Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#997318 - 11/25/08 11:37 PM Are These Lines Significant?
Triryche Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 1451
Loc: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
There is a small line under the note stems in the bass clef which are pointing down shown here in measures 55, 57 and 59.




Any idea(s) what, if anything, they indicate?

Thanks!!

Top
(ads P/S)

Sauter Pianos

#997319 - 11/25/08 11:52 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
It's a specialized accent mark to indicate tenuto (slightly stressed and held for full value):

http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory21.htm#accent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_musical_symbols#Articulation_marks

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

Top
#997320 - 11/26/08 12:05 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
Triryche Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 1451
Loc: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Awesome, I learned something new today!! \:\)

Thank You Steven!!

That makes perfect sense!

Top
#997321 - 11/26/08 12:11 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
You are very welcome. I'm glad I could help.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

Top
#997322 - 11/26/08 03:03 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
ROMagister Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 518
Loc: Bucuresti, Romania
And I assume the tenuto applies only to the dotted half-notes, not the 'moving' eighths ?

(Joking) is a passage like this supposed to be played with one hand only ? suppose in measure 59 one 'holds down' the C and G with LH fingers 5 and 4 (awkward) then the moving part of bass clef with LH 3-2-1 ? or RH enters this part - but it has its own notes to play from treble clef...

I had stumbled onto such a piece, with fast and slow parts supposed to cumulate on same hand - and it was really a transcription for organ, where the 'held' part was for pedal.

Top
#997323 - 11/26/08 03:17 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Tenuto is not stressed, just full value. On the piano (which stresses everything) it must not then sound legato (that's kinda what Steven is saying). What the mark is saying is that you must use the pedal to make sure when your RH hand moves to the treble the notes still sing out for their full value.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#997324 - 11/26/08 08:09 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Tenuto is not stressed, just full value. On the piano (which stresses everything) it must not then sound legato (that's kinda what Steven is saying). What the mark is saying is that you must use the pedal to make sure when your RH hand moves to the treble the notes still sing out for their full value. [/b]
kbk,

I don't understand "it must not then sound legato." Did you include the word "not" by accident?

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

Top
#997325 - 11/26/08 10:55 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
On a wind instrument you would soft tongue that tenuto. If you wanted legato you wouldn't tongue at all. On the piano every note is tongued (struck). You mustn't strike so softly that it becomes legato. Unlike a wind instrument, it's all in the context.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#997326 - 11/26/08 11:04 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
You mustn't strike so softly that it becomes legato.[/b]
Under normal circumstances, or in the presence of the tenuto mark in question?

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

Top
#997327 - 11/26/08 11:34 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11655
Loc: Canada
Articulation?

Top
#997328 - 11/26/08 11:57 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by sotto voce:
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
You mustn't strike so softly that it becomes legato.[/b]
Under normal circumstances, or in the presence of the tenuto mark in question?

Steven [/b]
Neither, unless a piece calls for legato playing.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#997329 - 11/26/08 01:07 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Dolmetsch defines the tenuto mark as a legato accent.

If it were used on consecutive notes, would that not be a call for legato playing?

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

Top
#997330 - 11/26/08 03:35 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
No. True legato as a violin or wind instrument gets would result in one long note. Instead these instruments would soft bow/tongue tenuto consecutive notes. The Harvard Dictionary has no mention of accents.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#997331 - 11/26/08 03:49 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11655
Loc: Canada
Could you explain what you mean by the term "soft bow"?

Top
#997332 - 11/26/08 04:00 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
IngridT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/07/08
Posts: 244
Loc: Netherlands
My piano teacher explains tenuto as 'playing the notes as 'long' as possible without creating a legato effect. There HAS to be a 'break'.

Ingrid

Top
#997333 - 11/26/08 04:01 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by keystring:
Could you explain what you mean by the term "soft bow"? [/b]
No.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#997334 - 11/26/08 07:48 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4783
Loc: South Florida
Any marking such as the tenuto is, unfortunately, open to interpretation.

Using the The Harvard Dictionary as the one and only reliable source is questionable.

As to brass, any repeated note must be at least lightly tongued in order to cause enough separation to allow the ear to hear separate notes.

Different notes can be played only with finger changes. No tongue is necessary. Usually notes under a phrase mark indicate no tongue. The exception is when repeated notes ARE under a phrase.

I would personally reserve the tenuto mark for length only, hold full value. Just don't expect all composers to limit use for only length.
_________________________
Piano Teacher

Top
#997335 - 11/26/08 08:47 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
Triryche Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 1451
Loc: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Fortunately for me, the interpretation for the above scenario is fairly straight forward. Especially since I can listen to the the composer's recording.

Great discussion though!!

Thanks again!! \:D

Top
#997336 - 11/27/08 01:26 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gary D.:

Using the The Harvard Dictionary as the one and only reliable source is questionable.[/b]
Well how about The Oxford Companion, The New Oxford Companion, Everyman's Dictionary and Groves then? Not to mention the venerable CPE Bach!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#997337 - 11/28/08 03:29 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4783
Loc: South Florida
None of these sources so much as mention additional weight or emphasis in addition to length? Are the definitions very brief?

Debussy seemed to have used the marks for both. Perhaps there has been a gradual shift in meaning, much as Allegro at some point stopped meaning "cheerful".

I agree with the primary meaning and use the mark that way myself, but limiting the meaning to only length and never to the idea of slight emphasis might easily lead to misinterpreting some of the works of more modern composers.
_________________________
Piano Teacher

Top

Moderator:  BB Player, casinitaly 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
166 registered (ajames, 89grand, 56 invisible), 1377 Guests and 13 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75963 Members
42 Forums
157091 Topics
2306994 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Could you please help my son choose a composition?
by christineka
57 minutes 11 seconds ago
New old Vose and Sons Upright Piano
by RT White
Today at 11:01 AM
Kawai ES100 vs Kawai MP7
by gbitw
Today at 08:28 AM
Better Practice, Hands Together or Separate etc.
by Sionos
Today at 08:04 AM
Timing of the trill Invention no 1
by DreamOfSleeping
Today at 03:55 AM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission