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#997318 - 11/25/08 11:37 PM Are These Lines Significant?
Triryche Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 1451
Loc: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
There is a small line under the note stems in the bass clef which are pointing down shown here in measures 55, 57 and 59.




Any idea(s) what, if anything, they indicate?

Thanks!!

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#997319 - 11/25/08 11:52 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
It's a specialized accent mark to indicate tenuto (slightly stressed and held for full value):

http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory21.htm#accent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_musical_symbols#Articulation_marks

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#997320 - 11/26/08 12:05 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
Triryche Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 1451
Loc: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Awesome, I learned something new today!! \:\)

Thank You Steven!!

That makes perfect sense!

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#997321 - 11/26/08 12:11 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
You are very welcome. I'm glad I could help.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#997322 - 11/26/08 03:03 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
ROMagister Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 518
Loc: Bucuresti, Romania
And I assume the tenuto applies only to the dotted half-notes, not the 'moving' eighths ?

(Joking) is a passage like this supposed to be played with one hand only ? suppose in measure 59 one 'holds down' the C and G with LH fingers 5 and 4 (awkward) then the moving part of bass clef with LH 3-2-1 ? or RH enters this part - but it has its own notes to play from treble clef...

I had stumbled onto such a piece, with fast and slow parts supposed to cumulate on same hand - and it was really a transcription for organ, where the 'held' part was for pedal.

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#997323 - 11/26/08 03:17 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Tenuto is not stressed, just full value. On the piano (which stresses everything) it must not then sound legato (that's kinda what Steven is saying). What the mark is saying is that you must use the pedal to make sure when your RH hand moves to the treble the notes still sing out for their full value.
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#997324 - 11/26/08 08:09 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Tenuto is not stressed, just full value. On the piano (which stresses everything) it must not then sound legato (that's kinda what Steven is saying). What the mark is saying is that you must use the pedal to make sure when your RH hand moves to the treble the notes still sing out for their full value. [/b]
kbk,

I don't understand "it must not then sound legato." Did you include the word "not" by accident?

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#997325 - 11/26/08 10:55 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
On a wind instrument you would soft tongue that tenuto. If you wanted legato you wouldn't tongue at all. On the piano every note is tongued (struck). You mustn't strike so softly that it becomes legato. Unlike a wind instrument, it's all in the context.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#997326 - 11/26/08 11:04 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
You mustn't strike so softly that it becomes legato.[/b]
Under normal circumstances, or in the presence of the tenuto mark in question?

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#997327 - 11/26/08 11:34 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 12085
Loc: Canada
Articulation?

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#997328 - 11/26/08 11:57 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by sotto voce:
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
You mustn't strike so softly that it becomes legato.[/b]
Under normal circumstances, or in the presence of the tenuto mark in question?

Steven [/b]
Neither, unless a piece calls for legato playing.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#997329 - 11/26/08 01:07 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Dolmetsch defines the tenuto mark as a legato accent.

If it were used on consecutive notes, would that not be a call for legato playing?

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#997330 - 11/26/08 03:35 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
No. True legato as a violin or wind instrument gets would result in one long note. Instead these instruments would soft bow/tongue tenuto consecutive notes. The Harvard Dictionary has no mention of accents.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#997331 - 11/26/08 03:49 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 12085
Loc: Canada
Could you explain what you mean by the term "soft bow"?

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#997332 - 11/26/08 04:00 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
IngridT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/07/08
Posts: 244
Loc: Netherlands
My piano teacher explains tenuto as 'playing the notes as 'long' as possible without creating a legato effect. There HAS to be a 'break'.

Ingrid

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#997333 - 11/26/08 04:01 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by keystring:
Could you explain what you mean by the term "soft bow"? [/b]
No.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#997334 - 11/26/08 07:48 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4824
Loc: South Florida
Any marking such as the tenuto is, unfortunately, open to interpretation.

Using the The Harvard Dictionary as the one and only reliable source is questionable.

As to brass, any repeated note must be at least lightly tongued in order to cause enough separation to allow the ear to hear separate notes.

Different notes can be played only with finger changes. No tongue is necessary. Usually notes under a phrase mark indicate no tongue. The exception is when repeated notes ARE under a phrase.

I would personally reserve the tenuto mark for length only, hold full value. Just don't expect all composers to limit use for only length.
_________________________
Piano Teacher

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#997335 - 11/26/08 08:47 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
Triryche Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 1451
Loc: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Fortunately for me, the interpretation for the above scenario is fairly straight forward. Especially since I can listen to the the composer's recording.

Great discussion though!!

Thanks again!! \:D

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#997336 - 11/27/08 01:26 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gary D.:

Using the The Harvard Dictionary as the one and only reliable source is questionable.[/b]
Well how about The Oxford Companion, The New Oxford Companion, Everyman's Dictionary and Groves then? Not to mention the venerable CPE Bach!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#997337 - 11/28/08 03:29 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4824
Loc: South Florida
None of these sources so much as mention additional weight or emphasis in addition to length? Are the definitions very brief?

Debussy seemed to have used the marks for both. Perhaps there has been a gradual shift in meaning, much as Allegro at some point stopped meaning "cheerful".

I agree with the primary meaning and use the mark that way myself, but limiting the meaning to only length and never to the idea of slight emphasis might easily lead to misinterpreting some of the works of more modern composers.
_________________________
Piano Teacher

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