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Hi folks--

I absolutely love my two year old Estonia 190. But one issue I've noticed is that sometimes, when I execute a fast trill or repeated note, the note jams up. Below is a short video demonstrating the problem.

I went back to the dealer recently to talk to him about this, and to my surprise, it was happening on other Estonias in his store too!

I'd love to get some professional opinions. Have you seen this before? Does it tend to occur in certain kinds of pianos? Is it a real flaw, or just something one puts up with? Is it just a common trade-off for gaining increased sensitivity by having the hammer release the key so close to the string?

Thanks!

That is the back check catching the hammer on the way up. It is usually a regulation problem, but it can be caused by a number of things in the regulation process.

The action is built by Renner, so it is not a design flaw by Estonia or anything like that. As BDB suggests, a good technician will be able to sort that out for you. After that he can do a bunch more at the store.. ...which store was that, by the way?

It is not a "common trade-off for gaining increased sensitivity by having the hammer release the key so close to the string?"

The piano needs to be set up properly.

I can only assure that the Estonia dealers I know in California would only be too happy to help.

If you pm me the name of dealer, I will make sure you'll be looked after. It's easily fixed by some extra regulation...

Norbert

Concur!

The hammer is being grabbed by the backcheck, a geometry issue in the regulation. Most likely; the backcheck is a teensy, and I do mean a tiny amount, too close to the tail of the hammer. Your backcheck is fouling on the hammer when the two should not touch.

It is a minor regulation issue...which only means making 88 adjustments, as usual.
:>)

Yr. svt.,
I am,

Thanks for the feedback, folks.

It's interesting that people say it's a straight-forward regulation issue. My technician, who I think is excellent and very knowledgable, was unable to resolve the problem completely.

Norbert, thanks for the offer; I'd love to PM you... could you clear some PM space?

Thanks,

-J

A very likely possibility, but . . .

It could be symptomatic of a hammer line that was a bit too low after felt settling -- particularly the knuckle and the wippen heel. In that case, a quick capstan regulation would take care of it.

As has been said -- whatever it is, it is strictly minor.

I have this problem too on my grand particularly on fast trills. If I recall correctly, when the key is stuck, the hammer is actually caught below the normal catch height, sometimes even below the resting hammer line!! After many different adjustments, still no way of getting rid of this issue.

I'm not sure of your technique. The key has to reach high enough point in it's up travel before the jack can reset. When performing trills you want to keep your fingers "in" the keys, but at the height point that the jacks reset. My experience is that this reset point is very even on Estonia's.

I'll look at the video again.

dont worry I have seen a similar problem on a very high end new grand, stay unnoticed by the very good german tech that came to regulate it.

the effect was not so apparent, just too much of a "whip" effect when the hammer is driven to the strings , and the heads where voiced to death to correct that.
(your tone have a ùay be slightly incomplete attack when played forte for the same reason probably but it can be just the youtube sound on a notebook !)
a
things that should be checked and that are , usually, but can be modified for instance if the checking of hammers are to be modified due top the desire of the customer to have a slightly less deep key dip (that was the case in the grand I have seen)

Another possibility is that the center of the key frame have raised with seasonal change, this is not uncommon, this is only (sadly !) normal with most grands (more than 200 years of piano building and we cannot help the key frame to move with seasons !) !

That said and looking at the video a second time, what you are doing on it is the test for jacks position and freeness, as it test the correct return of the jack under almost extreme condition.
insufficient play or jack located too much toward front can be noticed with that kind of check (then no relation with backcheck jam, which is only the result of the jack not tripping back)


centers too stiff for some reason, bad jack return (this one is less prone to happen but, particularly with clp, use I'have seen centers that did not like the stuff after a few months) clp is mostly good for key bushings, for my opinion.

It's a fair point, and it's certainly true that I'm trilling "very close to the keys". Part of my question here is: Is what's happening here my fault or the piano's? Am I asking something unfair of it here, by not letting the first note of the trill all the way up?

But consider this: I have never, ever had this happen to me before on any other piano. In 30 years of playing (mostly Steinways and a Grotrien). Only on Estonias, and it's happened on more than one.

(Though I feel the need now to repeat: I *love* this piano. It just has a few issues, like a brilliant, sensitive but unstable poet.)

-J

There are a number of things that can cause this, and they should be checked during regulation. They include jacks set too far forward, weak repetition springs or too much friction on them, too much aftertouch, poorly shaped hammer tails with poorly positioned backchecks, tight center pin joints in the repetition lever, as well as other joints.

Not your technique, I find brillant and adequate, on the youtube recording of Schuman if it is you.

A grand piano is not supposed to jam as long as the pressure is released from the key the hammer is ready to play, indeed with heavy hammers or slightly degraded regulation it can jam but I see you are feeling correctly the hammers inertia when playing so this may not be an issue.

SOme regulations that are tweaked to provide an easy "pearled" tone can provide a less good repetition, this can happen if the key frame is under more tension that the action can accept . some designs accept that the action frame and keyframe are slightly put under tension to provide more nervousness in tonal response (and may be a faster touch)
SOme others need absolutely no internal stress to the action.
It is a natural tendency for the techs once they understood how to tweak the tone and action feel with the glide bots/stress regulation, to use that trick at every occasion even on instruments that dont appreciate it.
Then with a little change in humidity the action is out of its normal parameters. (it can also happens without any tech intervention)

I helped recently by phone a customer who own a 2 years old Grotrian 190 that was tweaked in "Steinway style" by a tech, the pianist was seriously thinking of selling his instrument .
The front of the keyframe did not touch the keybed anymore, you can check that :
raise the dampers with the right pedal
push lightly on 3 white keys without playing them
WIth the other hand, in karate mode knock the keys vertically right near where the other fingers are and listen. If you hear an audible knock the action is under stress)
DO that near the blocks and in the middle of the instrument

Usually the touch is a little harder then, it is difficult to play glissandos, for instance, or to have the notes sing a lower strenght of play. Too much woody or noisy tone, while the musical ability of the instrument is not lost just closed.

I had a video from this pianists showing what happens.

Was able to instruct him to regulate the glide bolts enough (complete procedure) to get his action back to work. A local tech came afterthat and finished the job correctly, but it was rear the truth yet ! This customer did work in organ building so he had a rough idea of manual work on an acoustic instrument, that helped indeed.

Beet, I worked on a 190 today and found, what I think is, the same repetition issue on the 5th octave "E" key. With this piano the jack position was easily corrected by resetting the hammer line which had fallen about a 1/4" on the 5-6 surrounding hammers in that area. Took about two minutes and didn't have to remove the action from the piano.

Indeed if you shorten the hammer travel it fix many things, ; nevertheless it is the sign of something unusual, a grand may accept to have the hammer line a little down and stay functional.