 |
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
|
|
69 members (20/20 Vision, clothearednincompo, Colin Miles, bcalvanese, booms, 36251, Bruce Sato, Carey, AlkansBookcase, 9 invisible),
1,941
guests, and
259
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,129
1000 Post Club Member
|
OP
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,129 |
After discussing briefly in the other thread and seeing that this piece is still quite loved or has a "wow" factor... I felt it's time to debunk what looks like a virtuoso piece and instead requires just the right techniques.
First thing.
The pedal is NOT used until the double chord at the end of the arpeggios, there is NO crescendo and it's piano. not pianissimo and surely not forte. No jumping and no straight fingers, keep the hand aligned to the wrist, open up the thumb and arch all the other fingers nicely.
First of all: analyze the arpeggios and familiarize your hand with all the inversions...
so C# minor, G# major, C# major, F# minor, etc.
Practice until you can close the eyes and you can "see and feel" the right key combination... you need to be able to visualize on which keys you need to land in a glimpse
Second: thing about what is the fastest possible arpeggio... it's a block chord. is so fast that all the notes are together. Keep this thought because now you will practice the arpeggios as sequences of block chords until you can get to the right speed... keep the hand close to the keys, the required lateral movement is only a 3rd or a 4th... not a leap of 3 octaves.
Third: practice only the "thumb"... the thumb play, the other fingers just touch the right keys in a single movement (still as a block chord)
Fourth: start breaking the block chord: play the thumb and then the other 3 fingers together.
Fifth: break one more step: thumb, second finger and reposition the thumb immediately under the second finger, then play 3 and 5 or 4 and 5 depending on the inversion. This is critical because it allow you to have the thumb already in position for the next chord.... it won't happen in this sequence when you play at speed, will be smooth, but your brain won't have that sense of "anxiety" about not finding the next chord... the thumb is your "anchor" and is already in position.
Restart until you can do all of this pretty much by memory and at performance speed... no flat fingers... to keep nice arches, especially in the forth and fifth fingers, think about "grabbing" something.... some people don't have yet enough "strength" and the joint might want to collapse when playing at speed... pretty much making you lose speed.
Economy of movement is of the utmost importance. a key dip is about 10mm... if you are 3mm above the key, you already added 30% of travel to play the key... and pretty much 30% of time (not totally true because of acceleration but let's consider it in this way for now)
In this movement goes faster who moves less.
So recap:
Block chords are arpeggios at the speed of light and this is the main trick.
Second trick, the thumb goes to anchor to the next position as soon as he finish to play, and doesn't have to play loud because the accent is with the pinky.
Questions?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 140
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 140 |
thank you, during my time with this piece I studied many different recording and watched many videos and I believe as important as this information is, a video would compliment the explanation nicely.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,048
4000 Post Club Member
|
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,048 |
I tend to disagree, sor.
One of the many reasons for working on technique with a face to face teacher is the ability of the teacher to observe what you're doing versus what you should be doing. They have a lot of experience of this - though you do need a good one. What you need to copy is the intention, the idea behind the movement, not the movement itself, which may deceive all too readily.
Richard
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 223
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 223 |
What do you suppose Beethoven was thinking when composing this?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,129
1000 Post Club Member
|
|
OP
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,129 |
What do you suppose Beethoven was thinking when composing this? Honestly? to impress the ladies, as he did in a lot of his third movements, and to show his skills as a pianist.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,129
1000 Post Club Member
|
|
OP
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,129 |
thank you, during my time with this piece I studied many different recording and watched many videos and I believe as important as this information is, a video would compliment the explanation nicely. As zrtf90 said, it's pretty much impossible to extrapolate the "reason" behind a movement from a video. But, for example, Perahia is excellent when comes to economy of movement https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=352qLWqKN-Uso is Salman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw9gRVKV8bkbut there is a consideration to be made, this guys are seasoned pro, their fingers are strong enough to be in an almost straight position and relying on the joints but on the muscles to hold it. A "beginner" should keep the fingers more arched to develop that kind of strength and not go straight until certain milestones aren't achieved. It's pretty much impossible to assess if one is ready from a video or a chat, but is very possible to see when someone is NOT ready. What is necessary to do this movement at performance speed, without errors (or minimal) is slow deliberate practice and to have the hand "shapes" rock solid in your mind (that is the reason why play the block chords but also only the thumb shifting with the "ghost playing" of the other fingers)... your fingers should not "look for" the key, they should already be over it and play in separated times like Assume position Play the chord Release the chord Shift to the next position as quickly as possible. Verify it's correct and solidify the position Play the chord... each step deliberate and verify the finger shape for collapsing joints. then apply rhythmic variation to the practice, syncopated, group of 4... and so on... the usual bag of tricks to gain speed quickly. this system is not terribly different from what is necessary to perform Chopin op10 #1 or Op 25 #12, but it's different, it doesn't translate immediately.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 223
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 223 |
What do you suppose Beethoven was thinking when composing this? Honestly? to impress the ladies, as he did in a lot of his third movements, and to show his skills as a pianist. Sounds like his mind was in a good place. What would you suppose he was thinking in the first and second movements before the trying to impress? You think he was really questioning and fantasical?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,129
1000 Post Club Member
|
|
OP
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,129 |
What do you suppose Beethoven was thinking when composing this? Honestly? to impress the ladies, as he did in a lot of his third movements, and to show his skills as a pianist. Sounds like his mind was in a good place. What would you suppose he was thinking in the first and second movements before the trying to impress? You think he was really questioning and fantasical? From reading Beethoven biography, and a good number of letters, it's clear that he had developed a good taste in women. Of course the galateo of seduction and affairs in the times he lived was much more behind closed doors or something that people do, but they don't talk about... in a way they were much more libertines than now. His "problem" was falling in love with members of nobility who were in most cases already promised to some other noble and apparently a lot of encounters with lesser women in taverns... He was 100% human :-)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,048
4000 Post Club Member
|
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,048 |
He was probably contemplating his own demise. He was going deaf and knew it. The rhythm of the first movement was similar to the funeral march in his previous opus (26) and this was possibly intended as his own requiem. It was dedicated to Countess Giulietta Guicciardi and, apparently, the family were in no doubt as to its intended mood.
This sonata was written around the time of his Heiligenstadt Testament (1802) in which he was preparing himself for death.
Richard
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 223
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 223 |
I thought it sounded like he might be in a good frame of mind. I had a different impression than either of you have mentioned. I will read a little. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 347
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 347 |
After discussing briefly in the other thread and seeing that this piece is still quite loved or has a "wow" factor... I felt it's time to debunk what looks like a virtuoso piece and instead requires just the right techniques.
First thing.
The pedal is NOT used until the double chord at the end of the arpeggios, there is NO crescendo and it's piano. not pianissimo and surely not forte. No jumping and no straight fingers, keep the hand aligned to the wrist, open up the thumb and arch all the other fingers nicely.
First of all: analyze the arpeggios and familiarize your hand with all the inversions...
so C# minor, G# major, C# major, F# minor, etc.
Practice until you can close the eyes and you can "see and feel" the right key combination... you need to be able to visualize on which keys you need to land in a glimpse
Second: thing about what is the fastest possible arpeggio... it's a block chord. is so fast that all the notes are together. Keep this thought because now you will practice the arpeggios as sequences of block chords until you can get to the right speed... keep the hand close to the keys, the required lateral movement is only a 3rd or a 4th... not a leap of 3 octaves.
Third: practice only the "thumb"... the thumb play, the other fingers just touch the right keys in a single movement (still as a block chord)
Fourth: start breaking the block chord: play the thumb and then the other 3 fingers together.
Fifth: break one more step: thumb, second finger and reposition the thumb immediately under the second finger, then play 3 and 5 or 4 and 5 depending on the inversion. This is critical because it allow you to have the thumb already in position for the next chord.... it won't happen in this sequence when you play at speed, will be smooth, but your brain won't have that sense of "anxiety" about not finding the next chord... the thumb is your "anchor" and is already in position.
Restart until you can do all of this pretty much by memory and at performance speed... no flat fingers... to keep nice arches, especially in the forth and fifth fingers, think about "grabbing" something.... some people don't have yet enough "strength" and the joint might want to collapse when playing at speed... pretty much making you lose speed.
Economy of movement is of the utmost importance. a key dip is about 10mm... if you are 3mm above the key, you already added 30% of travel to play the key... and pretty much 30% of time (not totally true because of acceleration but let's consider it in this way for now)
In this movement goes faster who moves less.
So recap:
Block chords are arpeggios at the speed of light and this is the main trick.
Second trick, the thumb goes to anchor to the next position as soon as he finish to play, and doesn't have to play loud because the accent is with the pinky.
Questions? Thank you. This is good info, most of I already know, but some info I haven't learned or thought of yet. I have been interested in starting learning of a beethoven sonata, I am not sure moonlight would be the one, but it is good info to be of at hand when I do one day try to tackle it.
debussychopin.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,129
1000 Post Club Member
|
|
OP
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,129 |
Thank you. This is good info, most of I already know, but some info I haven't learned or thought of yet.
I have been interested in starting learning of a beethoven sonata, I am not sure moonlight would be the one, but it is good info to be of at hand when I do one day try to tackle it.
To me, Op 28 remains one of the best "Beginners" sonata for Beethoven... there is a lot of fantastic music and except the coda of the last movement, is not difficult at all.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 347
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 347 |
I agree with you that Moonlight is a great starter's sonata, but my problem is practical..
I own a brand new Henle Beethoven sonatas vol 1, and the binding is so tight (and the book itself is so thick, and this is the first book I have ever owned that is more than an inch thick) it is hard to keep the book open other than the few hundred pages right in the middle.
So, I am looking into those sonatas that are right there, seemingly tail end of sonata 4 (op7) through the opus 10 set and a little further (pathetique?).
Moonlight is smack right at the end of the book, it is virtually impossible to keep the book still at that section of the book !
debussychopin.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,640
1000 Post Club Member
|
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,640 |
debussychopin, I generally like to photocopy my scores if I'm getting them from a book. That way I can mark them up, add in fingerings or whatever, without damaging the source copy. Plus I don't have to worry about the bindings making it hard to keep the book open. Might be an option worth considering.
Nord Stage 2 HA88
Roland RD800
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 347
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 347 |
Thanks, I understand, just I would say I m lazy to run to the nearest Office depot (a chain store in U.S. where you can buy office supplies and do office handling stuff for a fee) and make copies of my book and all that...
I can get a clip (potato chip clip , big one) and just go about it that way.
anyways to get back on track, lot of the word track above in the first post can be applied to many of the faster movements of the other sonatas as well. I m more leaning towards op10-2 right now.
debussychopin.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,129
1000 Post Club Member
|
|
OP
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,129 |
I agree with you that Moonlight is a great starter's sonata, but my problem is practical..
I own a brand new Henle Beethoven sonatas vol 1, and the binding is so tight (and the book itself is so thick, and this is the first book I have ever owned that is more than an inch thick) it is hard to keep the book open other than the few hundred pages right in the middle.
So, I am looking into those sonatas that are right there, seemingly tail end of sonata 4 (op7) through the opus 10 set and a little further (pathetique?).
Moonlight is smack right at the end of the book, it is virtually impossible to keep the book still at that section of the book ! I have the same edition and I devastated the spine. It stays open at each sonata I studied. Ps the moonlight is op 27 n2. I don't think is a good starter sonata. I refer to op 28. The pastoral as good starter sonata. Not too easy, but no treacherous difficulties either.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 347
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 347 |
Ah. The 'pastorale' sonata, I see. Unfortunately, that one is in the second volume Henle I believe . It is not in mine. I recall a student classmate playing the first movement of the Pastorale last semester it does sound un-Beethoven-like in its melody but nevertheless interesting.
I'll have to go recheck my book to confirm it.
I just checked, the key of Dmaj of the pastorale is a key I have much difficulties in.
What do you think about op 10 no 2?
debussychopin.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,129
1000 Post Club Member
|
|
OP
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,129 |
Ah. The 'pastorale' sonata, I see. Unfortunately, that one is in the second volume Henle I believe . It is not in mine. I recall a student classmate playing the first movement of the Pastorale last semester it does sound un-Beethoven-like in its melody but nevertheless interesting.
I'll have to go recheck my book to confirm it.
I just checked, the key of Dmaj of the pastorale is a key I have much difficulties in.
What do you think about op 10 no 2? Op 10 #2 is pretty much on the same level of the pastoral sonata if not easier, the same goes for 10#1, 14#1 and 14#2... but you are wrong, the pastoral is the last sonata of volume 1 of the henle edition. What is interesting of the pastoral is the polyphonic textures in the same hand are more intricate than in the previous sonate. The op2 sonatas are also relatively easy... but they have some ridiculous trick that B. wrote for himself to impress... like the last movement of the first and some passagework in the second.
|
|
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,391
Posts3,349,282
Members111,634
| |
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
