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Question: "If one considers purchasing an Estonia and one has a sensitive hearing, should one also make sure to have a very good tuner-technician at hand?" Thre is a recent thread on this forum about plare ringing which derived soon to a discussion on duplex scales (see 17thy post by Del): http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/19254.html Particularly on the tunable front duplex this is what Del says: The so-called tuned duplex front and back scales (especially the front) are responsible for many complaints of objectionable string noises and buzzes, and various whistles and dissonant resonances. The problem at the front string termination is that with some designs the speaking segment of the string is made deliberately inefficient. In theory this allows some energy to bleed across the V-bar into what is called the aliquot string (aliquot: a quantity which can be divided into another an integral number of times) string segment. This vibrating energy is then supposed to return to the speaking segment and somehow reinforce it.
There are some problems with the system. It is extremely sensitive to the shape and/or contour of the V-bar. Slight irregularities that have no effect on more efficient string termination systems (those with higher string deflection angles and/or shorter duplex string segments) can cause a variety of buzzes and whistles. If the front duplex is not tuned accurately (and from a practical perspective it is impossible to make and keep them so) the vibrating frequency of the aliquot string will be a dissonant and an out of tune harmonic will ring out with a tone that is often irritating to the ear. As well, these systems are also inherently lossy. That is, they bleed energy from the speaking string and, while some of this energy might make its way back to the speaking string, a good share of it is lost to the gray iron plate (which, as has been noted elsewhere, has excellent vibration damping characteristics).
While some pianists do appreciate the tone qualities contributed by a functioning tuned duplex system, others dislike them to the point of distraction. If the piano owner does find all of these string noises and enharmonic tones ringing out objectionable, one solution is to make the string termination more efficient. This can be done by either increasing the string deflection angle across the V-bar or by making the duplex string segment shorter. This involves moving the front counterbearing bar. In some pianos the front counterbearing bar is adjustable and the duplex string segment can be shorter fairly easily. In others it is part of the iron casting and things become more difficult; they must be ground off and new bars fit in their stead. Knowing the Estonias have such a "Movable double duplex" I wonder if one wants to avoid such "string noises and enharmonic tones", having a high qualified tuner-technician (either from the dealer or an independent one) is not imperative if not wanting to be disappointed? schwammerl.
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I would run from that possiblity: "those with higher string deflection angles and/or shorter duplex string segments) can cause a variety of buzzes and whistles. If the front duplex is not tuned accurately (and from a practical perspective it is impossible to make and keep them so) the vibrating frequency of the aliquot string will be a dissonant and an out of tune harmonic will ring out with a tone that is often irritating to the ear." like the plague! :t:
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"Tunable duplexes" gives the tuner/technician more "knobs and sliders" to play with, gives them more things to tweak to customize a piano (theoretically). At the same time, it also gives those who don't know what they're doing more opportunities to screw up (Murphy's Law?).
Do you want a one button, automatic-everything "point and shoot" camera or one with a gazillion menu options with tons of manual this-and-that?
It's a classic trade off.
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Being a dealer for Estonia and having sold a large number of these pianos,
I can thruthfully say that none of the above has ever become as much as a point of concern, let alone a *problem* for either ourselves or our customers.
Everybody knows that Estonia is today one of the finest pianos on the market with their R&D department looking at the absolutely smallest details of refinement at virtually all times.
Estonia, in particular, has been one of the very few companies to not only constantly react to feedback from their dealers - but also making constant and very substantial improvements as a result of their own ongoing research and development.
It is not very likely that they would have overlooked any one area of concern for their pianos - knowing full well that the constant feedback from dealers - and acting on it immediately - has been part of their very success.
Norbert
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Can anyone comment on why Steinway after coming up with this approach in 1872, later abandoned it for (most of) their grand pianos? Or how and why Fazioli's or M&H's implementation of it is different to that of Estonia?
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Piano makers like many car manufacturers, develop their own ideas and *ideals* over time. It may have to do with all kinds of *reasons* -nobody on the outside will ever completely fully understand the whole thing. And those 'inside' don't always talk....  Steinway fits their sounboard *into* their frames, Grotrians builds the frame *around* them. It's an endless array of variety and "difference" of making things. Every manufacturer has "his way" and "his reason" - known or unknown at times to even himself - for doing just so. One hardly ever finds independenly veryfiable factors to measure these steps or processes, let alone *agreement* - it is always seems to be a whole host of factors and circumstances that make a piano the way it is. Or will finally be.... Norbert
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Oh my goodness.
I thought the naughty question on Estonia would be how strong the lid was. :p
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Is there any reason you would not want to have a good tuner-technician, no matter what piano you have?
Semipro Tech
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Many high-quality pianos, original Webers, for example, adopted a tunable duplex scale via individually movable aliquot wedges.
Steinway used this idea, but because of the additional trouble that they inherently caused during manufacture, they abandoned individual aliquots for cast metal bars, each comprising an entire section of duplex bridges. Their feeling was that with a bridge that is accurately installed and a duplex bar that is carefully placed , the same result would be achieved with far less hassle.
Others felt that the colors that can be gained by accurately tuning individual aliquots made it worth the trouble. Small variations in humidity can cause duplex scales to move in pitch more rapidly than the speaking scale, and small changes of the string tension on the non-speaking side of the bridge are possible with individual aliquots.
My 2 cents,
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This is interesting. When I was shopping for a piano (pretty much all brands price-wise from YC Pramberger to Schimmel), I would notice there would always be at least one string that if it were struck hard enough, would result in a bit of a buzz. I was beginning to think that any piano that had this was defective - until I realized that all pianos exhibited this behavior. (I even remembered my Charles Walters console having one note that was a bit funny.)
I did notice that some pianos would have more than one note that had this problem. The Petrof IV that I ended up buying only had one note (Bb at 116.451 Hz), and it was less than pretty much all the other pianos. I figure that a good tech will be able to do something to get rid of it.
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Swampwiz, I too have had the same experience. Some buzz/resonate badly more than others, but "ALL" pianos had this. Kawai has this in a few of their keys right below middle C. Is there really such a piano that has NO BAD NOTES? If so, I'd buy it today!!!!  and even thought it might sound good today, tommorrow as the humdity fluctuates, the notes become worse or better!
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Anyhow what swampwiz describes on the Petrof IV can hardly have anything to do with the front duplex because as far as I know Petrof doesn't use neither front nor back duplexes on that model.
schwammerl.
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My Estonia used to exhibit some of these problems in the notes just below middle C. Sort of a nasal quality, hard to describe. Also some high ringing overtones in a couple of notes up the keyboard a ways. However, these problem notes seem to fluctuate with humidity, as Markey suggests. With the humidity in the ideal range (mid 40s), as it is in the summer (now), the problems have virtually disappeared along with some annoying action and pedal noises which also vanished when Spring arrived. It's also possible that these transient issues were just part of the settling in process. In any case, I will be working to maintain this ideal humidity in my house as winter approaches.
Strange beasts, pianos...
Buy some good stock and hold it till it goes up, then sell it. If it don't go up, don't buy it. Will Rogers ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/ABF_Medals/2medals.jpg)
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Originally posted by BDB:
Is there any reason you would not want to have a good tuner-technician, no matter what piano you have? Don't think the problem is with "wanting" a good tuner-technician, but with "having access to" a good tuner-technician.
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What Axtremus said Don't think the problem is with "wanting" a good tuner-technician, but with "having access to" a good tuner-technician.
is spot on! From visiting this forum and the tuners-technicians forum one has the impression good techs are all around in the U.S.; I hope that might be true. Where I live they are not all that easy to find. I learned from experience that finding the best possible after-sales service (either from the dealer directly or an independent tech) is equally important as finding the instrument that suits you best. Because in Belgium there is no formal education system for piano techs or tech association there is a shortage on the market. One can learn the job abroad (Germany, the Netherlands, France, UK) or from being employed by a dealer and getting trained in a dealership. So most competent techs are employed by dealers, the few (you don't need more than the fingers of one hand to count them) independent ones are difficult to find and sometimes not accessible in that if that particular tech would need 2 hrs travelling to come to your home and needs 2 hrs travelling back, he would have to charge you often more for travel expenses than he would have for the specific intervention he has to carry out. The free choice of the piano you would really want to own is in fact hampered by this situation. I you want to have access to the adequate services a dealer provides, your choices are limited to the brands he carries (or the the used pianos he sells). Should your first choice be a brand which is sold by a dealer from whom you know the technical competences he can offer are not what they should be you are bound to make sure you can rely on one of those "hard to find" independent techs who should at the same time preferably be a bit familiar with the brand you intend to acquire, because I think it is fair to assume every brand has it's own pecularities. E.g. a tech who has serviced for 98% of his time Yamahas but never seen an Estonia in his live (extremely likely with perhaps only 5 instruments around in the country), being confronted for the first time in his life with e.g. a movable double duplex, might also be a risky choice. schwammerl.
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If in doubt, I think the best idea would be to leave the moveable duplex parts alone. I have a very experienced tech who won't touch them. I trust him as he has worked my piano up to it's current state over 6 visits since new. I think he thinks that fooling with them is a recipe for trouble. He didn't actually say that but when I ask him about them he justs smiles and says they are fine the way the factory placed them.
Buy some good stock and hold it till it goes up, then sell it. If it don't go up, don't buy it. Will Rogers
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S.O.said: He didn't actually say that but when I ask him about them he justs smiles and says they are fine the way the factory placed them. Try an experiment: Use a guitar pick, a toothpick, or a piece of cardboard as a plectrum - pluck one of the higher treble strings on either side of the aliquot. You should hear a perfect octave, or an octave and a fifth, etc. as an interval between the speaking length of the string and the same string on the other side of the aliquot. If these intervals are not in tune, then your piano would benefit from adjusting the aliquots. The difference is a fine one, and most techs. simply do not want to get involved because it can be a tedious process, especially on the first few pianos that they perform this service on. Bottom line is - if the tech. feels uncomfortable making these adjustments, do not have him experiment on your piano. I hope that helps,
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Thanks Rich, I'll try that. Maybe my tech has already done that and decided they are tuned properly the way they are.
btw, I don't hear any problems or issues with the tuning or sound of my piano at this time that might be attributable to untuned duplexes.
Buy some good stock and hold it till it goes up, then sell it. If it don't go up, don't buy it. Will Rogers
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Originally posted by schwammerl: Question: "If one considers purchasing an Estonia and one has a sensitive hearing, should one also make sure to have a very good tuner-technician at hand?"
Thre is a recent thread on this forum about plare ringing which derived soon to a discussion on duplex scales (see 17thy post by Del): http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/19254.html
Particularly on the tunable front duplex this is what Del says:
The so-called tuned duplex front and back scales (especially the front) are responsible for many complaints of objectionable string noises and buzzes, and various whistles and dissonant resonances....
schwammerl. I don't have broad working experience on the various Estonia pianos. However, I am not aware that any of them are particularly susceptible to the string noises of which I spoke. ddf
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)
Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon
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