Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum P. Tchaikovsky - Op.39 No.16 ???

This forum has a huge number of people with varied backgrounds and some with vast experience in music, so I'd like to put a question out here to see if anyone can shed a little light:

This piece is next on my to-do list, so I've studied it some.

This is P. Tchaikovsky - Op.39 No.16 (in a nice rendition byDr. Alan Huckleberry)


This is called 'Old French Song'. And I can't for the life of me figure out why. It is as 'russian' sounding as anything I've ever heard. I also hear nothing that spells 'france'.
I'm wondering if PT himself named it. I've searched high and low but come up empty on this subject.
In the same 'Album for the Young' he has a 'German Song' which is distinctly german in flavor, and an 'Italian Song' with Italian flavor, leading me to the conclusion that I must be missing something???
Anyone have any insight?

Another thing that bugs me: I was unfamiliar with this piece until I saw it on my list and went to look it up on YouTube to listen to it. And immediately (and still) I got the feeling that I have heard this theme or part of it somewhere else, but I can't pin it. It wouldn't be the first time a composer has 'recycled' a piece, or 'borrowed' from someone. It prompted me to listen through everything I've got in the way of Tchaikovsky (a lot) but with little luck.

Anybody recognize this from somewhere else?

It reminded me of some French early music, but I can't put my finger on the context, and I don't know if it's really nased on an original tune or is Tchaikovsky writing 'in the style of'. However, I also recognise it from the Maid of Orleans, which you can hear here from the 3'00" mark, where it definitely has a Russian flavour to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_uYBq7skUg

Purkoy.. That's it!!! Oh, thank you so much !! It was driving me a bit nuts.

They were both written around the same time so no telling which came first, but that's no matter.

So now, we have the 'Maid of Orleans' (which I'd totally forgotten) and the 'Old French Song'. So what both you and see as a 'strong Russian flavor' must have some connection to or root in French music??? Tchaikovsky uses French music in other symphonies, but for a clear reason (as in 1812 Overture). But this is different.
Interesting.

Maybe someone from France or with knowledge of French music can enlighten us???

Hmm, don't know if this is just pure coincidence, but the Op 39/16 in the link on the original post was nigglingly familiar, and whether there's a connexion I'm not sure, but I now know why it's familiar.

A couple of months ago I began learning a piece by Einaudi, called 'Le Onde'. There are two pieces in the book by that name, and one of them is quite short and subtitled 'Canzone popolare, Francia, 1500ca', which I began practising before the more familiar piece (which my teacher had set me). This 'Canzone popolare' does have clear echoes of the Tchaikovsky piece to me.

Purkoy, you really eased my mind. I was starting to wonder if my 'advanced years' were starting to play tricks on me, that I was imagining things. Very happy to know that I'm not (not in this case anyway) LOL

Purkoy, you were right again Just had a listen to that. So in fact Tchaikovsky simply stole a french folk song, thus the name. Interesting.

'Canzone popolare' does not have this strong Russian flavor though, but it still have some of the same 'feel'. This is where I, as just an avid amateur listener of music, come up short. There's probably a 'musical reason' for this.

Just realized that there's another. Op.39 No.18 'Neapolitan Song', is in fact 'Neapolitan Dance' from his ballet 'Swan Lake'. So I guess he simply collected these nice smaller pieces from his other works and (perhaps in a slightly simpler form) made his 'Album for the Young' from those. Interesting

Coincidentally, I'd bought a copy of the Tchaikovsky Album a few weeks ago, I think after seeing a reference to it somewhere here in PW, to see how it compared with the Schumann Album (that in fact was probably the thread topic anyway). I'd had a flick through the first couple of pages, but hadn't started on any, mainly as I'm trying not to lose focus on the pieces I've already been set. So when I saw this query, I thought I'd open the book, and give it a play, at least in the right hand anyway. Within seconds I was having a really strong sensation of deja vu (or should that be deja entendu?), and that the outline of the tune was so familiar that, even though the key was different, I was sure I'd played something like this recently.

Of course, it's still not identifying what the original might be, if both Tchaikovsky and Einaudi are borrowing from a common ancestor. It will be interesting to see if anyone else can shed more light on the origins here.

I downloaded the whole album from IMPLS, but have only looked at the 'French Song' and 'German Song' so far. Both I like very much. I'll be working on the 'French' next, and will have to concentrate on that. But later I will definitely return to this album

If it's of any relevence 'Le Onde' is Italian for "The Waves", which sums up the style of the Einaudi piece really well (I'm also learning it Purkoy).

So much of all music is borrowed and influenced by other sources, you'd have to be a super detective to work out all the origins.

Well done tracking this piece down!

This thread prompted me to open the Tchaikovsky Album and set to learning the No.16 piece, 'Old French Song'. I can now hear even more clearly what Jytte meant about it sounding so 'Russian'!

I can't put my finger on it, but it's like how you know someone is speaking Russian even though you don't know a word of the language. When I play the piece ('play' is an exaggeration, I'm still at the phase of slow-learning), I hear a continental 'early music' sounding popular tune, but there are Russian vapours seeping through the rests in the music.

When I was a youth, discovering classical music (I came from a background where classical music played no part), my first love was Tchaikovsky. Easy to understand why : big, romantic, melodic, intense, and a composer who would have made his fortune had he been born a few decades later for his peak to coincide with the big film scores of early Hollywood. But even without a grounding in the formalities of classical music, you get to have a feeling for the sound of a particular composer, a way of absorbing it by a kind of osmosis. Listening to the harmonies, I keep thinking that I've heard this one or that one before, in one of the symphonies, perhaps, or the big ballets. Fanciful, maybe, but it just oozes Tchaikovsky. And it's a very strange feeling, after all these years, to find myself playing a piece, by my first classical love, sometihng that half a century ago, I never imagined I'd ever be able to do.

Album for the Young, maybe ; but I'm pianistically young, and I'm loving it!

I bought the album too. Lots o` good stuff there to have fun with imo. This song does sound French to me, but with a Jewish flavour . . . there`s a humn called "The God of Abraham Praise" which uses a soundalike melody . . .

Purkoy, Glad to hear you found 'Old French Song'. I have just started to learn that as well, will take a while. As it's only my 2nd piece it's a challenge. But I love it!

Tchaikovsky was also my first first love in music, and still my favorite. Had to laugh at the thought of P.T. in Hollywood You are right, he would have been popular, and the movies all the better for it. I'm determined that 'German Song' will be on my list as well in the future, great piece. I enjoyed it very much in the Tchaikovsky recital, I think it was played by zrtf90, one of the best I've heard.

Maybe you'll upload the piece once you've finished it?? I'd love to hear

Try Schumann 68/16.

I played this awhile back and I think it sounds French. I'm thinking a smoky cafe and a chanteuse up on a small stage. Some of the notes evoke that slightly nasal effect some French singers use.

Stubbie, interesting how different people perceive music differently
When I think of smoky French cafe, only accordions (and some incredible music on those) and Edith Piaf comes to mind LOL

Edit: Hmmm, immediately after I wrote 'Edith Piaf' I started to hear some of her music in my head. And really, there's something there with that same feel

If you haven't already done so, listen to Mikhail Pletnev's recording of Opus 39 -- it's pretty spectacular.

I submitted this to a recital last year and in my comments I wondered the same thing- does it really sound French? The opinions were mixed, as I recall. In the end for me I think "Old Melody", it just sounds very nostalgic somehow. Anyhow, check out the Recital Index - there are a couple versions.

Personally, I really like cubusdk's playing of these pieces. Especially his 'German song' is great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fPOJEuPnUI

@ClassicLib Congrats!

Also, I completely agree with you. Pletnev's rendition of "Doll is ill" is nothing short of spectacular for such a simple small piece. Moving..

Oh and while cubusdk's playing is good, it's still in quite a different league.