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Hi!
As a pianists learning jazz/blues piano I find ensemble playing being a very interesting part of it. Classical piano on the other hand doesn't really guve me any oppertunity for ensemble playing. This I find a bit strange. I mean, doesn't classical pianists play together with other musicians instead of just playing solo all the time? Of course you wouldn't find jam sessions for baroque/classical music unless you invented one. What are your thoughts and experiences?

It depends on where you studied; academic education necessarily involves playing chamber music in an ensemble.

There is a huge amount of solo classical piano literature, and they're all 'complete' by themselves - frequently even evoking huge orchestral-like sounds from the instrument. Piano transcriptions of symphonies (by Liszt et al - including Beethoven's Choral symphony), songs etc give the solo pianist the opportunity to experience music originally composed for hundreds of musicians (or singers) with his ten fingers.

This is totally unlike jazz, blues etc, where the piano part is rarely complete, and the rhythm and bass line is normally provided by other musicians. Some jazz piano players never even play solo.

And classical chamber music with piano - say, a piano trio - is quite different in concept from a jazz trio. The parts are equally important (from the late classical period onwards), and all fully written out by the composer, of course. For instance, the cello provides a lot more than the 'bass line' - he's playing his own independent part. Have a listen to this mighty trio by Tchaikovsky:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qigMRy22m6A

As for my own experiences playing chamber music, my first teacher used to duet with me when I was in the beginner primers (more accurately, she was playing the teacher's accompaniment printed in the book, while I was playing the single line melody with both hands). A few years later, in high school, I had lots of opportunities to play with other musicians, and I formed a duo with a violinist of the same standard (ABRSM grade) as me in order to play the violin-and-piano repertoire. This was one of our favorite pieces to play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGFs7n6n3-8

I also used to play duets with another pianist of the same standard. Music like these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac1ugBRmpSI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-GizLKld0g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoy0W37sHRs

I understand the inherent nature of the piano. To basically encompass the whole chromatic spectrum as some sort of one-person-band. OP asked me my thoughts.
I think one looses much by not having the experience of playing music with others. I don't care what genre/style. I also understand people's reluctance. Similar to their reluctance to recitals. But what one gets is a life experience with holes in it. One will never know the feeling of playing ensemble unless one seeks it. Admittedly, I play many other instruments more "jam" friendly. But as one listens to orchestral arrangements, there's no doubt a piano has it's place. I am also of the opinion, the piano is one of the best accompaniments there's is. Matters not to me if it's comping an instrument or zinga. (zinga = musician's slang for a vocalist)

To avoid any doubt, my participation throughout the years in the course of chamber music as a violist and pianist has created a strong base to participate in jazz ensembles - exactly in the area of ability to listen to others and precisely play together.

If you are an adult beginner, or an adult re-learner who has not studied in an academic setting, then classical ensemble playing is very difficult to find

I myself was looking for the opportunity to play with non-professionals in the string quartet, and with great pleasure!

Learning to listen to each other is definitely a skill best learnt (or 'acquired') by actually playing in ensemble. No matter what kind of ensemble. But the more equal, the better, otherwise one person will be expecting the others to defer to him, no matter how incompetent his playing and sense of timing & rhythm is .

As in the YouTube links I've given in my previous posts, almost all the best classical musicians in the world try their hand at ensemble playing occasionally, no matter how big their star status as soloists.

Over the years, I've seen & heard bad examples - both in classical and in jazz. I think I'm lucky in that my first teacher played accompaniments ('duets') with me in every lesson, when I was still at the stage of playing simple one-finger melodies passing from one hand to the other. What I learnt from that was that I had to play in strict time - if I started fumbling to look for the notes, she would be ahead of me - and stay ahead of me. She never 'waited' for me to 'catch up' (- after all, I was supposed to have learnt that piece during the preceding week). And she wouldn't slow down (or speed up) just because I couldn't stick to the tempo I started with - so I soon learnt not to start too quickly. (A common problem with beginners is to start too quickly, and then have to slow down when the notes get more difficult in the next few bars).

By the time I was playing duets with friends some four years later, of course it wasn't just rhythm and tempo, it was also phrasing, dynamics & 'voicing' (is the melody clearly heard, and who is playing it?), blending, rubato etc. Not to mention having fun playing by ear and improvising together (in classical style) on the pop tunes of the day...........

Why not play duets with your teacher?

Like the ones I linked earlier? There's another poster in the Pianist Corner (Two Snowflakes) who does precisely that, including in student recitals - playing four-handed pieces with her teacher.

I think a problem people run into with classical ensemble playing (chamber music) is that you have to each spend time learning the piece before you can get together. So you have to find like minded people who want to play the same piece, spend time learning the individual parts, and then get together an play. In jazz and blues, you learn a common language and can have jam sessions where people site read pieces out of Real Books, or just play standards that everyone knows. The need to learn a piece in advance, in other words, may be a practical barrier that makes classical ensemble playing less likely to happen among hobbyists (as opposed to people at a conservatory).

That's true, and is a big drawback for classical pianists who don't know of any other like-minded fellow musicians. And there are no 'classical standards' that all classical musicians know, and can play at the drop of a hat. Not in chamber music, much less in anything else.

On the other hand, in a jazz ensemble, it's not an ensemble of equals - the drummer and bass player defer to the pianist (and saxophonist and trumpet player, if present), so how much 'accommodating' does the pianist have to do for his fellow musicians? He can probably do what he likes, and expect the others to follow his lead.

Why do you think the piano player is in the lead, more than any of the other instruments? That hasn't been my impression at jazz concerts I've been to, unless it's a group specifically formed and named for the pianist.

Watch these (and I just picked them out at random):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH3GSrCmzC8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAurNaZWMB8

One of those is Bill Evans, a jazz pianist about whom I would expect a group named for him to center. When you listen to him playing with Miles Davis instead, the balance is shifted.

The other is a piano trio, which again I would expect to center around the piano.

Although, even if the group is led by a pianist, there can be a lot more center than just the piano. Listen to the Duke Ellington or Count Basie bands. Or listen to Horace Silver's groups, where Silver uses the piano more as a rhythm instrument like the drums, binding the group together with rhythm but not dominating the proceedings.

Or, to get away from pianist-directed groups, listen to Louis Armstrong's groups. Armstrong is calling the shots, not Lil Hardin.

Did you read my previous post? - I said that the drummer and bass player defers to the pianist or trumpet player or saxophone player - in other words, the one(s) who play the tunes (and fills out the harmonies, in the case of piano).

Name me a jazz trio where the bass player or drummer is the star, and where the trio is named after him (it's almost always a him).

In classical trios (apart from early Haydn, when the piano trio was still in its infancy), everyone is equally important.

You've just answered your own question.

Did you actually listen to the Mendelssohn trio I linked? The difference is there right from the start.

I missed the part where you referred to the other instruments besides piano/bass/drums; I misread it as saying that the piano player calls the shots over everyone.

I've read your post again to catch the parts I missed, and I still think it's an oversimplification. The front line relies on the rhythm section for an energetic groove; the drum and bass players get a chance to solo like the other players; and for a group led by a drummer where the drumming (to me at least) is definitely a key feature holding it all together, listen to Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers. And even if you discount the bass and drums, if there are multiple players in the front line, in a good group they're interacting. Even if they're not playing at the same time, they're picking up ideas to weave into their own solos.

Even just piano and bass let's say, the bass is supposed to be accorded the respect to lay down the bass line without the pianist stepping on him.

No, it's not counterpoint or four-part harmony, but to me I experience all members of a jazz group as being important, and needing to pay attention to each other.

I'll listen again; I was listening at first with the wrong thing in mind, thinking you were trying to make some totally different point than what you meant.

It is too one-sided view. Try to come to the jam , not knowing at least the harmony of songs; and in the case of bebop tunes themselves! Playing piano in a jazz ensemble requires preliminary work on harmony, melody and improvisation - exactly what I was doing before was going to ensemble rehearsals. And on the jam pianist brings the accumulated baggage. Here I used the work habits on classic pieces (quality of execution).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJn2ubRUV9Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg5YU3HB7JA

Make friends with a singer or a person who plays a single-line instrument like the violin or flute, and you'll find yourself doing a lot of ensemble playing in a hurry