself to do these simplified versions? Or just stay with basics until I can do the full version?

Thanks much...

Nope, no harm at all and it'll help you develop a feel for playing the rythm of ragtime.

I hate to disagree here, but the Entertainer is probably one of Joplin's easiest rags. Maple leaf, by contrast is one of his hardest.

Part of the reason is that Maple Leaf is written in the key of A-flat, while the Entertainer is in the key of C...it is harder (at first) for musicians to read the 4 flat key sig.

The real reason, though, is that the technical difficulties involved in Maple Leaf like the chord voicings and the rhythmic syncopations are much more advanced than in the Entertainer.

I have seen a much watered-down version of Maple Leaf written in the key of C, but it was so diluted that it was a mere shadow of the real thing...I wouldn't recommend that.

When playing Joplin it really helps to have a relaxed hand. I think Aamsco publishes a version very close to the original where instead of those huge octaves, 6ths are used instead.

I applaud anyone who attempts harder music...just be ready for the long process and don't get discouraged. It might not be a bad idea to also have some easy peices to work on also.

Just a thought..
Hobie

I suggest you get the book "Scott Joplin Complete Piano Rags" Edited by David A. Jasen (Dover: ISBN 0-486-25807-6). Not all of the originals are that much more difficult than those in "Scott Joplin arranged by Lawrence Rosen: 18 Rags in easier versions."

I find "Entertainer" "Maple Leaf" "Cascades" and "Solace" much tougher than "Favorite" or "Paragon" or "Peacherine." Try "Weeping Willow"- a real delight and each section is quite unlike the others. Or "Sunflower Slow Drag" is worth a try as it sounds best when played slowly.

Everybody loves rags!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vintagefingers:
[QB] Arias

You can hear a little snippet of it here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VexRPM2WPho

• Thanks, Vintagefingers, nice video, I checked out the sheet music and it doesnt look too hard to play

• Hobie I agree Entertainer is without a doubt easier to play than the Maple Leaf Rag all because of the key it is written in. With the a,b,d and e flats it makes it harder. The Entertainer being written in the key of c makes it easier to play, just gotta keep those octaves smooth! .

• Famous Pies that book you were talking about for the Scott Joplin Rags is it still the original music? I wouldnt want anything too simplified beause alot of the beautiful sounds of the rag melody is lost.

The music in "Scott Joplin Complete Piano Rags" Edited by David A. Jasen (Dover: ISBN 0-486-25807-6) is all original... and includes the original covers.

Another with all original music is "Classic Piano Rags" selected and with an introduction by Rudi Blesh (Dover: ISBN 0-486-20469-3). This book includes works by many composers including Joplin, Joseph Lamb, James Scott, and 12 others.

In both books the original sheet music covers are reproduced; many take one back to a time of vicious racism.

My favorite David Jasen cover is his own:

http://www.audiophileusa.com/item.cfm?record=45555&c=1&kw=Jazz

... by an artist for all Joplins.

Howard

This is my first post on this particular forum. I'm really just a lurker, but the discussion about "The Entertainer" brought back a fond memory from my childhood that I wanted to share.

When I was about 8 years old, my brother and I had been taking piano lessons for a couple of years. After hearing the music promoting "The Sting", we taught ourselves to play "The Entertainer" as a duet -- he played the left hand notes and I played the right hand notes (neither of us could play the whole thing on our own). We actually played a great deal of popular music this way while we were growing up.

I still have the sheet music and recently practiced it for a while, but it REALLY IS HARD to play if you have small hands. So Gourdo, keep practicing, but don't torture your poor fingers too much. There are some pieces that simply require a big reach (believe me, I can just reach an octave flathanded).

I do remember playing the Maple Leaf Rag years ago -- perhaps it's a more difficult piece but easier for small hands??

If you are into Joplin rags, I would recommend trying out "The Cascades" and "Solace" which are both a bit easier to play than either of the above.

Below is a quote from William Albright, Professor of Music Composition at the University of Michigan who's recording of the Complete Rags of Scott Joplin can be purchased through The Musical Heritage Society Catalog # 522771H. Virtuoso performances and an excellent reference for the student wishing to hear them played correctly. I have several other recordings that are not up to this standard.

"The Cascades is a virtuoso work and one of Joplin's best. Having played it off and on since I was eleven or twelve, I can testify that it doesn't get easier with age!"

What is tough about this piece is the tempo, it is fast! It starts out in C Major going to B Flat Major in the C Section to E Flat Major in the D section.

You can take what I say with a grain of salt What is "easier" about this piece is that it doesn't have those multiple sixteenth octave progressions which are hard to nail with the effortlessness (relaxed hand) that Hobie speaks of. This is the point about playing these rags, there has to be an absolute flow and eveness to pull them off. I suppose this is why it takes so long to learn them.

So far as Solace being as or more difficult than some of the others, I personally disagree. It has a slower pace, nothing too terribly difficult so far as chords go. The only part that is technically difficult, at least for me is the "B" section. I still don't have that flow down but it is gradually improving. Now so far as mastering any of these rags I expect it will be years away but they are just a joy to learn and play.

After looking closely at the score and listening to Mr. Albright play Joplin's Rags, I come back to my original opinion that "Maple Leaf" is the most challenging. My teacher agrees. I don't feel in the least ready to tackle this piece as it would consume too much time.