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#997739 - 12/12/04 04:38 PM Metronome
DarenT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 96
Loc: Vancouver, BC
I am trying to play O Sole Mio properly according to the timing as written in Alfred's Level One book. I can play either hand solo fairly well but when I try to play hands together I have a real tough time even though I count out the half beats 1 & 2 & etc. It gets worse when I try to use the metronome (I have a Yamaha PSR 2000). If anyone is familiar with this keyboard can you tell me what tempo I should set the metronome at? And how do you count a dotted note which would be 1 1/2 the metronome beat?

Thank you.
_________________________
Progressing, slowly, but progressing.

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#997740 - 12/12/04 07:44 PM Re: Metronome
Bob Muir Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/03
Posts: 2653
Loc: Lakewood, WA, USA
72 on the quarter note or maybe a bit slower sounds about right for the tempo.

In my book they say at the top of the page how to count it. You count "1 & 2" for the dotted quarter and then "&" for the following 8th note.

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#997741 - 12/12/04 07:46 PM Re: Metronome
Luckychwee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Singapore
Hi Darren

I am just Like YOU ! I just bought the metronome over the weekend and for crochet note I do not see any problem but once it's quaver note my timing seems do not co-ordinate with the beat of the metronome.

I am learning one piece at 2/2 time signature and I play it fairly well without the metronome. But when I try to play with the m.m I get very confused and forget about my fingerings/notes etc etc ... Do you guys face the same problem ???

By the way, there are pieces which only indicate moderato, allegro, allegretto etc etc .... so what is the m.m setting for these ?

Another thing which puzzle me is that when 2 persons play the same piece at let's say "MODERATO" speed, I think different people got different tempo even for the same "moderator'. So is it right for me to say that different person's speed is more or less different even though both of them play the same piece with same tempo.
_________________________
An apple a day keep the doctor away,
A smile a day chase your sadness away,
A chat a day drive all loneliness away,
And a prayer a day never keep our Jesus away
And let's praise our Lord, our King, our God all the way ....

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#997742 - 12/12/04 09:15 PM Re: Metronome
Bob Muir Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/03
Posts: 2653
Loc: Lakewood, WA, USA
Google's a great tool! ;\)
Tempo Markings

Keep in mind that when those terms were invented, the metronome hadn't been yet. So they're rather flexible in their implementation.

There are at least two reasons for differences in tempo: 1. The musical influence of the musician. They may slow a bit or speed a bit to make the piece sound better musically. 2. One performer's definition of Allegro may be slightly different from another's.

It's easier to count after you have the notes down pat. Also, make sure you play very, very slowly at first to make sure you're with the counting properly.

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#997743 - 12/12/04 09:25 PM Re: Metronome
Luckychwee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Singapore
Thanks Bob

I just went to check the tempo marking but how come Andante, Moderato and Allegretto are all the same at 60 ? I read somewhere that moderator is somewhere around 120 and allegretto is faster than moderato. Seems not so right ..... please advise.
_________________________
An apple a day keep the doctor away,
A smile a day chase your sadness away,
A chat a day drive all loneliness away,
And a prayer a day never keep our Jesus away
And let's praise our Lord, our King, our God all the way ....

Top
#997744 - 12/12/04 10:03 PM Re: Metronome
Bob Muir Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/03
Posts: 2653
Loc: Lakewood, WA, USA
It's all relative.

Here's some more information.

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#997745 - 12/13/04 02:36 AM Re: Metronome
katie_dup1 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 1838
Loc: Canada
Thanks for the links Bob .... These are helpful.

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#997746 - 12/13/04 11:31 AM Re: Metronome
DarenT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 96
Loc: Vancouver, BC
I had been trying to use the Metronome at 70 but found it too fast and am now down to 65 for 1/2 beats. That way I can count out the dotted quarter notes and then play the 8th note on the fourth met' beat. At the same time I find just counting 1 & 2 & works as well except that in the long run I know I am going to have to play with more fidelity to the composer's notations to capture the intended effect.

I am still struggling with playing hands together on this tune in particular. I realize that the previous tunes in the book were obviously easier and will just continue to get harder so I might as well face the music \:\) and learn this tune properly before moving on.

My major concern right now is that I am familiar with this piece and therefor can kind of keep close to the rhythym but what is going to happen when I have to play a tune that I have no clue as to what it sounds like. However, I will address that situation when I come to it. So far I feel like I am in Kindergarten and perhaps about ready to graduate into Grade 1. I hope I am able to continue and finish grade school and maybe even higher where the pleasure and satisfaction must be awesome.
_________________________
Progressing, slowly, but progressing.

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#997747 - 12/13/04 11:35 AM Re: Metronome
DarenT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 96
Loc: Vancouver, BC
P.S. Bob, I too found those links informative. And Katie, who the heck is Ralph?
_________________________
Progressing, slowly, but progressing.

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#997748 - 12/13/04 06:40 PM Re: Metronome
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Bob, great metronome sites!

It might be useful to sing along to the metronome, using "air piano," before you start to play the notes on the piano. That way, you'll have a sense of how it all sounds together, before you have to actually play it. If it's too hard, then just slow down the tempo until you can play it without panicking.

It does take some practice to learn to use the metronome, but IMO it's well worth it to learn how.

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#997749 - 12/13/04 07:18 PM Re: Metronome
DarenT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 96
Loc: Vancouver, BC
Hello Nina,

What is an "air piano" and what does IMO stand for?
_________________________
Progressing, slowly, but progressing.

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#997750 - 12/13/04 07:23 PM Re: Metronome
Bob Muir Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/03
Posts: 2653
Loc: Lakewood, WA, USA
She means to hum or sing (like la la la, etc.) the notes along with the metronome.

IMO means "in my oppinion". IMHO means "in my humble oppinion".

But as she said the trick really is to slooooowwww doooowwwwnnnn until you nail it with the metronome. Once you have the rhythm down, you can speed it up in fairly short order.

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#997751 - 12/13/04 07:57 PM Re: Metronome
DarenT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 96
Loc: Vancouver, BC
Thanks Bob, after awhile I will get to know piano or web argot. And you are right about slowing down. I am a bit of a hare and find slowing down goes against my nature but am learning that it is the best way to master each measure, measure by measure.
_________________________
Progressing, slowly, but progressing.

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#997752 - 12/13/04 09:59 PM Re: Metronome
Jerry Luke Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 969
Loc: Tillamook, Oregon
I finished this piece last month. I could not get the melody right until I realized that the tune is the same one used for that song "It's Now or Never". Once I could sing along with it, the timing fell into place.

I think I set the metronome to 60 and set the clicks to 8 per measure. That way, I could count the eighth notes properly.
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Support our troops!

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#997753 - 12/13/04 10:05 PM Re: Metronome
Bob Muir Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/03
Posts: 2653
Loc: Lakewood, WA, USA
Don't worry Daren, all of us do it. We start learning a section and we want it up to tempo so badly that we start going too fast and of course we start making mistakes. We think that all we have to do is keep playing the same section over and over at that speed (with mistakes of course) and eventually it'll "come together" and be perfect.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. Yes, you'll eventually be able to play the section at speed, but you'll have mistakes creep in one or two at a time every single time you play the piece. What's worse is that the mistake might be in a different place every time.

For something like O Sole Mio, it doesn't matter a whole lot. I mean who cares if we make a mistake in such a simple piece, right? The problem is that we're learning the WRONG way of learning our repertoire piece as well!

A great pianist was once asked how he played such complex pieces without making a mistake and he replied that it was simply because he didn't practice playing mistakes. What he meant was that when he practiced, it was with complete concentration on playing the correct notes at the correct tempo every single time he practiced the piece.

It's amazing how quickly our fingers "learn" a mistake. All it takes is one slip and we have a running mistake in our fingers at that spot. It takes many, many repetitions to undo it, and sometimes, it seems like the mistake will never go away completely.

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#997754 - 12/13/04 11:04 PM Re: Metronome
DarenT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 96
Loc: Vancouver, BC
"....how he played such complex pieces without making a mistake and he replied that it was simply because he didn't practice playing mistakes. What he meant was that when he practiced, it was with complete concentration on playing the correct notes at the correct tempo every single time he practiced the piece."

Bob, that is the most profound, relevant quotation I have heard and certainly applicable in my case. I will heed that advice. You are very insightful and communicate well. Thank you.
_________________________
Progressing, slowly, but progressing.

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#997755 - 12/13/04 11:13 PM Re: Metronome
Luckychwee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Singapore
I faced the same problem cos my teacher asked me to play the oh the saint marching at page 27 at adult level one. Well, to me I feels that I am playing correctly even though I count 2,3,4 - 1,2,3,4 but somehow or rather my teacher says it's wrong. I cant even detect that I was wrong ... you get what I mean ???
_________________________
An apple a day keep the doctor away,
A smile a day chase your sadness away,
A chat a day drive all loneliness away,
And a prayer a day never keep our Jesus away
And let's praise our Lord, our King, our God all the way ....

Top
#997756 - 12/14/04 02:28 AM Re: Metronome
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3206
Loc: Virginia, USA
I use 80 to the quarter note as a starting point.

Then I watch for where I have trouble.

Stop the metronome, and work out just that measure, sometimes just those two notes, for as long as it takes me to get them right.

Then turn the metronome back on and try again. Now the stumble will be somewhere else. Repeat until perfect all the way through. Then move to 90. Sometimes a stumble will reappear, or a new one will pop up. Repeat as needed. It takes a long time, at least for me.

But if you can't do it with the metronome, you really aren't playing it. By the way, it's memorized long before I get to the end stage.
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#997757 - 12/14/04 06:34 AM Re: Metronome
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Muir:
She means to hum or sing (like la la la, etc.) the notes along with the metronome.

IMO means "in my oppinion". IMHO means "in my humble oppinion".

But as she said the trick really is to slooooowwww doooowwwwnnnn until you nail it with the metronome. Once you have the rhythm down, you can speed it up in fairly short order. [/b]
Close, but no cigar! \:\)

Actually, by "air piano," I meant to pretend to play the piano (trying to "hit" the actual notes) but have your fingers on a tabletop, your leg, something like that. One of the challenges to learning the metronome is the skill of physically responding to the ticking. At first it has an annoyingly mesmerizing quality that makes it hard to play to, plus the little sucker never stops, does it! \:\)

If you can get in the habit of hearing how the tune lands on the beats then it's often easier to play the real thing afterward.

Just an idea.

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#997758 - 12/14/04 07:21 AM Re: Metronome
Bob Muir Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/03
Posts: 2653
Loc: Lakewood, WA, USA
Ah, good idea Nina. Get the muscles going without the additional distraction of hitting notes.

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