Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
107 registered (Anne'sson, Almaviva, Allan Sutton, accordeur, angga888, 36251, 37 invisible), 1531 Guests and 14 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Topic Options
#986540 - 09/11/04 06:59 PM Can Someone Help Me With My Homework?
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
I am trying to learn Chopin's Prelude in C Minor, Op. 28, no. 20. I am also trying to learn theory. So my teacher asked me to try to identify the chords in the piece.

Let's just say it is not going well. At all. I have a chord dictionary on my lap and I still can't do it!

Maybe if someone can get me started and explain the step-by-step mechanics of identifying a chord I can get the hang of it. I would appreciate it *so* much if one of the theory experts could look at the first two measures and identify the chords.

I mean, what do you do first when you gaze upon a chord? Do you try to figure out if you're in root position as a first step? What do you do when their are bizarre notes in the chord that don't fit the usual patterns (like the chords in the second measure with the D flat even though the piece is in C Minor). Do you disregard duplicate notes (e.g. the chord has two Cs) and if so, how do you know which one to disregard?

Cindy -- who can finally recognize a first inversion versus a second inversion, and is getting familiar with VII chords, but that's about it
_________________________
Vote For Cindy!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post...QvjrL_blog.html

Top
(ads P/S)

Petrof Pianos

#986541 - 09/11/04 07:36 PM Re: Can Someone Help Me With My Homework?
Mark Davidson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 116
Loc: NC
In this particular piece I'd pay strong attention to the bass notes. There are a lot of passing/non-chord tones in the right hand, but not many in the left.

The short answer is that the first measure is
i-iv7-V7-i in c-minor. The second measure starts with an A-flat chord which functions as a VI in c-minor and a I in A-flat Major (a pivot chord that connects the two keys). The second measure looks like I-IV-V7-I in A-flat Major.

One chord at a time:
M. 1 first beat
As far as figuring out which inversion it is, just consider the bass note. In this case C, so it's root position. chord tones are C, E-flat, G (yes doubled g can be ignored).

2nd beat
Looks like a iv chord, f-minor, except for that darned E-flat, which is the seventh of the chord. Again root position. You're looking for stacked thirds, like f, a-flat, c, e-flat. You can move the F up and the others around as necessary as long as you don't change which is the bottom note in the stack (F).

3rd beat
The top two notes are a dissonant that resolve down to the d and f. g, b, d, f is a G7 chord, which is a V (dominant) in c-minor.

4th beat
c-minor - no tricks here. Ignore the doublings. C is on the bottom so it's root position.

2nd measure
1st beat
A-flat major. VI chord in c-minor, but this is the preparation for a modulation to A-flat.

2nd beat
D-flat major. This is a IV chord in A-flat. Just play the 2nd measure by itself and then hum the note of the key you think you're in. Was it an A-flat?

3rd beat
E-flat 7th chord. D-flat is the seventh, E-flat, g, B-flat are the chord tones. Like the 3rd beat of the first measure, the top two notes (c and e-flat) resolve down to chord tones (B-flat and D-flat).

4th beat
A-flat major chord. Tonic in A-flat.

If you want to relate the 2nd measure back to c-minor, it would be described as VI, IV of VI, V7 of VI, VI (same as I-IV-V7-I in key of VI).

There's a lot going on. in this piece. Try labeling the straightforward chords first (like last chord in 4th measure). Then look at how you can fit the others in. M.6 starts getting into some inversions...

-Mark

Top
#986542 - 09/11/04 07:45 PM Re: Can Someone Help Me With My Homework?
MitchE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/04
Posts: 271
I'm having trouble with this same thing. I'm doing grade 3 harmony, and it makes me feel so stupid. What grade are you doing right now?

By the way, I'm learning this one too. Beautiful, isn't it?

Top
#986543 - 09/11/04 07:47 PM Re: Can Someone Help Me With My Homework?
Mark Davidson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 116
Loc: NC
A fantastic piece, if you can keep the images of Barry Manilow out of your head...

Top
#986544 - 09/11/04 07:50 PM Re: Can Someone Help Me With My Homework?
MitchE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/04
Posts: 271
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Davidson:
A fantastic piece, if you can keep the images of Barry Manilow out of your head... [/b]
:D \:D \:D

Top
#986545 - 09/12/04 01:13 PM Re: Can Someone Help Me With My Homework?
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
Thanks so much, Professor Mark!

I was *way* off. I'll see if I can identify a few more.

Cindy -- who doesn't get the Barry Manilow reference, sadly
_________________________
Vote For Cindy!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post...QvjrL_blog.html

Top
#986546 - 09/12/04 03:08 PM Re: Can Someone Help Me With My Homework?
Mark Davidson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 116
Loc: NC
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
Cindy -- who doesn't get the Barry Manilow reference, sadly [/b]
Count yourself lucky. One of his songs from the 70's ("Could it be magic") used this piece as introduction and closing. So you're either too young or too old. Anyway, if you like this piece then you should never, never, ever listen to that song.

-Mark

Top
#986547 - 09/13/04 01:29 PM Re: Can Someone Help Me With My Homework?
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
Well, I am no longer in music theory kindergarten!

I had my lesson today. We spent about half of it on theory, and finally *finally* FINALLY it clicked! I think I understand how you figure out what each chord is in a piece of music!

We're making some progress by having a Chord Of The Week (last week was dominant seven) where I focus on trying to make that chord in any key.

Now. If I can just translate that into recognizing chords faster when I play, I'll really be on to something.

Elton John, here I come!

Cindy -- who has more written homework in that Chopin piece
_________________________
Vote For Cindy!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post...QvjrL_blog.html

Top
#986548 - 09/13/04 02:59 PM Re: Can Someone Help Me With My Homework?
MitchE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/04
Posts: 271
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
Well, I am no longer in music theory kindergarten!

I had my lesson today. We spent about half of it on theory, and finally *finally* FINALLY it clicked! I think I understand how you figure out what each chord is in a piece of music!

We're making some progress by having a Chord Of The Week (last week was dominant seven) where I focus on trying to make that chord in any key.

Now. If I can just translate that into recognizing chords faster when I play, I'll really be on to something.

Elton John, here I come!

Cindy -- who has more written homework in that Chopin piece [/b]
Congrats! I love it when I spend weeks trying to figure something out, and then one day everything just clicks. I'm having that problem with Chorale writing and structural analysis.

Top
#986549 - 09/13/04 03:57 PM Re: Can Someone Help Me With My Homework?
teachum Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/19/04
Posts: 2913
Loc: idaho
Hey - At least Barry admitted he stole it from Chopin! More than most modern song thiefs do! 11 days till the piano comes, guys! I'm dying. Good going Cindy! I know you are way ahead of me!
_________________________
You will be 10 years older, ten years from now, no matter what you do - so go for it!

Estonia #6141 in Satin Mahogany

Top
#986550 - 09/15/04 03:07 AM Re: Can Someone Help Me With My Homework?
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Cindyspinx has been given the task of identifying the chords in the Chopin Prelude Opus 28, no. 20. The object of the teacher's exercise is presumably to show that the great Masters obey the rules of musical "theory".

But nothing could be further from the truth.

Mark's i-iv7-V7-i analysis of the opening 4 chords tries to support the theory but backfires by the 3rd, 6th and 7th chords with notes foreign to the C minor key.

Theoretical gobbledegook is used to explain away the contradictions.

Books on Harmony cover triads and their inversions but should be regarded as the workings of pedants in a wishful attempt to formulate rules to explain the musical components used in the works of genius - puritanical chords made up of 3 alternating degrees of scale. How dull!!

Careful analysis of the chords of the Prelude 20 show that Chopin can't be contained within any dusty books of rules. However, it's worth noting that even genius can't bend the Laws of Acoustics as the gravitational power of the Tonic starts and ends the famous Prelude.

Top

Moderator:  BB Player, casinitaly 
What's Hot!!
Christmas Header
- > Gift Ideas for Music Lovers < -
From PianoSupplies.com a division of Piano World.
-------------------
The December Free Piano Newsletter
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) Piano Music Sale - Dover Publications
Piano Music Sale
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Crumb's Makrokosmos Vol. II No. V Technical difficulties
by Digital Mozart
12/18/14 08:49 PM
Lifetime Piano Tunings with New Piano Purchase?
by MusicMasters
12/18/14 07:51 PM
Experienced pianist: digital piano to "replace" grand
by integris
12/18/14 05:39 PM
why do I suddenly have clacking bass notes
by music32
12/18/14 04:57 PM
Kawai Digital Piano
by Deegs23
12/18/14 03:28 PM
Forum Stats
77340 Members
42 Forums
159962 Topics
2349206 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission