|
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
78 members (beeboss, brdwyguy, benkeys, Abdulrohmanoman, accordeur, Animisha, Anglagard44, 15 invisible),
2,099
guests, and
469
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,332
3000 Post Club Member
|
OP
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,332 |
I was surprised by a recent discussion on the Piano Technicians Guild Forum - at a recent Board meeting the Tests standards committee was directed to develop a new version of the exam that would allow ETD on all parts of the exam except unisons.
As an aural tuner and one who is interested in keeping the aural tuning tradition alive I had a knee jerk reaction about this. However, quite a few technicians have responded favorably. The main argument is that it will encourage more people to take the exam and will result in a more active membership.
I'm curious at whether this change, if implemented, would cause non-member technicians to consider joining? Is the aural temperament requirement the main reason some of you don't join, or are there other more important reasons.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577 |
Are the ETD exam taking technicians going to be labeled as such, and potentially treated as 'second-class-technicians?' Or will they be RPTs like the others?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758 |
It's a pity. I've been called numerous times by unhappy piano owners who hired a tuner who did a bad job using an ETD.
There are two major problems I have found in these cases. First: unstability, unisons have drifted. Second: bad sounding octaves, soundboard moved, they did a single pass tuning or they failed the second pass or even worst they failed at matching the iH of the piano.
The point here is that they are not being professional. They tune the piano to the ETD and they leave, they do not check their work to see if there is something wrong.
ETD tuners must at least have the aural skills to check if they did a good job using an ETD. They must know how a piano responds to a pitch raise, they have to develope a good tuning stability and they have to know how to set the ETD to match the piano's iH.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
9000 Post Club Member
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230 |
Or they should switch to WT before understanding how to obtain a good tuning, as this is far from being evident ETD or no. With enough training and some good models to use temperament must cease to be a nightmare, and a tuner must be capable of tuning from any note, using whatever primary interval he wish, without stressing unduly. This in my experience cannot happen when relying to ETD because ETD do not think, nor smell, touch or hear. One tuner said "I can" see he tone" well let's say I can smell it so it will be as obscure and incomprehensible I think there is a huge lack of correct masters. I also think that listening have been too much replaced with "partial matching" that create some unnatural sounding or gives listening habits that can be counter productive, musically speaking. The ETD just push that method to its limits. Hence many tunings where what I hear is a tone that do not escapes well of the installed structure. Wishing to give some laxative to the piano then.
Last edited by Olek; 06/15/14 06:07 AM.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,082
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,082 |
I was surprised by a recent discussion on the Piano Technicians Guild Forum - at a recent Board meeting the Tests standards committee was directed to develop a new version of the exam that would allow ETD on all parts of the exam except unisons.
As an aural tuner and one who is interested in keeping the aural tuning tradition alive I had a knee jerk reaction about this. However, quite a few technicians have responded favorably. The main argument is that it will encourage more people to take the exam and will result in a more active membership.
I'm curious at whether this change, if implemented, would cause non-member technicians to consider joining?
No. (Neither when I was active nor now.) Is the aural temperament requirement the main reason some of you don't join, [?]
Aural temperament requirement has nothing to do with it. or are there other more important reasons.[?]
There are reasons - one not necessarily more important than the other. (If the Guild is really interested in what we think then they should ask. If not, then further explanation seems pointless.)
Last edited by bkw58; 06/15/14 09:07 AM. Reason: clarity
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,567
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,567 |
The main argument is that it will encourage more people to take the exam and will result in a more active membership.
What is so important for them to make more technicians JOIN? (btw I must say that I don't clearly understand what is meant by joining) Isn't it possible that one can join and be an associative member without taking the exam? Isn't The Exam for the RPT title?
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
7000 Post Club Member
|
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439 |
Does the PTG test for becoming an RPT only involve tuning? Or is it more comprehensive and involve repairs, regulation, minor voicing, etc. I would hope that pin-setting, hammer-technique and the finer facets of the tuning process would be included in the 'tuning exam.'
Not being a technician, I won't voice an opinion of ear vs. EDT.
Marty in Minnesota
It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577 |
RPTs have other rudimentary test, but no voicing--which would be hard to evaluate in an exam setting. Pin setting and hammer technique would be a matter of evaluating stability, which they do test and measure.
A technician can do a good job, that is more stable, with an ETD earlier in their career, than with aural skills--which takes longer to develop. If the PTG wants to be more inclusive, that's great...but, they should be inclusive then, and not treat them despairingly (i.e., I've notice this with Associate vs. RPT). It's a good idea that would potentially bring in a younger generation of technicians into the fold.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,845
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,845 |
Greetings, There is something fine, and even empowering about being able to arrange our 12 notes in a perfectly equal relationship. (I use the word "perfect" with about .2 cents looseness, as so few could tell the difference between this loose of a temperament and the ideal that I consider the point to be moot.) An equal temperament is the manifestation of a human coming to grips with imperfection. When we master the art of tuning, we show that we have an ability to judge musical notes well enough to overcome these imperfections, demonstrated by the equal allotment we are able to give all notes and intervals. It is an elegant, unforgiving, quest, with pride and frustration competing for our attention. Steely resolve and discipline is required but if we want to refine our expertise to the limit, there is no getting around the honing of our judgement against the whetstone of Pythagoras' comma.
There are individuals whose image of themselves required that they step into this dragon's lair and engage it. These people know that failure is far easier than success, and there may be few customers that give a rat's ass about some dead dragon. It doesn't matter: the striving for that last perfectly tuned fifth to fall into place, giving us an octave, fifth, third, fourth, and sixth that fall in line with all their kin, is an indispensable part of of mastery. The journey we complete has no cheering crowds, no exaltations, no pot of gold. The only finish line available is the feeble tape of the PTG tuning exam. We do this for ourselves, mostly.
Removing the requirement that members go through this process will reduce the rigors of the journey to virtually nil. It will not affect those of us that have already subjected ourselves to peer review, but it will rob many future techs of an attainment, an accomplishment. Yes, they will be able to pass the test, but it will say nothing about their resolve or commitment to the art. I suspect it will allow a lot of less committed members to call themselves RPT. Whether the Guild is better off with a large membership of leniently passed RPTS, or a smaller group of more rigorously filtered ones is not my call. I don't know which would be better for the trade or PTG, but I do know that I am glad I took the time an effort to prove to myself I could do this.
Last edited by Ed Foote; 06/15/14 11:28 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,714
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,714 |
The hearing/listening part of piano tuning is not difficult. Once you have practiced the proper aural testing methods it becomes second nature. The difficult part of tuning is controlling the tuning pin and string segments. Proper use of an ETD can greatly help one learn this.
I don't know why so many ETD tuners are afraid to tune intervals aurally. Once you master unison tuning and stability just sit down at a piano for a couple of days and keep setting temperament across the entire piano until you get it.
We could modify the tuning test to eliminate the need of tuning the whole piano. Replace the temperament test by testing for the ability to do partial matching to arrive at specific beat rate relationships between pairs of intervals. Have about a hundred different exam intervals grouped into twenty different exams so PTG has a new exam for repeat takers.
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible. According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed. Contact: toneman1@me.com
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
9000 Post Club Member
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230 |
is not the RPT title submitted to an annual fee ?
I don't understand that part, if that is the case, unless there are tests to pass regularly, and I don't think so.
Is it because the exam is not an official university or sort of official diploma ? in the whole Europe the piano tuner diploma(s) are +- similar, have a similar value (in theory) .
The school located in France is said ITEMM "European technology istitute for musical trade" , then that year I think , there will be a recognizing as university level for a diploma including one year more , probably on the model of the Ludwisburg school final degree. That was due to the Europiano organisation, an AFARP for France.
SO in that case the diploma is more evolving to more knowledge, not the opposite.
Last edited by Olek; 06/15/14 01:47 PM.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 543
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 543 |
I joined a while back as an associate member, but did not renew my membership when it came due again. Teaching school full time made it pretty much impossible to attend any meeting, which for me would have been an hour and a half away. I was also interested in attending the PTG convention, but found it way too pricey. The two conventions that I attend as a music teacher (Missouri Music Educators Convention & Missouri Choral Directors Convention) are about a quarter of the price of the PTG convention and my school pays for my registration, hotel room, mileage and meals.
The idea of having to set a temperament by ear was the main reason I never had a desire to become an RPT. It would be nice to be able to put RPT after my name, but none of my customers around here would even know what those letters stand for anyway. No one has ever asked me about it.
Last edited by Ryan Hassell; 06/15/14 04:54 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 970
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 970 |
If you're keeping a tally - Speaking as a past associate member it would not change anything for me. There are other reasons I wouldn't join.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,567
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,567 |
As a customer, I had sought for an aural tuner a few months ago, but unfortunately could not find one, and ended up with my piano being tuned by Tunelab.
I even tried to convince two university tuners to try aural tuning. One of my arguments was that this was a mandatory part of the PTG exam. We exchanged a few mails about the Steinway method and Bill Bremmer's method; but, both of them being long time ETD tuners, they lost interest, and eventually did not respond to any of my emails after a while.
So, for me, now, it is a pity to hear these news about the PTG exam.
Last edited by Hakki; 06/15/14 05:03 PM. Reason: typo. Thanks bkw58
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,082
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,082 |
I know it's a typo but, ROTFL. [typo corrected ]
Last edited by bkw58; 06/15/14 05:38 PM. Reason: added info. Thanks Hakki
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,515
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,515 |
I was surprised by a recent discussion on the Piano Technicians Guild Forum - at a recent Board meeting the Tests standards committee was directed to develop a new version of the exam that would allow ETD on all parts of the exam except unisons.
As an aural tuner and one who is interested in keeping the aural tuning tradition alive I had a knee jerk reaction about this. However, quite a few technicians have responded favorably. The main argument is that it will encourage more people to take the exam and will result in a more active membership.
I'm curious at whether this change, if implemented, would cause non-member technicians to consider joining? Is the aural temperament requirement the main reason some of you don't join, or are there other more important reasons. It makes some sense if the only goal of the exam is to insure that a RPT can get a customers piano in tune, regulate it, and make small repairs. Kees
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,332
3000 Post Club Member
|
OP
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,332 |
That is a good point, Kees. This discussion really gets me to think about "What is the goal of the tuning exam?". From my point of view I see the value is more for the technician than the client. One of the most enjoyable aspects of administering tuning exams is to watch an examinee's face light up when they are told that they have passed - most are beaming!
In practically all cases people who make the effort to go through the process are utterly convinced of its value. The personal growth aspect of it, combined with the deeper understanding of the tuning craft is the real benefit of the exam.
That being said, if I was unable to tune my own piano and I had to choose between an aural who passed the exam at 85%, or a tuner that could pass the exam at 95% with an ETD, I'd take the ETD tuner! (assuming that both have comparable stability skills).
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,677
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,677 |
I don't in any way want to discount tuning and temperament skills, but the ability to diagnose problems and handle them with skill and lack of theatrics is often much more important to customers than tuning refinements which they can barely understand.
I have some customers who would take the 85% tuner if he could just fix that darned sticking G#. 'Course if the 95% ETD tech could fix it to, that would be the better choice. The problem? I could count on the fingers of one one hand the customers who would know the difference.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
7000 Post Club Member
|
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439 |
The concept from down the street at the Piano Forum.
When there are questions about finding tuners, or technicians for inspections, the PTG is always one of the recommendations. That, and piano teachers/stores for tuning, and stores or music schools for finding a tech. BUT - the PTG is always included in the recommendation, often with a link to the website. Those questions are from people who want a better source than yellowpages.com.
The PTG does carry weight in the piano community and an RPT certification is respected to at least bring a certain level of competency, through examination, to the consumer. You would be surprised at how quickly a new piano owner starts to look for, and demand, those three letters behind a name.
The piano public also has no idea of what is involved in a tuning or even a small repair. But with the Guild, the customer feels that there has been adequate education and the minimum standards have been met.
If suddenly the PTG lowers its expectations of mastered skills, and aural tuning is a mastered skill, the image and reputation of the Guild suffers. When people hire a tuner, they are hiring an ear. That is the expectation whether you agree with it or not. An ETD is a valuable tool, no doubt, but the customer assumes that a tuner who has been trained to listen, and not just defer to the judgment read from a video screen is superior. That's just the way it goes for the most part.
Whether the customer can hear minute differences and variations in intervals is irrelevant. The confidence in the tuner, and the trust placed in the tuner's skills, are what is important.
I fear that if the standards are loosened, it will soon get around that certified tuners are no longer trained to have a good ear and that "tuners aren't as good as they used to be." That is an image that I'm sure none of you want to portray.
There is no way for us outside of the Guild to have any input into the discussion other than through threads like this. The PTG has built a great reputation and it would be unfortunate if that image began to chip away, rather than building the image to expect more from what goes with the certification of RPT.
Again, from the outside, maybe there should be a category such as PTS-Piano Tuning Specialist, to remove "Technician" from the certification and be less stringent on aural requirements. At least, that wouldn't dilute the stature of those who meet the current RPT standards.
Again, as a non-tuner/tech, I have often wondered why there isn't a category such as Master Piano Technician; an individual whose primary focus is very fine regulation, voicing, and rebuilding.
Remember gang, I'm only offering my opinion as one of the people who hires you for your services. Most of you know that I am passionate about the piano and all of the associated skills and professions. Please don't dis me because I have expressed my thoughts on this matter.
Marty in Minnesota
It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,714
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,714 |
Thank you Marty for your insights. I couldn't agree more. A piano technician is expected to have highly discerning and skilled auditory reflexes. Without the aural skills how would anyone program a new ETD for piano tuning use?
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible. According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed. Contact: toneman1@me.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,405
Posts3,349,434
Members111,637
|
Most Online15,252 Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|